Originally posted by Anam Gra
But my understanding of how the dissidents feel is that if the Brits are in Ireland, they will suck our country dry and subjugate and oppress our people, as they have done in so many countries, therefore get them out by means of a guerilla war, which is the only means available to them.

The day after I was born was Bloody Sunday. In the hospital war almost broke out amongst the new mothers, and the non-Catholics and English had to be moved out of the maternity ward. My Mum remembers it like yesterday because she wasn't allowed to go up to see me for 24 hours, which to a new mother can feel like a lifetime. Twenty-four hours earlier, they were all side by side in their beds, nursing their newborns, equal, different, but the same. The next day, they were wanting to tear each other to pieces. That was what Bloody Sunday did to us.

As long as the dissidents continue to do what they do, they risk taking us back there. We are no different from each other, we're largely of the same blood and we endure the same oppressors. That the majority voted for peace and continue to work hard for that peace to be realised, is insulted by those dissidents. I suspect that those people are not really interested in liberating Northern Ireland from British rule, unless they are particularly naive, they are interested only in maintaining the divide between us and sustaining hatred and distrust. Hell, if we stopped, looked each other in the eye, we might just realise how powerful we could be if we all joined together, as we should be, and stood shoulder to shoulder to beat those oppressors together. Who do you think may want to prevent that from happening? A rag tag bunch of dissidents? Do you think so, really?

I must say Trout I agree with the majority of what you are saying, what I was saying earlier is that I can understand that mindset, I dont share it. But there has been a rampant sense of paranoia in this country for ..probably hundreds of years. The brits have been found to be untrustworthy on so many occasions, I can see how others can see it that way. Therefore maintain a military readiness. I agree we should all stand together to beat the oppressors, thats our way forward

Originally posted by Anam Gra
I must say Trout I agree with the majority of what you are saying, what I was saying earlier is that I can understand that mindset, I dont share it. But there has been a rampant sense of paranoia in this country for ..probably hundreds of years. The brits have been found to be untrustworthy on so many occasions, I can see how others can see it that way. Therefore maintain a military readiness. I agree we should all stand together to beat the oppressors, thats our way forward

I realised you weren't supporting those activities and I apologise if my reply implied as much, it wasn't my intention. However, what I have just noticed is that you're still saying 'the Brits' like you're seperate from the rest of us. I hate to be the one to break it to you, but you're a Brit, like it or not. The whole mind-set of 'them and us' has to change, and that includes you. Technically, I'm English, as you are Northern Irish, but we're both British subjects. Depressing as that may be... ...at times. Could be worse!

there have been many crimes committed by both 'sides' throughout the history of the troubles.

i'm sure the people of Omagh would like an enquiry into what happened there. or what about the veterans of WWII that were blown up in Enniskillen - people who risked their lives for all our freedom.

it's time for the people of our wee piece of this planet to realise that we have more in common with each other than anybody else

it's time for us to unite and work together to ensure a better future for all of us.

bloody sunday is unforgivable but so are the acts of violence carried out by both sides ever since. acts that continue to be carried out to this day

we must all forgive the unforgivable

that is the only way we can move on

many have lost family and friends

many have suffered

how many more will have to suffer in the name of politics or religion?

it is with complete dismay that i read some of the posts here that seem to glorify the 'struggle'. that seem to justify the violence, the hatred and that seem to wish to see another 40 years of war



[edit on 19-6-2010 by sputnik]

Originally posted by KilgoreTrout

Originally posted by Anam Gra
I must say Trout I agree with the majority of what you are saying, what I was saying earlier is that I can understand that mindset, I dont share it. But there has been a rampant sense of paranoia in this country for ..probably hundreds of years. The brits have been found to be untrustworthy on so many occasions, I can see how others can see it that way. Therefore maintain a military readiness. I agree we should all stand together to beat the oppressors, thats our way forward

I realised you weren't supporting those activities and I apologise if my reply implied as much, it wasn't my intention. However, what I have just noticed is that you're still saying 'the Brits' like you're seperate from the rest of us. I hate to be the one to break it to you, but you're a Brit, like it or not. The whole mind-set of 'them and us' has to change, and that includes you. Technically, I'm English, as you are Northern Irish, but we're both British subjects. Depressing as that may be... ...at times. Could be worse!

Ha, bit depressing alright!! no, I suppose when I use that word Im thinking of the state and the collonialist attitude, however I am actually an Irish citizen though!! but take your point, but at no point am I thinking about the joe soap in the street, Im fully aware that theres good and bad in all, Ive spent much time in England with lovely lovely people. Its more a mind set really. I totally agree I dont care for the them/us thing at all,

Originally posted by sputnik
there have been many crimes committed by both 'sides' throughout the history of the troubles.

i'm sure the people of Omagh would like an enquiry into what happened there. or what about the veterans of WWII that were blown up in Enniskillen - people who risked their lives for all our freedom.

it's time for the people of our wee piece of this planet to realise that we have more in common with each other than anybody else

it's time for us to unite and work together to ensure a better future for all of us.

bloody sunday is unforgivable but so are the acts of violence carried out by both sides ever since. acts that continue to be carried out to this day

we must all forgive the unforgivable

that is the only way we can move on

many have lost family and friends

many have suffered

how many more will have to suffer in the name of politics or religion

it is with complete dismay that i read some of the posts here that seem to glorify the 'struggle'. that seem to justify the violence, the hatred and that seem to wish to see another 40 years of war


I know that sense of dismay and frustration with violence. But what I hear a lot on here is ok, yeah well...bloody sunday....what about x..or y.. or z. Yes there have been atrocities and deaths, for me it kind of trivialises an event by comparing it to another. Each event is significant in itself, each atrocity is individually horrendous. and they are grouped into one horrendous war. so if we stop the war then hopefully we will stop the atrocities. But realism is a large part of that. You may not think that the IRA's campaign was necessary, but some of the people here feel it was necessary for realising justice and fighting back at the atrocities perpetrated on them, to end them. No one initiates a campaign like that for no reason. However, the movement forward is important and thats hopefully where we are now. Now thats only my opinion!!!!!

Originally posted by Anam Gra

Originally posted by BANANAMONTANA


Sorry Banana, Im confused about the main thrust of your argument, are you saying that the paras were justified in murdering those 14 people on Bloody Sunday? Are you condoning the use of lethal force on innocent people in a riot situation? Do you understand the basic idealogical shift that took place when the Provos split from the Official IRA? Do you understand the idealogical shift taken by the provos when they considered a peaceful strategy? Do you know how the provos differ, idealogically, from the newer dissident groups?

maybe you should do your homework, I am sorry you seem to be confused by what peaceful protest means and how the PIRA and others put the lives of innocent people at risk

No answer Banana??? however, sorry, you seem to have confused peaceful protest, riotous behavour and paramilitary engagement, three separate and individual concepts.

Originally posted by Anam Gra
No answer Banana??? however, sorry, you seem to have confused peaceful protest, riotous behavour and paramilitary engagement, three separate and individual concepts.

but all evident on Bloody Sunday, it is not I that was confused.


Violence has set back and lost the sympathy of many.

I know what i went through as a child and my family as catholics, however we were taught by may father to walk another path.

I was not there nor born on Bloody Sunday. I was born after and have many times cowered as bombs exploded around me to such an extent that when walking down the street at university every time there was a blow out i would duck to the ground, much to the amusement of my friends.

once at mass when my father went to move his car after the priest announced a bomb scare. I was 5 and when the bomb went off my father was still not back on the church seat beside me. The bomb exploded and again death and destruction. My father came back later after helping the human beings that had legs blasted off.

I was at university when i saw the news flash of a bomb in omagh, i tried to phone home. The lines were engaged, i had to plead with the operator to put me through somehow. I will not state here the people i knew on a personal level who died that day.

The bus driver who took me to school in the morning told of how the army and police ran to the bus depot to get buses to ferry the people to the hospital, he spoke of how he was handed arms and body parts but did not know whom they belonged to.

That hospital is now closing down.!!! where are the great politicans there then...


The report is clear in its findings..on evidence that was presented. I am sorry if you are upset by the fact that a peaceful protest was attended by members of PIRA with machine guns and Martin Mc Guiness cant remember where he was.. or that nailbombs were found as well. The PIRA were asked not to attend by the organisers ..so why was he there at all?

Sorry but the vast majority of people were peaceful but to hide behind people at a march for civil rights with weapons is a clear sign of complete disregard for human safety.


I do not think that violence has worked, it is still going on, and I am sorry if this bothers you but marin mc guinness has many questions that should be asked of him.. he did and has done terrible wrong. He and his ilk of both sides that condone/ and have used violence of any sort make me, and most people sick when we see them.

the voting turnout in parts of Northern Ireland are so poor they have debated mandatory voting...! that speaks volumes.

The Irish and the British are proud and have reason to be, and I, as a citizen born in Northen Ireland am proud of both most of the time.

I wish you no ill and my feelings are thus, your life is not the same as mine and feelings run high.

I would mirror every thing you've said, Banana, I totally agree with you, but there is a clear demarcation between those people seeking peaceful protest, the more military, or militant factions, be that IRA or those who believe in civil unrest, I believe each is legitimate in its own way. I know its important to be absolutely clear on that, everyone has their own justification for what they do or believe in.

I had several family members on the civil rights march that day, they were non-military and totally believed in the democratic process, the only reason was that they werent afforded a democratic process, therefore they felt it necessary to take to the streets in what they believed to be a peaceful protest. They did not know there would be violence. You know, its so important to be precise about this, because sometimes the legitimacy of the civil rights process is overlooked due to the military action that takes place.

I dont come from a military or militarised family where violence was a feature or even acceptable but in very, very rare circumstances, I see the value of armed resistance, only if its the last possible option. In the case of the North of Ireland, I think it was, having said that, armed conflict is still very distasteful to me but, again a necessity, as I see it, I am no apologist for the killing of innocent people, it runs totally contrary to my beliefs.

At this point, there is a very definite shift within the IRA to pursue a more democratic approach. This has taken place now and not then because quite simply, in 1972, there was without a doubt the mentality of 'lie down croppy, this is the British Empire, you will do what you're told', this, of course, being bolstered by a very corrupt, sectarian regime here. Thankfully, in latter days there is less of that empirialistic attitude, therefore more opportunity to pursue a democratic solution. For me its so important to put this in context.

Then there are the dissident republicans, who hold an opposing view, and there is a major difference in orientation with these groups, as Ive said in an earlier reply, I cant wholehearted disagree with this philosophy, but personally at this time, I would be pursuing peaceful means. But there is a very clear and ideological difference.

As you say, everyone in the North has their stories, regardless of what political opinion or orientation you have, each as legitimate as the other in my view. Im the spirit of moving on, its important that these stories be acknowledged and also the complex nature of the experiences. To generalise or trivialise these differences is to trivialise the experience of thousands of people, which, to be honest, is unacceptable.

Originally posted by Anam Gra

He wishes for his Cloths of Heaven
Had I the heavens' embroidered cloths,
wrought with golden and silver light,
The blue and the dim and the dark cloths
Of night and light and the half-light,
I would spread the cloths under your feet:
But I, being poor, have only my dreams;
I have spread my dreams under your feet;
Tread softly because you tread on my dreams.

W. B. Yeats (1865 - 1939)

My heart with al the irish people that suffered during the incident.
Isn't it the habbit of the istablishment to protect their own and release full truth when the perpetraitors are either too old or dead and beyond prosecution...?