Bloody Sunday Inquiry to rule killings unlawful?

Originally posted by BANANAMONTANA

Originally posted by Anam Gra
Doesnt sound like you've moved on pal!! The point being that McGuinness and Adams stepped up to the plate in their community when their community needed them, in the face of oppression and sectarianism. Through the IRA's campaign the nationalist people of the North have reached some semblance of justice and fairness in all walks of life.

not your pal! dont know you from adam ,,

Great men alright those two, mc guinness hasn't even the balls to tell the truth of his actions that day... still claims expenses from westminster alright..man of morals .. pull the other one
inspiring..



riddle me this re bloody Sunday what was
Gerald Donaghey doing with nail bombs n his pocket... building a shed?



Gerald Donaghey’s clothingnail bombs

The nail bomb from the left trouser pocket consisted of black adhesive tape wrapped around 37 4-inch round wire nails, which weighed 1lb 1oz. The nails had two different headstamps. The bomb measured about 4½ inches with a diameter of 2 inches. On the inside of the tape there were a few small pieces of explosive residue. Alan Hall’s assistant noted that the bomb seemed to have been “made and left lying around for a few weeks because the nails are corroded and this has stuck to the inside of the tape”.1

Its been documented in witness testimony that Gerry Donaghey had no nailbombs on his person before the murdering brits got their hands on him. Why shouldnt McGuiness and Adams claim expenses, they were democratically elected representatives, with a very clear mandate, are we assuming you're no fan of the democratic process or would you rather that only British and union-orientated representative are elected??

Originally posted by strangleholder1
reply to post by Anam Gra

 

You and the OP have a cheek spreading lies and telling people to move on, when its your IRA still trying to start the troubles up again.

Only last night 17th June, yet another car bomb left outside a police station....

Car bomb blast outside Police station...

STEPHEN CARROL 48 N.I. Policeman...

Just so you know when the family left flowers where Stephen was gunned down by a bunch of chav cowards, The IRA scum burnt them....

Tell your side to Fu*king move on.....




Not telling you any lies, I can only speak of my own perspective, Ive already said that peace would be my preference. I hope you can hear that. However I do understand the perspective of the dissident republicans also, that Ireland has suffered significantly at the hands murdering brits, Bloody Sunday is an example, I think its wonderful that we have at last benefitted from some justice in relation to that, grudgingly and 38 years later, but I suppose we will have to be doing with that. But my understanding of how the dissidents feel is that if the Brits are in Ireland, they will suck our country dry and subjugate and oppress our people, as they have done in so many countries, therefore get them out by means of a guerilla war, which is the only means available to them. As I say Im looking at peace and cant really speak for any other person. I cant tell anybody anything, I can only put my own point of view across. You see, I would suggest that you're kind of generalisation is of little value, surely we should all be saying that peace is the goal. The us and them mentality has kept this conflict going for over 40 years. Lets try another way, what do you think? By the way, well spoken Trout.

reply to post by BANANAMONTANA



Excuse me but when did I say I supported those that were responsible for the Omagh bomb?

Thats right, I did'nt. Have you read any of my replies? I do not support IRA splinter groups.

Originally posted by strangleholder1
reply to post by Anam Gra

 

You and the OP have a cheek spreading lies and telling people to move on, when its your IRA still trying to start the troubles up again.

Only last night 17th June, yet another car bomb left outside a police station....

Car bomb blast outside Police station...

STEPHEN CARROL 48 N.I. Policeman...

Just so you know when the family left flowers where Stephen was gunned down by a bunch of chav cowards, The IRA scum burnt them....

Tell your side to Fu*king move on.....











[edit on 18-6-2010 by strangleholder1]

[edit on 18-6-2010 by strangleholder1]

[edit on 18-6-2010 by strangleholder1]

Tell your side to Fu*king move on? bitter much? You think its only one side that has to move on?

Why dont you tell me what lies I have spread?

[edit on 19-6-2010 by Lady_Tuatha]

Originally posted by Anam Gra
But my understanding of how the dissidents feel is that if the Brits are in Ireland, they will suck our country dry and subjugate and oppress our people, as they have done in so many countries, therefore get them out by means of a guerilla war, which is the only means available to them.

The day after I was born was Bloody Sunday. In the hospital war almost broke out amongst the new mothers, and the non-Catholics and English had to be moved out of the maternity ward. My Mum remembers it like yesterday because she wasn't allowed to go up to see me for 24 hours, which to a new mother can feel like a lifetime. Twenty-four hours earlier, they were all side by side in their beds, nursing their newborns, equal, different, but the same. The next day, they were wanting to tear each other to pieces. That was what Bloody Sunday did to us.

As long as the dissidents continue to do what they do, they risk taking us back there. We are no different from each other, we're largely of the same blood and we endure the same oppressors. That the majority voted for peace and continue to work hard for that peace to be realised, is insulted by those dissidents. I suspect that those people are not really interested in liberating Northern Ireland from British rule, unless they are particularly naive, they are interested only in maintaining the divide between us and sustaining hatred and distrust. Hell, if we stopped, looked each other in the eye, we might just realise how powerful we could be if we all joined together, as we should be, and stood shoulder to shoulder to beat those oppressors together. Who do you think may want to prevent that from happening? A rag tag bunch of dissidents? Do you think so, really?

I must say Trout I agree with the majority of what you are saying, what I was saying earlier is that I can understand that mindset, I dont share it. But there has been a rampant sense of paranoia in this country for ..probably hundreds of years. The brits have been found to be untrustworthy on so many occasions, I can see how others can see it that way. Therefore maintain a military readiness. I agree we should all stand together to beat the oppressors, thats our way forward

Originally posted by Anam Gra
I must say Trout I agree with the majority of what you are saying, what I was saying earlier is that I can understand that mindset, I dont share it. But there has been a rampant sense of paranoia in this country for ..probably hundreds of years. The brits have been found to be untrustworthy on so many occasions, I can see how others can see it that way. Therefore maintain a military readiness. I agree we should all stand together to beat the oppressors, thats our way forward

I realised you weren't supporting those activities and I apologise if my reply implied as much, it wasn't my intention. However, what I have just noticed is that you're still saying 'the Brits' like you're seperate from the rest of us. I hate to be the one to break it to you, but you're a Brit, like it or not. The whole mind-set of 'them and us' has to change, and that includes you. Technically, I'm English, as you are Northern Irish, but we're both British subjects. Depressing as that may be... ...at times. Could be worse!

there have been many crimes committed by both 'sides' throughout the history of the troubles.

i'm sure the people of Omagh would like an enquiry into what happened there. or what about the veterans of WWII that were blown up in Enniskillen - people who risked their lives for all our freedom.

it's time for the people of our wee piece of this planet to realise that we have more in common with each other than anybody else

it's time for us to unite and work together to ensure a better future for all of us.

bloody sunday is unforgivable but so are the acts of violence carried out by both sides ever since. acts that continue to be carried out to this day

we must all forgive the unforgivable

that is the only way we can move on

many have lost family and friends

many have suffered

how many more will have to suffer in the name of politics or religion?

it is with complete dismay that i read some of the posts here that seem to glorify the 'struggle'. that seem to justify the violence, the hatred and that seem to wish to see another 40 years of war



[edit on 19-6-2010 by sputnik]

Originally posted by KilgoreTrout

Originally posted by Anam Gra
I must say Trout I agree with the majority of what you are saying, what I was saying earlier is that I can understand that mindset, I dont share it. But there has been a rampant sense of paranoia in this country for ..probably hundreds of years. The brits have been found to be untrustworthy on so many occasions, I can see how others can see it that way. Therefore maintain a military readiness. I agree we should all stand together to beat the oppressors, thats our way forward

I realised you weren't supporting those activities and I apologise if my reply implied as much, it wasn't my intention. However, what I have just noticed is that you're still saying 'the Brits' like you're seperate from the rest of us. I hate to be the one to break it to you, but you're a Brit, like it or not. The whole mind-set of 'them and us' has to change, and that includes you. Technically, I'm English, as you are Northern Irish, but we're both British subjects. Depressing as that may be...

...at times. Could be worse!

Ha, bit depressing alright!! no, I suppose when I use that word Im thinking of the state and the collonialist attitude, however I am actually an Irish citizen though!! but take your point, but at no point am I thinking about the joe soap in the street, Im fully aware that theres good and bad in all, Ive spent much time in England with lovely lovely people. Its more a mind set really. I totally agree I dont care for the them/us thing at all,

Originally posted by sputnik
there have been many crimes committed by both 'sides' throughout the history of the troubles.

i'm sure the people of Omagh would like an enquiry into what happened there. or what about the veterans of WWII that were blown up in Enniskillen - people who risked their lives for all our freedom.

it's time for the people of our wee piece of this planet to realise that we have more in common with each other than anybody else

it's time for us to unite and work together to ensure a better future for all of us.

bloody sunday is unforgivable but so are the acts of violence carried out by both sides ever since. acts that continue to be carried out to this day

we must all forgive the unforgivable

that is the only way we can move on

many have lost family and friends

many have suffered

how many more will have to suffer in the name of politics or religion

it is with complete dismay that i read some of the posts here that seem to glorify the 'struggle'. that seem to justify the violence, the hatred and that seem to wish to see another 40 years of war


I know that sense of dismay and frustration with violence. But what I hear a lot on here is ok, yeah well...bloody sunday....what about x..or y.. or z. Yes there have been atrocities and deaths, for me it kind of trivialises an event by comparing it to another. Each event is significant in itself, each atrocity is individually horrendous. and they are grouped into one horrendous war. so if we stop the war then hopefully we will stop the atrocities. But realism is a large part of that. You may not think that the IRA's campaign was necessary, but some of the people here feel it was necessary for realising justice and fighting back at the atrocities perpetrated on them, to end them. No one initiates a campaign like that for no reason. However, the movement forward is important and thats hopefully where we are now. Now thats only my opinion!!!!!

This incident took place in 1972 and by all accounts the march was civil and to the tune of non violent resistance championed by American civil rights leader Martin Luther King. It was a response by Irish Catholics about their own being picked-up and detained by the British Army and the Royal Ulster Constabulary(RUC) for being paramilitaries on the grounds of suspicion without due process in a court of law. Although there were reports of hooligans breaking off from the march to engage British Military barricades with stones and other objects. Does that require firing into a crowd of protesters with live rounds? It certainly exasperated the violence orchestrated by the Irish Republican Army(IRA) and their ranks swelled significantly.

Then after all these years the Saville Report finally releases this damning indictment in 2010? What gives? Talk about dragging feet on this one. It is absolutely unacceptable, and chances are those responsible for this heinous act of wanton violence will never see the confines of a court room to answer for their crimes?

This act is over 30-years-old and there are people who were involved that will claim ignorance, forgetfulness, and no doubt some are now deceased. Chances are the British Government knew from the get go that they screwed up royally at the very onset of this public relations nightmare, and to lessen the blow, they thought with the passage of time the story would have just gone away and the fires of resentment would have dissipated. However, from the the responses on here, the situation is still ripe and people are just as outraged now as they were then.

Still, I don't advocate the tactics used by the IRA and their assaults on civilians in England and against their own. Even England and the Protestants are guilty of using a heavy-handed approach against civilians in this conflict. Whoever said a war of attrition had rules, justification, or even logic behind it?

It is usually a bloodbath and conducted with unspeakable brutality. At least the British Government is fessing up to their responsibility for this diabolical act. Hopefully, at the very least, the families affected by this horrific act are adequately compensated for their loss.

Apparently, as of June 15th, new Prime Minister, David Cameron, has publicly commented on the findings from the Saville Report.



This is just another step toward reconciliation and peace to that embattled land.


[edit on 21-6-2010 by Jakes51]

reply to post by Lady_Tuatha


PIRA were a splinter group! which is it supporting / not supporting violent splinter groups

That was a civil rights march, machine guns and nail bombs are not what one carries to a "peaceful" civil rights march.

Peaceful non violent civil rights have gained more respect and power than nailbombers and machine gunners. Splinter group , not splinter group .. still they murder and attempt murder.

Did Martin Luther King ever condone violence or his mentor Gandhi.

Today the USA have a black President.. go figure

Originally posted by BANANAMONTANA
reply to post by Lady_Tuatha

 

PIRA were a splinter group! which is it supporting / not supporting violent splinter groups

That was a civil rights march, machine guns and nail bombs are not what one carries to a "peaceful" civil rights march.

Peaceful non violent civil rights have gained more respect and power than nailbombers and machine gunners. Splinter group , not splinter group .. still they murder and attempt murder.

Did Martin Luther King ever condone violence or his mentor Gandhi.

Today the USA have a black President.. go figure

Sorry Banana, Im confused about the main thrust of your argument, are you saying that the paras were justified in murdering those 14 people on Bloody Sunday? Are you condoning the use of lethal force on innocent people in a riot situation? Do you understand the basic idealogical shift that took place when the Provos split from the Official IRA? Do you understand the idealogical shift taken by the provos when they considered a peaceful strategy? Do you know how the provos differ, idealogically, from the newer dissident groups?

Originally posted by Anam Gra

Originally posted by BANANAMONTANA


Sorry Banana, Im confused about the main thrust of your argument, are you saying that the paras were justified in murdering those 14 people on Bloody Sunday? Are you condoning the use of lethal force on innocent people in a riot situation? Do you understand the basic idealogical shift that took place when the Provos split from the Official IRA? Do you understand the idealogical shift taken by the provos when they considered a peaceful strategy? Do you know how the provos differ, idealogically, from the newer dissident groups?

maybe you should do your homework, I am sorry you seem to be confused by what peaceful protest means and how the PIRA and others put the lives of innocent people at risk

No answer Banana??? however, sorry, you seem to have confused peaceful protest, riotous behavour and paramilitary engagement, three separate and individual concepts.

Originally posted by Anam Gra
No answer Banana??? however, sorry, you seem to have confused peaceful protest, riotous behavour and paramilitary engagement, three separate and individual concepts.

but all evident on Bloody Sunday, it is not I that was confused.


Violence has set back and lost the sympathy of many.

I know what i went through as a child and my family as catholics, however we were taught by may father to walk another path.

I was not there nor born on Bloody Sunday. I was born after and have many times cowered as bombs exploded around me to such an extent that when walking down the street at university every time there was a blow out i would duck to the ground, much to the amusement of my friends.

once at mass when my father went to move his car after the priest announced a bomb scare. I was 5 and when the bomb went off my father was still not back on the church seat beside me. The bomb exploded and again death and destruction. My father came back later after helping the human beings that had legs blasted off.

I was at university when i saw the news flash of a bomb in omagh, i tried to phone home. The lines were engaged, i had to plead with the operator to put me through somehow. I will not state here the people i knew on a personal level who died that day.

The bus driver who took me to school in the morning told of how the army and police ran to the bus depot to get buses to ferry the people to the hospital, he spoke of how he was handed arms and body parts but did not know whom they belonged to.

That hospital is now closing down.!!! where are the great politicans there then...


The report is clear in its findings..on evidence that was presented. I am sorry if you are upset by the fact that a peaceful protest was attended by members of PIRA with machine guns and Martin Mc Guiness cant remember where he was.. or that nailbombs were found as well. The PIRA were asked not to attend by the organisers ..so why was he there at all?

Sorry but the vast majority of people were peaceful but to hide behind people at a march for civil rights with weapons is a clear sign of complete disregard for human safety.


I do not think that violence has worked, it is still going on, and I am sorry if this bothers you but marin mc guinness has many questions that should be asked of him.. he did and has done terrible wrong. He and his ilk of both sides that condone/ and have used violence of any sort make me, and most people sick when we see them.

the voting turnout in parts of Northern Ireland are so poor they have debated mandatory voting...! that speaks volumes.

The Irish and the British are proud and have reason to be, and I, as a citizen born in Northen Ireland am proud of both most of the time.

I wish you no ill and my feelings are thus, your life is not the same as mine and feelings run high.

I would mirror every thing you've said, Banana, I totally agree with you, but there is a clear demarcation between those people seeking peaceful protest, the more military, or militant factions, be that IRA or those who believe in civil unrest, I believe each is legitimate in its own way. I know its important to be absolutely clear on that, everyone has their own justification for what they do or believe in.

I had several family members on the civil rights march that day, they were non-military and totally believed in the democratic process, the only reason was that they werent afforded a democratic process, therefore they felt it necessary to take to the streets in what they believed to be a peaceful protest. They did not know there would be violence. You know, its so important to be precise about this, because sometimes the legitimacy of the civil rights process is overlooked due to the military action that takes place.

I dont come from a military or militarised family where violence was a feature or even acceptable but in very, very rare circumstances, I see the value of armed resistance, only if its the last possible option. In the case of the North of Ireland, I think it was, having said that, armed conflict is still very distasteful to me but, again a necessity, as I see it, I am no apologist for the killing of innocent people, it runs totally contrary to my beliefs.

At this point, there is a very definite shift within the IRA to pursue a more democratic approach. This has taken place now and not then because quite simply, in 1972, there was without a doubt the mentality of 'lie down croppy, this is the British Empire, you will do what you're told', this, of course, being bolstered by a very corrupt, sectarian regime here. Thankfully, in latter days there is less of that empirialistic attitude, therefore more opportunity to pursue a democratic solution. For me its so important to put this in context.

Then there are the dissident republicans, who hold an opposing view, and there is a major difference in orientation with these groups, as Ive said in an earlier reply, I cant wholehearted disagree with this philosophy, but personally at this time, I would be pursuing peaceful means. But there is a very clear and ideological difference.

As you say, everyone in the North has their stories, regardless of what political opinion or orientation you have, each as legitimate as the other in my view. Im the spirit of moving on, its important that these stories be acknowledged and also the complex nature of the experiences. To generalise or trivialise these differences is to trivialise the experience of thousands of people, which, to be honest, is unacceptable.

reply to post by BANANAMONTANA


Im sorry but none of what you have said changes the fact that the British troops fired on and killed innocent civilians on Bloody Sunday, they fired without being fired on. They killed innocent people, ( all you have to do is read the report on the killings to see how the people died, some shot whilst going to the aid of others, some shot whilst crawling away, a father shot trying to tend to his son who was also shot, a man waving a white hankie was shot whilst trying to help a dieing man) The entire point of this thread.

How many British troops were shot that day?

I am all for peace and leaving the violent past behind in the past where it belongs, but nothing takes away the fact that because of the army's actions that day many many more people were spurred on to join the IRA, thus making the troubles what they were.

You keep comparing this day to other tragedies, the Omagh bombing for example which was carried out by a splinter group of the IRA, the IRA did not carry out the Omagh bombing. I was disgusted when I heard the news of the Omagh bomb, it sickened me, i have no support for those who carried out that attack and those who do not look towards peace.

We now have SinnFein in government, we are now fairly represented as a people and need to work together for a better future here ( once all the parties can stop squabbling between eachother in government that is )

Originally posted by Anam Gra

He wishes for his Cloths of Heaven
Had I the heavens' embroidered cloths,
wrought with golden and silver light,
The blue and the dim and the dark cloths
Of night and light and the half-light,
I would spread the cloths under your feet:
But I, being poor, have only my dreams;
I have spread my dreams under your feet;
Tread softly because you tread on my dreams.

W. B. Yeats (1865 - 1939)

My heart with al the irish people that suffered during the incident.
Isn't it the habbit of the istablishment to protect their own and release full truth when the perpetraitors are either too old or dead and beyond prosecution...?