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Thou shalt not make graven images

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posted on Jul, 10 2010 @ 07:12 PM
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reply to post by The Riley Family
 



Yes it's ok. So what is the problem? Is the opposition too much to handle? Do you not have good enough evidence to convince the truth seekers? Or are you more interested in spending time disproving something rather than wanting to know the facts?


Of course its ok to challenge, but certainly provide evidence and facts - That’s the thing with God, there are no facts, only enumerating proliferating religions and cults claiming the knowledge of what God wants from them, where is the evidence that a God intervenes in human affairs? That’s what we are waiting for? Quoting scriptures is no argument to warrant a belief in the unknowable, God is also an infinite regression, who created God, if he is the creator?

Telling me to provide facts for proof that he DOES NOT exist, is like saying “there are invisible men living in your anus"..... you have no means to prove me wrong, so my theory is credible and almost likely true, thats how you guys reason, and its a joke.


Its a fact that Atheists know Christianity does not follow after what the bible says very well, if at all. Examples: Idolatry, this subject of this thread. Also they are supposed to love their enemy though they judge Atheists to an eternity of suffering and seem to be ok with that though they know they shouldn't judge unless they want to be judged themselves. List goes on and on.


That’s the thing, deists believe in a creator, but they do not judge others based on this creator? For how could any possible human know this God wishes or demands of human affairs? That’s why I challenge your belief, when it intimidates children and people who wish to live their lives a certain way, it gives people the warrant to call Atheists unrighteous, for being unwilling to accept theories without sufficient evidence. That’s why atheists judge theists. Because they claim knowledge in the unknowable, as if they know that ham is bad, or that homosexuality is wrong or should be oppressed.


We believe the bible actually supports many of the things Atheists believe only if they understand that they may have to give some credit to the writers for having more of an understanding than they thought. It is commonly brought up that the books of the bible have many discrepancies between them, fine. But why turn a blind eye to the fact that they corroborate with each other quite a lot as well.


Please do not say this, atheists do not believe in God, so the things being said in the bible we do not believe in, not to kill, is an obvious thing, innately to humanity, we don’t have to be told this to be wrong, to know it is wrong. Its common human empathy

We’re not turning a blind eye, but merely showing you it is man made, no one can know what God wants, if they could, and could easily prove it, Atheism would have little credibility. The fact is these religions instruct you to live your life, it is absolute, your “bad” your going to hell, your good your going to “heaven” there’s no challenging what is good and what is bad… Is homosexuality bad? Is love bad? See how religion isn’t open to the same challenges and democracy in secular society?

We aren’t fighting Deists belief in a God, but the religious theist belief that that God intervenes in human affairs which can often control people, and tell them how to live their life, making them servile, deluding their minds of ideas of what God is, God is someone who doesn’t like ham, or homosexuals, or rights of women, read your bible if you don’t agree with these points. How can they possibly know these things? Because its written in scripture, well so is Santa Claus, written on cards, does that make him real?


It is surprising how even the scientific minds don't see this. Don’t talk about science when your religion denies scientific findings.


Don’t talk about science when you refuse to provide evidence on how you know God wants us to be servile to him, that he doesn’t want you to be gay, that he doesn’t want you to wear mixed fabrics. Religion is absolute, theres no questioning the beliefs, that’s not science, that’s not progression.


Interestingly the things Christianity does they said they would do. Even making idols and worshiping them. Have you checked out whether the name Jesus adds up to 616 using the Hebrew language and numbers and the same technique the name Nero Caesar and a plethora of other names have been done.


Explain the significance of this, and how it bears any significance to your argument on whether there is a God, and another argument for how or why you think God intervenes in human affairs, and has personal demands and wishes of you and your life.


Try it and prove at least this to be right or wrong. Or are you concerned your "wasting your time" because you may find out it's true and aren't really willing to accept that.


…….Prove my theory of invisible pixies floating about your head isn’t true, prove Santa Claus isn’t true and prove they don’t have personal wishes of your life and how you life it, prove it wrong, or are you just unwilling to find out it’s true? That’s what you sound like to me and other intelligent people observing arguments like that. Provide sufficient evidence, the burden of proof is on the man who claims he knows Gods wishes. Or that God exists.


That would sound very religious like to us. So then how did the writers know the name Jesus would add up to 616?


Maybe it was designed and written that way? Is that not a possibility? Or are we just oblivious to the real truth you guys keep talking about? Clearly we are worlds apart on views and reasoning.

The reason we oppose it because theres no proof to suggest there is a creator with wishes over your life, theres nothing to fear but the concept that man has created to make you fear, theres no way of prooving it, and it is control over people. Thats why i am anti-theist, not anti-deist. Look up theist and deist and atheist arguments against them if you want a greater understanding of our views and opposition to religion.

[edit on 10/7/10 by awake_and_aware]




posted on Jul, 12 2010 @ 09:06 AM
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The law is spiritual!



New International Version (©1984)
We know that the law is spiritual; but I am unspiritual, sold as a slave to sin.
New Living Translation (©2007)
So the trouble is not with the law, for it is spiritual and good. The trouble is with me, for I am all too human, a slave to sin.

English Standard Version (©2001)
For we know that the law is spiritual, but I am of the flesh, sold under sin.

New American Standard Bible (©1995)
For we know that the Law is spiritual, but I am of flesh, sold into bondage to sin.

International Standard Version (©2008)
For we know that the law is spiritual, but I am merely human, sold as a slave to sin.

GOD'S WORD® Translation (©1995)
I know that God's standards are spiritual, but I have a corrupt nature, sold as a slave to sin.

King James Bible
For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.

American King James Version
For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.

American Standard Version
For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.

Bible in Basic English
For we are conscious that the law is of the spirit; but I am of the flesh, given into the power of sin.

Douay-Rheims Bible
For we know that the law is spiritual; but I am carnal, sold under sin.

Darby Bible Translation
For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am fleshly, sold under sin.

English Revised Version
For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.

Webster's Bible Translation
For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.

Weymouth New Testament
For we know that the Law is a spiritual thing; but I am unspiritual--the slave, bought and sold, of sin.

World English Bible
For we know that the law is spiritual, but I am fleshly, sold under sin.

Young's Literal Translation
for we have known that the law is spiritual, and I am fleshly, sold by the sin;




[edit on 12-7-2010 by etherical waterwave]



posted on Jul, 13 2010 @ 11:06 AM
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reply to post by etherical waterwave
 


Sorry i wasn't born with sin, i don't believe Jesus died for my sins, nor will i be bound by his death, if i was there i would have tried to prevent it (pah barbaric people). Nor do i believe that he was the son of "God" as god cannot be proved, nor can his mothers immactulate conception.

Religion, "you were born a sick human being, god created you, bow down to him, follow his "rules" or be sent to hell, god damn sinner"

Wife beater "make my food woman, if you don't: i'll beat you, and after you've made the food, worship me for not beating you"



posted on Jul, 28 2010 @ 09:01 AM
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Originally posted by awake_and_aware
reply to post by The Riley Family
 

That’s the thing with God, there are no facts, only enumerating proliferating religions and cults claiming the knowledge of what God wants from them, where is the evidence that a God intervenes in human affairs? That’s what we are waiting for? Quoting scriptures is no argument to warrant a belief in the unknowable


Actually there is facts, however, just like I pointed out before. many don't look at the facts. They only see what motivates their personal concepts. The work our family does helps people but the medical field, Govt, family, most others don't believe what we do is possible. In fact rather than supporting it, or at least letting it be, they cause a lot of adversity. Though proof also lies in the success they ignore it. Also I remember when the "hippies" advocated fruits and vegetables, whole grains, exercise, sunshine and fresh air, etc... for better health. They were mistreated because they lacked proof. However, they were right all along. Though the proof was there as well those of science at the time wouldn't accept it. Why not?


Telling me to provide facts for proof that he DOES NOT exist, is like saying “there are invisible men living in your anus"..... you have no means to prove me wrong, so my theory is credible and almost likely true, thats how you guys reason, and its a joke.


We never stated this. This is not how we have reasoned. Your too much into Christian/bible bashing to be objective it seems. The bible does exist doesn't it?


That’s the thing, deists believe in a creator, but they do not judge others based on this creator? For how could any possible human know this God wishes or demands of human affairs? That’s why I challenge your belief, when it intimidates children and people who wish to live their lives a certain way, it gives people the warrant to call Atheists unrighteous, for being unwilling to accept theories without sufficient evidence. That’s why atheists judge theists. Because they claim knowledge in the unknowable, as if they know that ham is bad, or that homosexuality is wrong or should be oppressed.


You seem to want to challenge our belief, however, I don't think you know what that belief is that your challenging. Typical though. It is like flailing in the dark.


Please do not say this, atheists do not believe in God, so the things being said in the bible we do not believe in, not to kill, is an obvious thing, innately to humanity, we don’t have to be told this to be wrong, to know it is wrong. Its common human empathy


We did not say anything about God in that statement, however, it is reasonable to point out the bible does exist, doesn't it? There are many things in it that one can easily see makes sense, as you pointed out.


We’re not turning a blind eye, but merely showing you it is man made, no one can know what God wants


If he exists why not? It seems more ridiculous to think that if God exists no one would know what he wants as if he would be incapable of communicating with others. If the capability exists why not commmunicate?


We aren’t fighting Deists belief in a God, but the religious theist belief that that God intervenes in human affairs which can often control people, and tell them how to live their life, making them servile, deluding their minds of ideas of what God is, God is someone who doesn’t like ham, or homosexuals, or rights of women, read your bible if you don’t agree with these points. How can they possibly know these things? Because its written in scripture, well so is Santa Claus, written on cards, does that make him real?


Exactly, if a group is willing to teach fairy tales how does their interpretation of scripture hold any ground? It shouldn't especially since their doctrines are not bible based. Even though you don't like what the bible, "God", says doesn't mean it isn't true. Even Christianity doesn't like what it says, they don't even believe it themselves. Fact is the scriptures point this out.


Religion is absolute, theres no questioning the beliefs, that’s not science, that’s not progression.


Really? Really?

No not really. Isn't that statement rather ridiculaous? Atheists question religious beliefs continuously. So Atheists aren't about science or progression?


Explain the significance of this, and how it bears any significance to your argument on whether there is a God, and another argument for how or why you think God intervenes in human affairs, and has personal demands and wishes of you and your life.


Simply put the bible is supposed to be prophetic. If the prophecies ring true it should at the least give some validity worthy of further study.


…….Prove my theory of invisible pixies floating about your head isn’t true, prove Santa Claus isn’t true and prove they don’t have personal wishes of your life and how you life it, prove it wrong, or are you just unwilling to find out it’s true?


Your theory is based on a Christian belief. They believe in fairies, incapable of flying flying animals, Santa Clause, etc... So it appears your own theories actually support Christianity.


Provide sufficient evidence, the burden of proof is on the man who claims he knows Gods wishes. Or that God exists. The reason we oppose it because theres no proof to suggest there is a creator


First off we will repeat again what we have been saying. We are not trying to prove or disprove God. That is what you are trying to do. We are only pointing out that Christianity is not bible following. though they condemn others for not following it they don't follow it theselves. That is a fact. One proof is their worship of idols.

[edit on 28-7-2010 by The Riley Family]



posted on Jul, 28 2010 @ 02:23 PM
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off-topic post removed to prevent thread-drift


 



posted on Jul, 29 2010 @ 12:48 AM
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off-topic post removed to prevent thread-drift


 



posted on Jul, 29 2010 @ 12:16 PM
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off-topic post removed to prevent thread-drift


 



posted on Jul, 29 2010 @ 12:51 PM
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Because quite simply the New Testament (which the images, artifacts i.e. crosses are inspired from) superceeds the Old Testament (where that commandment is sourced).



posted on Jul, 29 2010 @ 01:44 PM
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Originally posted by SteveR
Because quite simply the New Testament (which the images, artifacts i.e. crosses are inspired from) superceeds the Old Testament (where that commandment is sourced).


It's is more like mankind does what it wants to do regardless of what God says.

Acts
17:24 The God who made the world and all things in it, he, being Lord of heaven and earth, doesn’t dwell in temples made with hands, 17:25 neither is he served by men’s hands, as though he needed anything, seeing he himself gives to all life and breath, and all things. 17:26 He made from one blood every nation of men to dwell on all the surface of the earth, having determined appointed seasons, and the boundaries of their dwellings, 17:27 that they should seek the Lord, if perhaps they might reach out for him and find him, though he is not far from each one of us. 17:28 ‘For in him we live, and move, and have our being.’ As some of your own poets have said, ‘For we are also his offspring.’ 17:29 Being then the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Divine Nature is like gold, or silver, or stone, engraved by art and design of man. 17:30 The times of ignorance therefore God overlooked. But now he commands that all people everywhere should repent

Acts 19:26 You see and hear, that not at Ephesus alone, but almost throughout all Asia, this Paul has persuaded and turned away many people, saying that they are no gods, that are made with hands.

Romans
1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, 1:19 because that which is known of God is revealed in them, for God revealed it to them. 1:20 For the invisible things of him since the creation of the world are clearly seen, being perceived through the things that are made, even his everlasting power and divinity; that they may be without excuse. 1:21 Because, knowing God, they didn’t glorify him as God, neither gave thanks, but became vain in their reasoning, and their senseless heart was darkened. 1:22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools, 1:23 and traded the glory of the incorruptible God for the likeness of an image of corruptible man, and of birds, and four-footed animals, and creeping things. 1:24 Therefore God also gave them up in the lusts of their hearts to uncleanness, that their bodies should be dishonored among themselves, 1:25 who exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen.

1 Corinthians
8:4 Therefore concerning the eating of things sacrificed to idols, we know that no idol is anything in the world, and that there is no other God but one. 8:5 For though there are things that are called “gods,” whether in the heavens or on earth; as there are many “gods” and many “lords;” 8:6 yet to us there is one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we for him; and one Lord, Yeshua the Messiah, through whom are all things, and we live through him.

10:5 However with most of them, God was not well pleased, for they were overthrown in the wilderness. 10:6 Now these things were our examples, to the intent we should not lust after evil things, as they also lusted. 10:7 Neither be idolaters, as some of them were. As it is written, “The people sat down to eat and drink, and rose up to play.” 10:8 Neither let us commit sexual immorality, as some of them committed, and in one day twenty-three thousand fell. 10:9 Neither let us test the Lord, as some of them tested, and perished by the serpents. 10:10 Neither grumble, as some of them also grumbled, and perished by the destroyer. 10:11 Now all these things happened to them by way of example, and they were written for our admonition, on whom the ends of the ages have come. 10:12 Therefore let him who thinks he stands be careful that he doesn’t fall. 10:13 No temptation has taken you except what is common to man. God is faithful, who will not allow you to be tempted above what you are able, but will with the temptation also make the way of escape, that you may be able to endure it. 10:14 Therefore, my beloved, flee from idolatry. 10:15 I speak as to wise men. Judge what I say. 10:16 The cup of blessing which we bless, isn’t it a sharing of the blood of Messiah? The bread which we break, isn’t it a sharing of the body of Messiah? 10:17 Because there is one loaf of bread, we, who are many, are one body; for we all partake of the one loaf of bread. 10:18 Consider Israel according to the flesh. Don’t those who eat the sacrifices participate in the altar? 10:19 What am I saying then? That a thing sacrificed to idols is anything, or that an idol is anything? 10:20 But I say that the things which the Gentiles sacrifice, they sacrifice to demons, and not to God, and I don’t desire that you would have fellowship with demons. 10:21 You can’t both drink the cup of the Lord and the cup of demons. You can’t both partake of the table of the Lord, and of the table of demons. 10:22 Or do we provoke the Lord to jealousy? Are we stronger than he?

1 John
5:21 Little children, keep yourselves from idols.

Revelation
9:20 The rest of mankind, who were not killed with these plagues, didn’t repent of the works of their hands, that they wouldn’t worship demons, and the idols of gold, and of silver, and of brass, and of stone, and of wood; which can neither see, nor hear, nor walk.

The post that was previously erased only asked if "lol" was one ha or many ha ha ha. No biggie. Don't think it was off topic since it was awake and awares response to our on-topic post. Could a little laughter be considered an acceptable response? We just wanted clarification how much of a response it actually was. So nobody missed any sparks on our part.

[edit on 29-7-2010 by The Riley Family]

[edit on 29-7-2010 by The Riley Family]



posted on Jul, 31 2010 @ 08:07 AM
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reply to post by The Riley Family
 


Admin, can we have some spam control in here?

Thanks

I wouldn't be given a chance if i created a scripture of Satan and started mindlessly babbling words from the scripture (written by man, not satan, same with all the abrahamic religinos: Islam, Christianity, Judism, all written by man, not God, FACT)

If your going to use your bible as a reference in support of God (completely biased and unfalsifiable btw) then at least provide a detailed commentry analysing or interpretting these archaic views and social conformities.

[edit on 31/7/10 by awake_and_aware]



posted on Jul, 31 2010 @ 10:48 AM
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reply to post by awake_and_aware
 


Many do include their commentary on the documents. However, we think the documents speak clearly enough themselves.

The person we were answering their post said their idolatry was based on New Testament which superseded the Old Testament. We showed the New Testament also is clear about abstaining from idolatry which includes "Thou Shalt Not Make Graven Images".

If the scriptures we quoted to make that point clear were not clear enough we can definitely add commentary. We don't think that is necessary when the only commentary we would make would be exactly what it says. It is what it is. Our commentary doesn't change or twist things around it just agrees what it being said.

The person we responded to thought they could justify idolatry because the New Testament superseded the Old Testament which they felt, evidently, it did not direct one to abstain from it. So we showed it does direct to abstain and also says it does not supersede the Old Testament but that those of the time were an example for us. Regardless if one believes in God or not the point is the person was incorrect in their assumption.

As you may have read the New Testament clearly says to "not worship idols" and supports the Old Testament's direction on the subject. So if the New Testament supersedes the Old testament our point is being made clear. They do not follow the New Testament or the Old Testament. They tell Atheists they are going to hell to burn forever while they themselves make graven images and do not conform the the very book they use to condemn others with.



posted on Jul, 31 2010 @ 03:36 PM
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reply to post by The Riley Family
 


Whats the justification for reading these scriptures as if they're relevant to our society? That it is the word of God? proove it.

It is obviously clear the rules and conformities in all of the abrahamic religions; Christianity, Juduism, and especially Islam are truelly out of date with the times. If you don't believe in all of the words of God, why label yourself or your children with that belief, why put your trust in it. Why cause them to have prejiduce to other members of our species?

Tell me, what are your views on homosexuality?
Women's equality?
Worshipping another God? (that one breaks the first 3 commandments)

If you don't agree on these matters - You are causing yourself to judge people and segregate yourself from people in our society, why should that be respected in our secular society? Why separate yourself from the community? Why call our dedes evil, when they are condoned by our democratic society?

It's a tragedy that in this day and age, the age of technology and logic, scientific method, evidence, its application to help our lives, that we still have these irrational beliefs distracting us from the truth that is out there, a goal that we can ALL unite together in.

[edit on 31/7/10 by awake_and_aware]



posted on Aug, 1 2010 @ 08:54 AM
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reply to post by awake_and_aware
 


This thread is basing its question on something written in scripture and directing it to those who supposedly adhere to those scriptures. It seems to reference the fact that they don't adhere to them and we agree. We are using the same scriptures Christians and others claim they believe in to prove they don't follow them, hence making graven images, and we are doing so in the hopes they will rethink their stance; especially since they condem everyone else who doesn't adhere to them the way they think they should.


Originally posted by catwhoknows
I would like to ask people who believe in God and Jesus, who say "Thou shalt not make graven images", how that believe that they should?
Why do you make graven images?
The whole Greek nation makes graven images.
The Catholics make graven images.


We think your asking reasonable and valid questions. We think you do so out of sincerety and we would like to answer them. We feel it would be better to U2U our response since we will end up off this thread's topic and we would like to respectively conform to ATS policies & procedures. You can post our response if you feel it is on topic.



[edit on 1-8-2010 by The Riley Family]



posted on Aug, 1 2010 @ 09:03 AM
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reply to post by The Riley Family
 


Yes this debate is about graven images, ....but it's ok for Christians to make crosses, sculptures of Jesus and other "divine" shrines.

And its gives Christians the justification for holding prejiduce against a Muslim or a Jew who has complely different graven images or myself who might want to have the freedom of expression to make a graven image, so what, i would break another commandment and envy my neighbour, or covet my neighbor, so what,

I can't believe in this day and age that people actually take this nonsense literally and actually think that heeding it's words it will prevent hellfire or other such babbel.

And as for the almighty God, why do you think they don't want graven images, why not? Because people know that god is invisible, i.e. not anywhere to be seen, at all, no proof, no evidence.

No philosopher, atronomer, physisist, scientist, theologian has ever demonstrated the evidence for a cosmological dicitator, ever, its never going to happen and it never will, he is the God of the Gaps, and hides everytime science learns more.



[edit on 1/8/10 by awake_and_aware]



posted on Aug, 1 2010 @ 02:41 PM
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Originally posted by awake_and_aware
reply to post by The Riley Family
 


Yes this debate is about graven images, ....but it's ok for Christians to make crosses, sculptures of Jesus and other "divine" shrines.


This is what the whole point is about. It is not whether you or anyone believes in God or not. It is about whether Christianity actually holds true to what they say they believe. Why? Because it is the same standard they judge others by. What right does one have to judge another especially since they are holding others to a standard they don't even live by themselves. They overweigh others with burdens that they can't even carry themselves. On top of that the very book they use to judge others they think they can use to justify themselves though they do the very same things they are judging other for. That is a fact and the very book they use says "When you say they are wicked and should be punished, you are condemning yourself, for you who judge others do these very same things."

Lets put into context who he is talking about.

When Christians say Atheists are wicked and should be punished, Christians are condemning themselves, for Christians who judge Atheists do these very same things.

Making graven images for example. (staying on topic)

So if an Atheist is condemned for doing good deeds not in the name of God what should become of a Christian for doing evil deeds in the name of their God? For they claim they themselves are sinners and the bible says whoever has NOT SINNED cast the first stone. As the story goes at least the men of those days were wise enough to walk away and Christ did not even judge the woman.

So Christians should ask themselves, what would Christ do? Judge not lest ye be judged.

If you are a sinner you have no right to judge someone else for their sins, period. And if you have been forgiven your sins you have even less of an excuse for holding theirs against them.

If Atheists didn't scorn the "writings of men" so much they could use them to quiet their rivals down quite a bit. Those guys were a bit wiser than the average bear.

The rest of your post we will cover elsewhere.



posted on Aug, 1 2010 @ 05:11 PM
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reply to post by The Riley Family
 


Sins are subjective and arbitrary, as they confirm to the subject morality of the preachings in the bible. There is no "right" or "wrong" only a periceved right and wrong.

Just as in some cultures sex with a 12 year old is ok, or "right" but in my country it is not, in some religions its "right" to eat ham, in some its considered a sin or "unclean". Some tribes it is ok to cannibilise as their survival justifies the means. Morality is subjective, not objective. It's only objective because you believe in God, because man wrote some words in a book.

Killing and stealing can be rationalised with empathy, or sympathy, some may consider this case of morality to be objective, but it is still subjective. Animals kill subject to their survival.

....And yes, this is about graven images, my point being what a pointless rule to subject a human too, as if that improves our ethics or human behaviour, it is an irrelevant commandment. The first 3 of which, are about your specific God's own jelousy and hatred for other religions, also irrelevant to human kindness and understanding. Just fear and submission.

What i'm saying is that with the exception of killing, stealing, and cheating (adultary) on your spouse (without permission) all of the commandments are dumb, and illogical. I only state killing, stealing, and cheating as acceptable moral guides... because these are obvious and again sympathy and empathy will guide our moral subjectivity due to emotional rationality. Covetting your neighbour is illogical as well, as your neighbour could have knowledge or good friends, giving you something to aspire to.

So the commandments are a form of "CONTROL" and can be understood as being a fachist absolutist dictatorship where the invisible supernatural being hands out and dictates what is "right" and "wrong".

God commanded Abraham to kill his son, is that morally acceptable? Do you think it is? Just because God said to sacrifice him?

So, you wanna talk about graven images? Lets hear some of your thoughts and opinions on that matter.



[edit on 1/8/10 by awake_and_aware]



posted on Aug, 1 2010 @ 09:03 PM
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Originally posted by awake_and_aware
reply to post by The Riley Family
 


Sins are subjective and arbitrary, as they confirm to the subject morality of the preachings in the bible. There is no "right" or "wrong" only a periceved right and wrong.

....And yes, this is about graven images, my point being what a pointless rule to subject a human too, as if that improves our ethics or human behaviour, it is an irrelevant commandment.


Yes it is about graven images but not just any old graven images. It is obviously scriptually based and directed towards Christians that claim adherence to those scriptures. From what we gather you are accepting of Christians or anyone else making or worshiping images, idols, and the like, that has been understood all along. You just don't want them to shove it down your throat that your going to hell for doing it, unless of course your bowing down to theirs.

The point is Christians don't think anyone else should because their scriptures say so. The scriptures themselves are not what is in contention in this thread. Christians judge others to hell for an eternity for doing as such while THEY THEMSELVES MAKE AND WORSHIP IDOLS. It is the old "do as we say not as we do". Are Atheists concerned about using the scriptures to point out these things because they think others may view that as validating them. Guilt by association? Bottom line is this is not whether you condone making or worshiping idols. It is whether you do it and then judge others to hell for doing the same thing you are doing.

In a sense it is asking Christians who make and worship graven images if they are willing to validate the bible, which would bring their own condemnation onto themselves, or to invalidate the bible which would also bring upon themselves their own condemnation. As far as an Atheist is concerned they don't view it as a condemnation but it sure would get the Christians off their back because the Christians own testimony would judge themselves. This is not the only thing they do contrary to their own scriptures as you very well know. They say you can "fight a fire with fire".

Thanks again by the way for not getting into gross name calling and personal character bashing. We appreciate what seems to be sincerety to your cause and appreciate your courage for your perception of things.

[edit on 1-8-2010 by The Riley Family]



posted on Aug, 1 2010 @ 10:56 PM
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Originally posted by catwhoknows
I would like to ask people who believe in God and Jesus, who say "Thou shalt not make graven images", how that believe that they should?

Why do you make graven images?

The whole Greek nation makes graven images.

The Catholics make graven images.


The Catholic bible has that commandment removed, in favor of an added one about coveting.



posted on Aug, 2 2010 @ 04:00 PM
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Originally posted by NOTurTypical

Originally posted by catwhoknows
I would like to ask people who believe in God and Jesus, who say "Thou shalt not make graven images", how that believe that they should?

Why do you make graven images?

The whole Greek nation makes graven images.

The Catholics make graven images.


The Catholic bible has that commandment removed, in favor of an added one about coveting.


We do believe Catholicism and its members practice idolatry, but so do her children, however, any claims about them removing a commandment from the scriptures is erroneous. Why do her own offspring have such a hatred for her? As if condemning her is ever going to justify them?

The contents of the Ten Commandments written in the bibles are the same for all denominations of Christianity. The only difference is the enumeration.

[edit on 2-8-2010 by The Riley Family]



posted on Aug, 3 2010 @ 01:44 PM
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reply to post by NOTurTypical
 


Another pointless command to subject a human to, coveting is natural and is in us all whether we try to prevent it or not. God created us with the capacity to covert, or at least the brain to covet, and restricts us from using it or would codemn us to hell if we were to refuse to abide.

Covetting is the only command that supresses and convicts a human of thought; What they think inside the privacy of their skull.

As if covetting someone's work, reputation, and even materials possessions isn't a form of aspiration, motivation and inspiration (but the bible does mention livestock, and that it should not be covetted) What happens if you want to raise stock to make milk or eggs? Thats a pretty good thing to envy and aspire to.

Have a look at Christopher Hitchen's take on the 10 commandments, what do you think about his own set?

www.youtube.com...

[edit on 3/8/10 by awake_and_aware]




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