Bloody Sunday Inquiry to rule killings unlawful?

Originally posted by Extreme Pilgrim
3. Not all men (and women) in an British Army uniform are angels. There are plenty of those who are serving to fulfill their own agenda.

No-one has said that all serving personnel within the British Army are angels or saints. As I said, for vast majority of them served with distinction in the province for 30 years as part of Operation Banner. Think of the number of times Army personnel have suffered abuse or violence and yet restrained themselves and responded in a disciplined and professional manner. One reason why the U.K maintains one of the most highly trained professional armies in the world.

reply to post by Retro~Burn




The British army were not here to protect catholics, if they were then they didnt do a very good good job of it now did they.

Sinnfein/ IRA were fighting for rights for the people, if it were not for them then I think catholics here would still be facing the discrimination and abuse from the government that they faced years ago. If the British government had of realized that yes the catholics need to be represented in government and yes they do deserve equal rights then they would have saved everyone alot of bother.

Your hatred of Sinn Fein is clear in your posts, clearly another so blinded by patriotism that you refuse to see that your government and armed forces were wrong. I have no time for people like you.

Originally posted by Lady_Tuatha
reply to post by Retro~Burn

 

The British army were not here to protect catholics, if they were then they didnt do a very good good job of it now did they.

Yes they were, I thought it was me who was lacking knowledge of Northern Irish history?

After a series of attacks on Nationalist property by newly emerged UVF a series of Civil Rights marches were organised.
These were aimed at gaining more even representation etc for Nationalist communities.
Several of these marches were attacked by Loyalist groups and off duty policemen.
Riots subsequently occured in several areas and there were countless attacks on Nationalist properties with quite a few forced evictions.
Again it wasalleged that RUC officers had taken part in these attacks.

As a result the elected Northern Ireland government of the day asked The British Army to come in and restore order and prevent sectarian attacks on Catholics.

The rest as we say, is history.

You say you have no time for people who are blinded by 'patriotism' yet every poster on here has stated that the Bloody Sunday killings were wrong.

I put it to you thay you are the one who is blinded with political and religous bigotry and dogma.

The Soldiers that day were Orange Scots who hated the Catholics as much as the Orange men implanted in my country without Irish concent all those years ago!

reply to post by Retro~Burn


unfortunately, through some misguided sense of patriotism and/or any relevant experience of the issues at hand, they believe that those in government or the armed forces are whiter then white and this far from true.

Originally posted by Lady_Tuatha

The British army were not here to protect catholics, if they were then they didnt do a very good good job of it now did they.

Strictly speaking Lady_Tuatha the presence of the British Army was requested at the behest of the Catholics in 1969 who were being mistreated and discriminated by the Protestant majority. You don't need to be told so of course but you forget why the British Army were there in the first place. Unfortunately what turned Nationalist (1) opinion against the British Army and thus the state are such events such as the "Falls Curfew", decision to introduce internment without trial, the "Five techniques" applied by the R.U.C, Security Forces and the British Army and so forth. The British Army's job was to uphold the law and maintain order but with people setting off bombs, sniping, throwing molotov cocktails and the rest of it they had to do something.

Sinnfein/ IRA were fighting for rights for the people, if it were not for them then I think catholics here would still be facing the discrimination and abuse from the government that they faced years ago. If the British government had of realized that yes the catholics need to be represented in government and yes they do deserve equal rights then they would have saved everyone alot of bother.

What would have "saved everyone a lot of bother" is had the leading figures of P.I.R.A and other republican groups decided to participate in the peace process much sooner. This sentiment equally extends to the loyalist bandits who behaved equally in a thuggish manner. The continued 'armed struggle' (laughable really) was perpetuated by a myth that it was done for freedom fighting. When in fact it was conducted by a cohort of fiends who were only interested in spreading violence, mayhem and utter carnage to wherever they could. It's strange how the P.I.R.A and others decided to bomb civilian targets and not only military targets. Do you honestly condone tacts such as the use of "proxy/human bombs"? Where they would force a driver to drive towards a checkpoint manned by soldiers; the vehicle of course would be packed full of explosives. Absolutely base, vile and an utterly contempuous manner in which to wage a war for independence.

Your hatred of Sinn Fein is clear in your posts, clearly another so blinded by patriotism that you refuse to see that your government and armed forces were wrong. I have no time for people like you.

I'm not motivated by patriotism (which I loathe) but by a duty to my conscience. I don't hate Sinn Feinn (it is democratic), I don't find the idea of a united Ireland or 'Eire' abhorrent or loathesome. What (or whom) I find repugnant are certain political figures whom I have already named. Men who are responsible for a whole host of crimes both against British Army soldiers and British civilians. Do you honestly believe that those killed in the Birmingham pub bombings deserved their fate? The young lad riding his bike killed by a bomb placed in a rubbish bin? The young Army cadet who lost his hand and sight when a package detonated outside a Territorial army base.

There's a whole litany of grotesque and abominable actions taken by both sides, this is an incontrovertible fact. However, what one must not do is excuse or pardon a side's actions because they were doing it for some alleged noble cause. When it comes down to it, the British Army at least were made accountable for most of their actions. Shame the same can't be said for P.I.R.A and others of their ilk. I doubt those responsible for the Warrenpoint Ambush and Birmingham pub bombings will ever step forward and claim responsibility. Which is what sickens me. I am very pleased the Saville Inquiry exonerated those innocent civilians who were killed.

1.I don't like to use the term "Catholic" as not all Catholics were Nationalists and not all Protestants were Unionists.

[edit on 16/6/10 by Retro~Burn]

An not all the British Army were "Orange" men from Scotland! so why send them to N Ireland in the first place?

[edit on 16-6-2010 by DCDAVECLARKE]

I'd like to make a final point. Which is to state that the P.I.R.A's armed struggle was an ultimate failure. A failure since their use of systematic and targetted violence did not help them to realise their goals; a) a united Ireland and b) to expel the British Army (and presence) from the province. The Republicans only gained ground with the Good Friday Agreement, in addition to put in place a detente which allowed Sinn Fein to handle matters for Republicans all over Northern Ireland. Let us all hope that the Reverend Ian Paisley's "Never! Never! Never!" chant and Gerry Adams' "They haven't gone away you know" (1) will be consigned to the ether and not resurface to haunt future generations.

1. Which he stated in response to someone shouting "What about the I.R.A?!"

[edit on 16/6/10 by Retro~Burn]

Can the British propagandists please read the following :



Why is it the IRA always seem to be the ones tagged as terrorists?

reply to post by Lady_Tuatha


I thought it was common knowledge that Loyalist terrorists killed more people in Northern Ireland than Republican.

I have repeatedly condemend terrorists from both side of the political divide.

Again, just another example of you cherry picking pieces of information.

Or maybe you just don't read or can't understand what people are posting!

I have as much contempt for the Michael Stones and Johnny Adairs of this world as I have for the Bobby Sands and Martin McGuiness.

But the topic under discussion is the Bloody Sunday killings.

Currently watching BBC News and there are calls for ALL the killing in Northern Ireland.

This is just going to tear Ulster apart again!

Originally posted by Lady_Tuatha
Why is it the IRA always seem to be the ones tagged as terrorists?

Because they set out to bomb, maim and kill women and children as a means to further their aims. There's no point getting in a dick-measuring contest of statistics gathering when the heart of the matter is the callous conduct by the I.R.A and its ilk. A conduct which resulted in acts that brutalised and maimed an entire generation of innocent people. No-one is excusing the immoral actions of the British Army or Loyalist paramilitaries. At least the former organisation is a professional one bound to a higher form of conduct than any of the banditry which plagued the populace during the troubles. I wonder when the unamed perpetrators of Warrenpoint, the Birmingham pub bombings etc will accept culpability for their crimes and step forward. Even Messieurs McGuiness and Adams have no apologised for those horrific acts.

You don't hear about stories such as this one:

Michael Willetts

Just another British killer in your eyes Lady_Tuatha.

[edit on 16/6/10 by Retro~Burn]

It was a war, soldiers do know when they enlist that they may die, right? they may get shot at or blown up, especially if they are in a place that does not want them there, especially if the civilian population hate them because of thier disgusting behaviour towards them.

I seem to be getting flack because I support the Bloody Sunday victims families in their long quest for justice and to prove that their relatives were innocent. I support them because they are from my city, I know some of the families, and because the army lied about the murder they committed, giving false statements afterwards that the victims were armed, an army that was supposed to protect civilians, and an army who did not kill anyone with a gun in their hand that day.

If any other families of innocent civilians killed during the troubles want to try and get the truth out then they should, regardless of what religion they are or background they come from. But most victims families here never had to deal with lies about why their loved ones died, and those that do should fight for the truth to come out.

In the cases of civilians being killed via bombs in Dublin, Northern Ireland and England placed there by Republicans and Loyalists then that will be much harder because as previously stated in this thread 'The Good Friday Agreement' which allows those paramilitaries on all sides who were previously arrested and serving time to be let out on the agreement if they adhere to the ceasefire ( most of the prisoners had already served long jail terms ). This was voted for by the people.

The diference with Bloody sunday is that the soldiers never ever admitted that they murdered innocent civilians whereas every other bomb that happened here or in Dublin and England was claimed by the republicans or loyalists paramilitary groups.

It is up to the families of those civilians killed to find the truth, we as a city helped support the Bloody Sunday families, we always knew it was the army that was wrong, so if other families want to fight for justice or truth then its up to them to do it, it only took the people of Derry 38 years.

The soldiers may never be charged, those that gave evidence can not have their own evidence incriminate them in trial, its an immunity claus, other peoples evidence against them can be counted tho, but still I cant see them being prosecuted for what they did and maybe if they are it will be on perjury as they knowingly put forward false statements, I do believe they should be stripped of whatever medals or honours they were granted for their service in Northern Ireland at the very least. That is what some of the family members of those killed want.

[edit on 16-6-2010 by Lady_Tuatha]

reply to post by Retro~Burn

And what about the poor guy's they let out of prison for something they didn't do! IE the pub you refer to , the so called Birmingham 6!

Originally posted by Lady_Tuatha

I seem to be getting flack because I support the Bloody Sunday victims families in their long quest for justice and to prove that their relatives were innocent.

Not at all.

As has been repeatedly stated, no-one has any problems with you supporting the families of theBloody Sunday killings in their drive to unearth the truth.

And no-one has attempted to justify the killings.

What you are getting 'flack' for is your support of terrorists who performed just as sadistic and barbaric acts as any British soldier.

If you were suppoerting the actions of UDA or UVF terrorists I would be equallt critical.

If any other families of innocent civilians killed during the troubles want to try and get the truth out then they should, regardless of what religion they are or background they come from. But most victims families here never had to deal with lies about why their loved ones died, and those that do should fight for the truth to come out.

What about the families of the victims of the Omagh bombing.
Do you support their right to find out what happened that day and who was responsible.
And would you be so keen for the perpetrators of that act of murder to go to jail same as the soldiers responsible for Bloody Sunday, even though they were IRA 'Freedom Fighters'?

No-one has ever been prosecuted for Warrington.

In the cases of civilians being killed via bombs in Dublin, Northern Ireland and England placed there by Republicans and Loyalists then that will be much harder because as previously stated in this thread 'The Good Friday Agreement' which allows those paramilitaries on all sides who were previously arrested and serving time to be let out on the agreement if they adhere to the ceasefire ( most of the prisoners had already served long jail terms ). This was voted for by the people.

This was voted on by the people of Northern Ireland, not mainland UK!

The diference with Bloody sunday is that the soldiers never ever admitted that they murdered innocent civilians whereas every other bomb that happened here or in Dublin and England was claimed by the republicans or loyalists paramilitary groups.

No individuals admitted to anything, just illegal organisations.
It was pretty self-evident that British soldiers were responsible for the Bloody Sunday shootings.

It is up to the families of those civilians killed to find the truth, we as a city helped support the Bloody Sunday families, we always knew it was the army that was wrong, so if other families want to fight for justice or truth then its up to them to do it, it only took the people of Derry 38 years.

Look into the efforts made by the families of the victims of the Omagh bombing to try and get those responsible brought to justice.

The soldiers may never be charged, those that gave evidence can not have their own evidence incriminate them in trial, its an immunity claus, other peoples evidence against them can be counted tho, but still I cant see them being prosecuted for what they did and maybe if they are it will be on perjury as they knowingly put forward false statements, I do believe they should be stripped of whatever medals or honours they were granted for their service in Northern Ireland at the very least. That is what some of the family members of those killed want.

I hope the soldiers are not prosecuted.
It will just start a chain reaction which will open up old and bitter wounds and help take Northern Ireland back to the days of killing.
Surely no-one wants that.

Stripping of honours etc, maybe so...I think the public could accept that, but the military may feel betrayed.

Edit to add:

In an attempt to understand and appreciate I am still curious how you advocate an apparent admiration for Mahatma Gandhi and I assume, (I hate assuming!), histeachings and methods and your support for convicted murders and terrorists of the IRA.
Surely they are as diametrically opposed as can possibly be.

[edit on 16/6/10 by Freeborn]

Not all the Bombs were by the Paramilitary's! yea know what i mean nudge, nudge, wink, wink, no wa i mean......

reply to post by Freeborn


My support for terrorists? I have never supported any terrorists. I have supported Sinn Fein, but not any terrorists

The soldiers and the police force were the one's doing the terrorizing in my community.

The Omagh bombing was not carried out by the IRA. The RIRA a breakaway group who did not want to follow Sinn Fein into the peace process were responsible for the Omagh bombing. I have already stated a number of times that I have never supported or agreed with the splinter groups of the IRA who refused to work towards peace. So yes I would have support for the families of the victims of the Omagh bombings.

Can I ask you a question? Do you support your armed forces? because I can just as easily call them terrorists in the same way you call the Irish Republican Army terrorists. The IRA were soldiers fighting a war, yes many people died, yes they bombed many military targets here and bombed parts of England aswel, but wasnt there a war going on?

What about those getting bombed in Afghanistan and other parts of the world by the British troops? You will find that the people over there consider your army to be terrorists.

Coo

Lets be perfectly clear, the British establishment brought the terror to Ireland, they are the terrorists and remain so. However, I do take one of your points, that movement forward is necessary, for the psychological health of the people of Ireland. As far as Bloody Sunday is concerned...we all have to agree now was one of the most significant acts of state terrorism that has actually been uncovered...there are many many others that have been perpetrated by the British state and of course others. Lets get rid of the collonial attitude, Brits!!..what do you think? Take a leaf from the book of the families of the 14 murdered people on Bloody Sunday, be dignified, practice peace and love. They have stated that they want no retribution or conviction of the murdering paras, they only wanted justice..and they got it! INNOCENT!! Great days for Derry people, Irish people and those who look for justice in every country.

reply to post by Anam Gra


I don't think anyone would or has disputed or disagreed with anything you have said.

It was Lady_Tuatha who stated she wanted the soldiers prosecuting and I replied that I felt that would be negative for Ireland as a whole.
That is how the thread progressed.

Originally posted by Anam Gra
Coo

Lets be perfectly clear, the British establishment brought the terror to Ireland, they are the terrorists and remain so. However, I do take one of your points, that movement forward is necessary, for the psychological health of the people of Ireland. As far as Bloody Sunday is concerned...we all have to agree now was one of the most significant acts of state terrorism that has actually been uncovered...there are many many others that have been perpetrated by the British state and of course others. Lets get rid of the collonial attitude, Brits!!..what do you think? Take a leaf from the book of the families of the 14 murdered people on Bloody Sunday, be dignified, practice peace and love. They have stated that they want no retribution or conviction of the murdering paras, they only wanted justice..and they got it! INNOCENT!! Great days for Derry people, Irish people and those who look for justice in every country.

Some of the families do want prosecutions :

www.guardian.co.uk... ary-uk

Greg McCartney, the solicitor who represented the family of one of the victims, Jim Wray, said that it was in the public interest to prosecute soldiers who shot young men in the back as they were running away.

"I was with the Wray family after they had seen the report," he said, "and their view is that they wanted truth and justice. They have now been given the truth and now they expect justice. We want to see murder charges. It's a clear case of murder. Soldiers gave accounts that were not truthful so there is the question of perjury."

reply to post by Lady_Tuatha


Bobby Sands was a convicted IRA terrorist.

The Warrington bombs were carried out by The Provo's. 2died.
Enniskillen Remembrance Day Parade Bombing. 12 died 63 injured. Carried out by The IRA.
Between 1973 and 1996 The IRA carried out at least 30 explosive attacks in London killing approximately 30 people and injuring and maiming literally hundreds more.

I fail to see how you can support and justify the murders of a 3 year old child and a 12 year old schoolkid by The IRA.
You justify it by saying they were at war.
First of all that would also justify all the subsequent acts carried out by The British Armed Forces because they too must have been at war.
And secondly you are implying that at times of war all civilians are legitimate targets.
I for one can not accept that.

I also am not sure why you differentiate between The Real IRA and The Provisisional IRA.