It looks like you're using an Ad Blocker.

Please white-list or disable AboveTopSecret.com in your ad-blocking tool.

Thank you.

 

Some features of ATS will be disabled while you continue to use an ad-blocker.

 

Bloody Sunday Inquiry to rule killings unlawful?

page: 5
9
<< 2  3  4    6 >>

log in

join
share:

posted on Jun, 16 2010 @ 09:06 PM
link   
Some more info for you Retro.

www.socialistworker.co.uk...




posted on Jun, 16 2010 @ 09:10 PM
link   

Originally posted by Anam Gra
How is this in contrast to what the IRA did?? Given the type of warfare required by the IRA, they had to engage in urban areas. Definately not a glowing indication of the enemy's character. Your forces brought the murder to Ireland, lets have no confusion, your forces terrorised the people of Ireland for hundreds of years, continuing up to the deployment of the IRA and well beyond. I personally remember being terrorised by your forces. Although I could never personally condone the killing of innocent people.


So why set-off bombs with the express intention of destroying civilian infrastructure and lives? Let me tell you, the British Army did a hell of a lot more for Northern Ireland than the I.R.A ever did. They'll never receive gratitude for it, no-one will mourn for the number of soldiers killed and they never asked to be there but they got on with it. They performed their duty (for the most part) as professionally as they could. You try and fight against an enemy who always hides and who's main modus operandi is to use high-explosive to indiscriminantely kill and maim. Don't use the non-sequitur approach of "we had no alternative" ad nauseam because each person who fired a fatal bullet or set-off a deadly bomb knew what they were doing. Phoning the authorities and giving warnings doesn't make one a saint. You can go om about centuries of oppression and the Battle of the Boyne ad nauseam but that does not excuse horrific acts of brutality in recent history.



posted on Jun, 16 2010 @ 09:12 PM
link   
Top brass decided that it was time to ‘shoot selected ringleaders’
The Bloody Sunday operation was devised at a very high level to stage an unprecedented confrontation.

A month before Bloody Sunday, General Harry Tuzo, the army commander in Northern Ireland, told the then Tory government that, “a choice had to be made between accepting that Creggan and Bogside were areas where the army was not able to go, or to mount a major operation which would involve, at some stage, shooting at unarmed civilians.”

On 7 January 1972 General Robert Ford declared in a memo to Tuzo, “I am coming to the conclusion that the minimum force necessary is to shoot selected ringleaders among the Derry young hooligans after clear warnings have been issued.

“I am convinced that our duty to restore law and order requires us to consider this step.” At Downing Street four days later prime minister Ted Heath told his cabinet, “A military operation to reimpose law and order would be a major operation necessarily involving numerous civilian casualties.”

After Bloody Sunday the British state at the highest level proclaimed that the killings were neither wrong nor illegal.

The government also made a shift to a policy of intensified repression. It spectacularly backfired.

Far from ending resistance, the massacre sparked further revolt. The parliament of Northern Ireland, which had existed since partition in 1921, had to be abolished eight weeks after the massacre.

The massacre fuelled continuing bloodshed. In the course of the conflict in Northern Ireland, police and soldiers killed 357 people.

About 150 of these were members of Republican paramilitary organisations, not all of whom were armed at the time. Some 189 of the victims were unarmed civilians.



posted on Jun, 16 2010 @ 09:24 PM
link   

Originally posted by Anam Gra
The massacre fuelled continuing bloodshed. In the course of the conflict in Northern Ireland, police and soldiers killed 357 people.

About 150 of these were members of Republican paramilitary organisations, not all of whom were armed at the time. Some 189 of the victims were unarmed civilians.


Here's the figures of the security forces killed during the Troubles:

British Army 705
RUC 301
NIPS 24
TA 7
English police 6
Royal Air Force 4
Royal Navy 2

Displaying statistics doesn't prove anything.



posted on Jun, 16 2010 @ 09:29 PM
link   
I agree these statistics in the the context prove very little...means a lot to the individuals and their families. What is glaringly obvious however, in the previous part of that posting, is that Bloody Sunday was planned at the highest level of the British establishment, ie your Prime Minister at the time told his cabinet that this would happen. Psychic? I wonder!



posted on Jun, 16 2010 @ 09:36 PM
link   
reply to post by Anam Gra
 


I've got to say that I don't agree that Bloody Sunday was sanctioned by the PM of the time. It is easy to think that this was the case given the ill treatment of the catholic population of the time but it is surprising what power an individual soldier can wield in a given situation.



posted on Jun, 16 2010 @ 09:38 PM
link   
Its quite obvious to me Retro that this blind faith in your government, your armed forces and the British propaganda machine is one of the reasons that Bloody Sunday was allowed to happen and remained uncovered for 38 years. I must comment at this stage that this is a really positive and joyful time for my community, I believe that Saville has drawn a line under our recent history, that is not to say that we should forget it, we should learn from it. But we must move on in peace. I think we're ready to do that, at last.



posted on Jun, 16 2010 @ 09:48 PM
link   
I've got to say that I don't agree that Bloody Sunday was sanctioned by the PM of the time. It is easy to think that this was the case given the ill treatment of the catholic population of the time but it is surprising what power an individual soldier can wield in a given situation.

To some degree, I agree with you, Pilgrim, I believe the British government were surprised by the degree of bloodshed and more importantly by world public opinion against them at that time. Thre Paras were too efficient!! But those statements by Ted Heath and Army personel are well documented.



posted on Jun, 16 2010 @ 09:58 PM
link   

Originally posted by Lady_Tuatha
reply to post by Freeborn
 




Oh okay we are not allowed to draw comparisons with the middle east? when it may relate to the topic at hand? when you might not like the answer? you asked how could I justify children being killed by IRA bombs, I simply asked how can you justify countless children in Afghanistan and Iraq being killed by British bombs?


I've never tried to justify anything in The Middle East, I've never mentioned it.
You assume that I would try to justify it yet you have no idea whatsoever what my thoughts are about that particular subject.



What about you and others bringing into the equation IRA bombings when the thread topic is The Bloody Sunday Inquiry and its findings? It was my intentions when I started this thread to discuss the Bloody Sunday Inquiry, but we got into the entire NI war topic.


I brought that up in response to you saying the soldiers should be prosecuted.
I compared it to freed terrorists, from both sides.



You have a habit of taking what I say out of context, your now accusing me of saying you said the Bloody Sunday killings were justified, I never ment it in that way, that was in a reply to you saying " You justify it by saying they were at war' First of all that would also justify all the subsequent acts carried out by The British Armed Forces because they too must have been at war"


So if The IRA Were at war with The British Government it is also fair to assume in turn that The British Army were at war.
You justified IRA bombings and subsequent murders of innocent children as ok as they were at war.
Surely the same applies to The British Army and any civilian casualties were ok because they too were at war.

Ridiculous isn't it.
Civilian casualties of any kind should be unacceptable.



Do you really think we would have gotten to where we are today without the actions of the IRA?


Yes, and you would have had far more supoort on the mainland



Sinn Fein started working towards a peace process at the right time, do you think it was just a matter of ' right lads im bored of fighting, down arms!' they could only work towards peace when the british government would agree to treat them as respected representatives of the catholic people and everything that comes with it, there was lot of policies that had to be agreed upon before the IRA could down arms.


Sinn Fein started negotiating when they knew they had no other option.
Successive governments, both Tory and Labour, refused to negotiate until they laid down arms.
The Britsh people would have been up in arms otherwise.

Respected representatives?
Come on.
Neither McGuiness or Adams have much respct at all.



posted on Jun, 16 2010 @ 09:58 PM
link   

Originally posted by Anam Gra
Its quite obvious to me Retro that this blind faith in your government, your armed forces and the British propaganda machine is one of the reasons that Bloody Sunday was allowed to happen and remained uncovered for 38 years. I must comment at this stage that this is a really positive and joyful time for my community, I believe that Saville has drawn a line under our recent history, that is not to say that we should forget it, we should learn from it. But we must move on in peace. I think we're ready to do that, at last.


Listen Anam Gra, I have no intention of taking part in an endless tit for tat debate. When I say posting statistics proves nothing I do not mean they are inconsequential to the bereaved people. Simply put, in a discussion such as this one it doesn't add to the debate. It's just a final tally of the bloodshed resulting from the Troubles, nothing else.

I do not have blind faith in the government (please do not insult my intelligence) but I genuinely believe that the British Army is one of the most professional in the world. This does not translate to a belief that such an organisation is infallible as it clearly isn't. However, at least it is accountable to a higher standard which cannot be said for all organisations.There's nothing I can say which will be of value to you in regards to the treatment you suffered. I would strongly condemn any such unlawful behaviour by any agent of the state. My point is that the British Army did help a lot of people in Northern Ireland, whether you like to hear it or not. Should the Parachute Regiment have been in Derry during the civil rights march in January, 1972? Given the events surround the tragedy an emphatic no. The Parachute Regiment is not trained for peace-keeping operations and this in my opinion was not a setup but a glaring error in judgement by senior officials who at most, probably dismissed/overlooked the possibility that such an inflamed situation occured. This seems to be the finding on the Saville Inquiry. If you are satisified with its findings, do you concur with its conclusion on the matter? In regards to your comments about the discussions involved between the prime minister and his fellow ministers. How can anyone know for certain? Where is the reference? Can it be verified beyond reasonable doubt? I do not have a problem with the veracity of the comments made by Major General Ford as he wrote a memorandum which confirmed what he said and it is mentioned in the Saville Inquiry. I hope that peace has finally reached Northern Ireland. However, it seems more peace walls have been erected in recent years and there is the looming spectre of dissident action. Speaking of which, do you feel they are exclusively C.I.R.A/R.I.R.A elements or a new dissident group?



posted on Jun, 16 2010 @ 10:12 PM
link   
In truth I do believe that Saville is a flawed piece of work, however, I honestly believe that this is the best the people of Ireland will get from the British government and as far as the central issues are concerned, ie that the innocent people murdered on Bloody Sunday were vindicated, this has been recognised. The prosecution of this war is full of faults nd wrongs that we all will have to accept and move on and learn from. Im hoping for peace!!



posted on Jun, 17 2010 @ 05:02 AM
link   
Just saw your pm today, Tuatha, thanks for the welcome, but they wont let me reply cos Im a newbie!!!
, stick around Ill make it eventually!!



posted on Jun, 17 2010 @ 11:13 AM
link   
reply to post by Freeborn
 


Tha same justification does not apply to the British forces, I have already stated why in previous posts, we are going round in circles here.

And No we would not have gotten to where we are today without SinnFein and the IRA, anyone who thinks we would have is delusional, we tried peaceful marches in the fight for civil rights and they did not work! It didnt help matters that the british army had a complete lack of regard for civilian lives.

What do you think people in your neighbourhood or city would do if they saw their friends/neighbours/relatives gunned down by soldiers at a civil rights march? Do you realize how many people joined up to the IRA after that massacre? That regiment could be blamed for the worst years of the troubles all because of their hatred for the Irish catholic people that day, they enticed thousands to fight back, they are directly responsible for countless young men and women loosing faith in finding a peaceful solution, and understandibly so as that army were supposed to protect the catholic minority in the North.

Oh and btw Pro British forces killed far more innocent civilians than the IRA ever did during the troubles.

And McGuinness and Adams have plenty respect where I come from, Why else would SinnFein get the majority catholic vote?



posted on Jun, 17 2010 @ 11:28 AM
link   

Originally posted by Extreme Pilgrim
reply to post by Lady_Tuatha
 


I agree that there a parallels with the 'War on Terror' but if people have no compassion for those of the same ethnic group, theres never going to be any shown to those of other cultures. Their differences make them easier to demonize and only those with an ability to accept people for being part of the human family, where skin colour and religions are not the mark of a man or woman, are able to see the travesty of the worlds ills.


I agree. People here need to start working together, they already have but there is a minority of people on both sides who are teaching their children who have never experienced the troubles to hate the other side, its ridiculous, how can we move on if these bitter people continue to spread their hatred.

I have many protestant friends, im a strong supporter of the cross community projects which involve a groups of young people from both sides of the community being brought together and sent to work in a foreign country for a couple of months, or away camping in the south for weekends if they are under 18, those projects are great for young people and really brings them together.



posted on Jun, 17 2010 @ 11:29 AM
link   

Originally posted by Anam Gra
Just saw your pm today, Tuatha, thanks for the welcome, but they wont let me reply cos Im a newbie!!!
, stick around Ill make it eventually!!


haha i forgot about the newbie rules, i only joined in may so im a newbie too. Yeah this site is good craic you should stick around, many topics on offer.



posted on Jun, 18 2010 @ 11:20 AM
link   

Originally posted by Lady_Tuatha

Oh and btw Pro British forces killed far more innocent civilians than the IRA ever did during the troubles.

And McGuinness and Adams have plenty respect where I come from, Why else would SinnFein get the majority catholic vote?



Why dont you go to Omagh and tell that to the people of Omagh.

I am sure the police and people and soldiers who scraped body parts off the road would love to hear you speak . or the people who pulled a the body of a baby from the window of a fruit and veg shop...

I am sure if you are so certain of the duplicity in most of your statements you would have people cheering to hear more of your dinosaur sectarian views.

So were you there on Bloody Sunday? I only ask as that would at least excuse your views as hysteria because most young people and moderates have moved on.!



posted on Jun, 18 2010 @ 02:44 PM
link   
Doesnt sound like you've moved on pal!! The point being that McGuinness and Adams stepped up to the plate in their community when their community needed them, in the face of oppression and sectarianism. Through the IRA's campaign the nationalist people of the North have reached some semblance of justice and fairness in all walks of life. The INNOCENT people of Bloody Sunday were denied justice for 38 years, that would not have happened if the IRA hadnt applied the pressure to the British state. And, by the way they did have the mandate from the nationslist people of the North. Now having said that Omagh was a terrible, terrible atrocity, there is absolutely no justification for the murder of civilians, men, women or children. It is important however that we move on, not forget the atrocities but learn from them. There is no sense in openning up old wounds. We have an opportunuity to learn from Omagh and Bloody Sunday and create a situation where it can never happen again



posted on Jun, 18 2010 @ 03:23 PM
link   

Originally posted by Anam Gra
Doesnt sound like you've moved on pal!! The point being that McGuinness and Adams stepped up to the plate in their community when their community needed them, in the face of oppression and sectarianism. Through the IRA's campaign the nationalist people of the North have reached some semblance of justice and fairness in all walks of life.



not your pal! dont know you from adam ,,

Great men alright those two, mc guinness hasn't even the balls to tell the truth of his actions that day... still claims expenses from westminster alright..man of morals .. pull the other one
inspiring..



riddle me this re bloody Sunday what was
Gerald Donaghey doing with nail bombs n his pocket... building a shed?



Gerald Donaghey’s clothingnail bombs



The nail bomb from the left trouser pocket consisted of black adhesive tape wrapped around 37 4-inch round wire nails, which weighed 1lb 1oz. The nails had two different headstamps. The bomb measured about 4½ inches with a diameter of 2 inches. On the inside of the tape there were a few small pieces of explosive residue. Alan Hall’s assistant noted that the bomb seemed to have been “made and left lying around for a few weeks because the nails are corroded and this has stuck to the inside of the tape”.1



posted on Jun, 18 2010 @ 04:46 PM
link   
reply to post by Anam Gra
 


You and the OP have a cheek spreading lies and telling people to move on, when its your IRA still trying to start the troubles up again.

Only last night 17th June, yet another car bomb left outside a police station....

Car bomb blast outside Police station...

STEPHEN CARROL 48 N.I. Policeman...

Just so you know when the family left flowers where Stephen was gunned down by a bunch of chav cowards, The IRA scum burnt them....

Tell your side to Fu*king move on.....











[edit on 18-6-2010 by strangleholder1]

[edit on 18-6-2010 by strangleholder1]

[edit on 18-6-2010 by strangleholder1]



posted on Jun, 18 2010 @ 07:15 PM
link   
I have known a couple of handfuls of men who have served in Northern Ireland, over two generations nearly, and not one of them wasn't deeply affected by the experience. Most of them had come under fire from some kind of projectile during each tour. That there were not more casualties during the occupation in Northern Ireland is a testament to the professionalism of the British Military and the honour exhibited and instilled in the men and women in those services. That doesn’t mean that they should have been there at all, or that they weren’t capable of killing unarmed civilians if ordered to do so.

The Widgery Report was a blatant whitewash, at the very least. Thanks to Mo Mowlam's persistence this was eventually brought to the attention of Blair who ordered the Saville Inquiry. Whether it is worth the almost 200 million quid it cost, remains to be seen, but I think that it was needed and I do believe that the verdict of Unlawful Killing does in some way serve justice and to a limited extent, truth too.

I recently overheard a conversation on a bus between an American and a Romanian. They were discussing their countries relative involvement in the Nato conflicts. The Romanian explained, these conflicts are welcomed, we don't even need to train our armies, NATO do it for us and they pay Nato level wages, so the economy is growing. If Russia, he went on, were to attack the Ukraine, it would be Romania, in Nato line, that would have to respond. It is important to Nato that we are strong, he said. Similarly, for a little group of islands such as ours, it is important that we too have a strong army. Northern Ireland served a purpose and kept the men in fighting mentality and on their toes. I think that for that reason MI5 did all that they could to keep the 'troubles' moving and that the majority of the actions committed in Northern Ireland were under the orchestration of MI5 operatives. It was a training ground on many levels.

Interviewed for BBC Radio 4 Max Hastings, who saw the men involved in Bloody Sunday before they went out that day, said they were 'Gung Ho'. It is possible to argue, that some of the men, at least one of whom was only 19 years age, may have been skittish or ‘over excited’ and fired in error, setting the others off in a panic, but this was the Parachute Regiment, these were well trained, disciplined, men, young or otherwise.

Tony Doherty, the son of Patrick Doherty who was shot by Soldier F on Bloody Sunday, came face to face with his father's killer during the inquiry. He said he was 'remorseless' and so he should be, he was a trained killer, and by then, so was Tony. He joined the IRA soon after his father's murder. Later, Tony Doherty was one of the initiators of peace talks prior to the Good Friday Agreement. He hasn't forgiven his father's killer for the simple reason he says because he hasn't been given the opportunity. 'If forgiveness was sought, then forgiveness would be forthcoming', he believes. Soldier F killed at least four of the thirteen who were murdered that day, and he asks no forgiveness because he was, in his mind, doing his job. He did nothing wrong, if a wrong happened, it happened at someone else’s hand, not his. That is what is training has taught him, he is trained to do as he told, not to think for himself. Listening to his testimony, one might be led to believe, that for Soldier F, Bloody Sunday was just another operation.

Soldier F was 19 on Bloody Sunday. Barely a man. You could understand that he may have heard something, not seen clearly, fired in reflex. But had he done that he would have not been seen fit as a soldier. However, as he told the Saville Inquiry, soon after Bloody Sunday he was moved to Special Forces. Under questioning he concurred that it was likely that he had killed very many people since Bloody Sunday in the service of his country. To be selected for Special Forces so soon after Bloody Sunday he must have acted exactly as he was supposed to in those circumstance which indicates to me that the events of that day, at least for the soldiers, were not as chaotic or frenzied or even confused, as has been attempted to be implied. Soldier F was a trained killer, he killed well that day and got a promotion. Or so one could infer.

The soldiers involved in Bloody Sunday believe that they served their country, that is what they were indoctrinated to believe and they have been, at some point certainly, assured that they were doing the right thing that day. They have been told that that is the truth and therefore that has become their truth. Thirty-Eight years on, twenty odd years in the Army, nothing is ever going to make them admit otherwise, just as Eichmann would never admit to anything other than following orders, neither will they.

Bloody Sunday is a demonstration of what this country expects of those that serve in it's militaries and what it trains them to do. It is clear that the intention on Bloody Sunday was to do damage. We can assume that the officers and NCOs had expected there to be more IRA amongst the protestors to justify the action, that there wouldn’t have been such an out-cry had there been a few militants amongst the dead. Because there wasn't they haven't been able to get away with it or sweep it under the carpet. It hasn’t gone away. This time. But as we have no record of Soldier F's other operational activities, or details of the many other people he has killed in what he would term ‘the line of duty’ we can assume that they usually do get away with these things. Perhaps Soldier F was subsequently a little more careful about witnesses. Who can say?



new topics

top topics



 
9
<< 2  3  4    6 >>

log in

join