Hispanics flee Arizona ahead of immigration law

Originally posted by nine-eyed-eel
reply to post by truthquest

 

When everyone is ultimately perfectly nice to everybody, will even you, then, finally, receive that love that you so desperately deserve?

Sorry I'm missing out on your point. My position on niceness is that some people are nice and others are mean. I'm not see what that has to do with immigration laws which by design separate people into higher and lower classes based on a geographic coordinate system.

If you believe in such a system strongly then write a letter to the nearest 6-figure job as your birthplace. Tell them you were born right near-by and that they should hire you as a native and send the current guy working it from out-of-town packing back to his home town where he can work there instead of "stealing your job" from a far away city. How does that sound to you? Again, I see no reason this would be any different of a concept nationally, globally, or locally. It all makes no sense.

How offended would you be if an employer said they would only hire whites or blacks? Probably very offended because hiring is supposed to be done on the basis of qualifications only. Yet you wouldn't be offended by an employer who said they would hire only people born in the USA? The coordinates of your birthplace are even more irrelevant than skin color, therefore should be just as offensive to you.

Originally posted by truthquest


If you believe in such a system strongly then write a letter to the nearest 6-figure job as your birthplace. Tell them you were born right near-by and that they should hire you as a native and send the current guy working it from out-of-town packing back to his home town where he can work there instead of "stealing your job" from a far away city. How does that sound to you? Again, I see no reason this would be any different of a concept nationally, globally, or locally. It all makes no sense.

If I could get such a job by writing such a letter, I would do so immediately...but writing crazy letters hasn't helped me much in life so far.

You seem to think I should be more concerned about whether the world runs (ostensibly)-justly, and less about whether I get one or two sandwiches for lunch...whereas I think the world will never run "justly" (nor should it - but I digress), and I wonder what benefit you expect to derive for yourself out of your crusade to cause me to lose half my lunch...

Give away all your own stuff to help poor starving persons if you care so much about them, and if not, then why do you permit yourself to keep on talking up the subject as if you did?

And if the world as you find it doesn't seem to make sense to you, maybe you should figure out how it got this way before telling everybody else how it should be changed...just a thought...




[edit on 15-6-2010 by nine-eyed-eel]

reply to post by conspiracy nut


funny how this guy got stars for saying this..

"rockpuck"

"I have no problems with "Hispanics" .. I have a Problem with Mexicans in general, yes. If that hurts your feelings .... Get over it. If you feel slighted because you're Hispanic -- get over it. Because I didn't insult Hispanics. I insulted Mexicans in general, and stated my disapproval of Illegals in general. "

well im sorry if i offend white bigots. i have a big time problem with you "in general"..how soon you forget the irish were vilified and hated on in this country, your ancestors were considered the scum of europe. so yeah as a person of mexican descent i sympathize with the history of your people.

to all the hispanics that came here legally especially project vixon or whatever his name is. i was born here and so has my family as far back as i can trace, i would never defend this rockpuck guy. project vixon defended this guy and from the looks of your avatar you look pretty mexican to me, so if rockpuck were to encounter you on the street he "would have a problem with you in general". keep defending these white bigots projectv maybe one day you will get to explain your legality while catching a beatdown from one of these bigots.

rockpuck your comment was disgusting and i cant believe you got stars for it. seems you have some like minded bigot friends.

the 4 leaf clover is a symbol of white power in some circles, perhaps rockpuck is using the symbol as his avatar for that as opposed to love for his heritage. hmmmmmmm what if a mexican american had a sombrero for his avatar? would that mean he is not assimilating, some of you guys get mad if mexican wave the mexican flag, maybe rockpuck should lose the clover and put up a pic of uncle sam...anyone else see the irony here?

Originally posted by conspiracy nut
reply to post by conspiracy nut

 

funny how this guy got stars for saying this..

"rockpuck"

"I have no problems with "Hispanics" .. I have a Problem with Mexicans in general, yes. If that hurts your feelings .... Get over it. If you feel slighted because you're Hispanic -- get over it. Because I didn't insult Hispanics. I insulted Mexicans in general, and stated my disapproval of Illegals in general. "

well im sorry if i offend white bigots. i have a big time problem with you "in general"..how soon you forget the irish were vilified and hated on in this country, your ancestors were considered the scum of europe. so yeah as a person of mexican descent i sympathize with the history of your people.

to all the hispanics that came here legally especially project vixon or whatever his name is. i was born here and so has my family as far back as i can trace, i would never defend this rockpuck guy. project vixon defended this guy and from the looks of your avatar you look pretty mexican to me, so if rockpuck were to encounter you on the street he "would have a problem with you in general". keep defending these white bigots projectv maybe one day you will get to explain your legality while catching a beatdown from one of these bigots.

rockpuck your comment was disgusting and i cant believe you got stars for it. seems you have some like minded bigot friends.

the 4 leaf clover is a symbol of white power in some circles, perhaps rockpuck is using the symbol as his avatar for that as opposed to love for his heritage. hmmmmmmm what if a mexican american had a sombrero for his avatar? would that mean he is not assimilating, some of you guys get mad if mexican wave the mexican flag, maybe rockpuck should lose the clover and put up a pic of uncle sam...anyone else see the irony here?

Sadly this seems to be the norm here on ATS, It seems like conspiracy theories and aliens two things I really love to read about also attract biggots and white trash.

reply to post by Procession101


funny because i joined this sight because of my love for conspiracy theories but lately i find myself posting more and more on these "illegals" threads.

Originally posted by nine-eyed-eel
You seem to think I should be more concerned about whether the world runs (ostensibly)-justly, and less about whether I get one or two sandwiches for lunch...whereas I think the world will never run "justly" (nor should it - but I digress), and I wonder what benefit you expect to derive for yourself out of your crusade to cause me to lose half my lunch...

Pretty much all of my points have been on the economic effect on your personal pocketbook, and hardly any have been about justice. If it were unjust to not be nationalistic it wouldn't change the fact that you personally dramatically benefit from open borders. You, personally, benefit hugely from the lack of trade & travel barriers between cities. You, personally, benefit hugely from the lack of trade and travel barriers between states in the US. Border controls make you poor, therefore if you want the maximum number of sandwiches for lunch then you ought to be for all borders between all places to be as free and open as possible.

So going back to the Beverly Hills example, lets say the people of Beverly Hills don't want people coming into the city and taking their jobs. What is the best solution?
A. Create a stifling police system, or
B. eliminate welfare which is what is drawing in the people in the first place and causing all the problem.

Again, you take away welfare and suddenly the fictional "immigration problem" disappears because it isn't an immigration problem... it is a welfare problem! And again, if you are going to have x number of immigrants you want them to have a the lowest possible quialifications for the lowest possible change of stealing your job. This all has little to nothing to do with justice. These are provable facts that border controls make you poor and open borders make you less poor (or more rich).

Welfare is handled very well by charity programs and very poorly by the government. It is welfare that has created the illusion of an immigration problem.

Also, since you are not concerned at about justice more than you are about money, just go around stealing stuff. Maybe you can become a house burglar. Remember, money is more important than obscure justice arguments, so go around and steal things. It will make you feel wonderful since you'll have lots of goodies You can watch the "It takes a thief" series and it will train you how to do the job. See... I'm not making the justice argument. Ignore justice. I'm telling you, lets ignore it for this argument because who cares.

reply to post by truthquest


But I do go around stealing, boss...remember I offered to steal your shoes?...but you're holding out on me, holding back on the location of your shoe horde...practice open shoe borders, let your sneakers run free...

But the problem is, your exciting open borders plan will interfere with my stealing career...if all these poverty-stricken foreigners flock here, they are then increasingly likely to compete with me as I run around and steal things...Foreigner X, his twelve cousins, and me, all cruising the suburban lawns, looking for aluminum lawn furniture (and ladders!) that we can pinch and take to the scrap metal recyclers for cash...How is having all of them here going to help me gank more aluminum???

I seem to remember reading that in Florida they had a problem with people actually stealing those huge tall metal streetlight poles, in order to take them to the scrap metal recyclers for cash...I wonder if the fact that it happened in Florida had anything to do with Florida's excitingly high percentage of sweetly-beneficial-foreignborn-economic-migrants?

Probably not...I bet it was just a coincidence...











[edit on 16-6-2010 by nine-eyed-eel]

reply to post by truthquest

And again, if you are going to have x number of immigrants you want them to have a the lowest possible quialifications for the lowest possible change of stealing your job.

Quite the opposite.
Higher qualified persons are needed on the job market, and influx of those would hardly put anyone out of work, and would help country in general.
There is already too much of lower qualified people for too little work opportunities among americans, and influx of more would make the situation even worse.

Originally posted by Maslo

There is already too much of lower qualified people for too little work opportunities among americans, and influx of more would make the situation even worse.

Oh my God, I wish I had thought to say that.

I recognize that I am less-qualified to post than you, now...Good one.

Originally posted by Portugoal

Hispanics flee Arizona ahead of immigration law

www.usatoday.com

Arizona's tough new immigration enforcement law is fueling an exodus of Hispanics from the state seven weeks before it goes into effect, according to officials and residents in the state.

I remember people saying over and over how the US needs illegal immigrants for migrant work and to do the lower paying jobs in the US.

Still haven't heard any news out of Arizona about how this "mass exodus" of illegal immigrants leaving Arizona is hurting the states economy or businesses yet!

Anybody hear anything that could be construed as economically negative for the state about them leaving the state yet?



Anybody?

[edit on 6/16/2010 by Keyhole]

Originally posted by Maslo
reply to post by truthquest

 

Quite the opposite.
Higher qualified persons are needed on the job market, and influx of those would hardly put anyone out of work, and would help country in general.
There is already too much of lower qualified people for too little work opportunities among americans, and influx of more would make the situation even worse.

Brilliant point... and you are totally right. I was playing "devils advocate" by implying there are a limited number of jobs available because that is the anti-immigration position and even accepting that doesn't change the fact that travel barriers are bad.

Contrary to what they say, there are *not* a limited number of jobs. There always has been and always will be certain job markets that are in high demand regardless of how the economy is going. It is total nonsense that there are a fixed number of jobs. This shows it is totally wrong to say, "well there were 1,000,000 immigrants from Mexico last year therefore there are 1,000,000 less jobs for American's this year". Not true! Just as you say, there are jobs that are in high demand and the more qualified people there are the more workers there will be in the industry. Very good point and it is an argument FOR immigration.

There is more problems to travel barriers than that though. When you put in the travel barriers up designed to stop factory workers in Mexico from taking factory jobs in America all you do is you move those jobs to Mexico. So lets look at two scenarios:
A. Put up huge immigration barriers. Ship 100 factory overseas to Mexico.
B. Free up all immigration barriers. Immigrate in 100 people from Mexico who will then work at an American factory.

I'm all about reality and that is the reality of the situation, all things being equal, you either put immigration barriers up at a huge expense and all you do is ship American jobs overseas. I say "I'm all about reality" because it was claimed my arguments are all about a utopian justice. No, this is about maximum dollars in each American's pocket too.

Lets say you have a city called Retardville which is a factory town right next to Moronville which is also a factory town. Retardville could do one of two things:
A. Spend $100,000 on its community getting less retarded, producing a return at least USD $200k for each $100k spent.
B. Spend $250,000 on its community keeping out the people from Moronville and produce a negative return on their investment, since the travel barrier will cost a lot of time and energy in the checking of people's papers and police checkpoints but there will still be the same number of factory jobs between the two cities.

Freedom of travel and low taxes always benefit economies. Maximum freedom of travel always puts the most amount of money in the typical person's pocketbook. Always, in every case.

Again, its obvious that if we had police checkpoints city by city, then no given city would benefit. But its also true state by state, and definitely true country by country as well.

Originally posted by truthquest

reply to post by truthquest

 

I'm all about reality and that is the reality of the situation, all things being equal, you either put immigration barriers up at a huge expense and all you do is ship American jobs overseas. I say "I'm all about reality" because it was claimed my arguments are all about a utopian justice. No, this is about maximum dollars in each American's pocket too.

You may be all about reality (in your secret sticky heart) but you don't speak realistically.

There is nothing in the world that would put maximum dollars in each and every American's pocket...that I can think of...help a brother out...Everything that helps somebody, must proportionately hurt somebody else...If I could power my car for a year by putting my earwax in the gas tank, that would proportionately take away from the value of the oil-well-owner's pile of cash.

In fact, you have been so unrealistic in your turgid stream of arguments - and shifty too, o devil's advocate - I bet all you've ever done in life is learn strings of words, and repeat them, and rearrange them...

Do the people who know you find you more convincing, or do you choose friends from those who already agree with you ?









[edit on 16-6-2010 by nine-eyed-eel]

Originally posted by nine-eyed-eel

Originally posted by truthquest

reply to post by truthquest

 

I'm all about reality and that is the reality of the situation, all things being equal, you either put immigration barriers up at a huge expense and all you do is ship American jobs overseas. I say "I'm all about reality" because it was claimed my arguments are all about a utopian justice. No, this is about maximum dollars in each American's pocket too.

You may be all about reality (in your secret sticky heart) but you don't speak realistically.

In fact, you have been so unrealistic in your turgid stream of arguments - and shifty too, o devil's advocate - I bet all you've ever done in life is learn strings of words, and repeat them, and rearrange them...

Do the people who know you find you more convincing, or do you choose friends from those who already agree with you ?

You are right. I spend all my time learning words and re-arranging them. That is all I ever do and nothing else. And the words are all unconvincing. I would only chose friends who agree with me about every thing, but I have none because I spend all of my time re-arranging words and have no time for friends.

So Mr. Superior, please I need someone with an understanding of reality that I don't have to interpret the data:

seekingalpha.com...

What does that mean? I think it means that Americans are losing jobs to robots. Should we ban robots just like we should ban Mexicans? You know best so please enlighten me.

www.highbeam.com...

In recent decades, China has become a manufacturing powerhouse. The country's official data showed 83 million manufacturing employees in 2002, but that figure is likely to be understated; the actual number was probably closer to 109 million. By contrast, in 2002, the Group of Seven (G7) major industrialized countries had a total of 53 million manufacturing workers. In the late 1990s through the year 2000, China saw declining numbers of manufacturing workers, caused by restructuring and the privatization of state-owned and urban collective-owned factories in the cities. Both massive layoffs of urban manufacturing workers and sharp increases in manufacturing labor productivity ensued. Since then, private-sector manufacturing has thrived in both urban and rural areas of China. The reorganized factories are more productive than state-owned and collective-owned factories and are competitive in the domestic and global economies. China's manufacturing employment began to rise again after 2000, regaining the upward trend of the period from 1980 to 1995.

So Mr. Superior who has a great and successful life (because you spend your time doing other things than re-arranging words and nothing else), does this story mean that US factory jobs are being shipped to China? I think so but you are the one know knows about reality.

And if so, does that then mean that the only thing tight border controls accomplish is shipping jobs overseas to foreigners (as an alternative to immigrants into the US where they would have the job there instead)?

It seems to me like unemployment was very low before the credit bubble burst and that therefore immigration isn't so much as the problem... the credit credit bubble disaster is the problem for unemployement. But since you know the facts and I don't (because I spend 100% of my time arranging words) then you tell me how the credit bubble has nothing to do with today's unemployment and its really all because of Mexicans even though we've had even more intense influxes of immigrants at other points in American history.

reply to post by truthquest


I'm not really interested in telling you any of that stuff.

I just want to reiterate that as a poor, low-wage, downtrodden working American, letting in a bunch of low-skilled Mexican persons to compete with me directly for the same lousy jobs I currently work is not going to benefit me economically.

reply to post by Keyhole
I heard employers were paying people what they were worth now and Americans have thier jobs back.

reply to post by truthquest


Hey truthquest I actually owe you an apology.

I shouldn't have taken the various personally abusive cheap shots at you.

I was unnecessarily ugly and stupid. I did wrong.

Sorry.

Originally posted by nine-eyed-eel
reply to post by truthquest

 

Hey truthquest I actually owe you an apology.

I shouldn't have taken the various personally abusive cheap shots at you.

I was unnecessarily ugly and stupid. I did wrong.

Sorry.

Thanks very much. I appreciate the apology.

+1 nine-eyed-eel & ATS

And to answer your last post yes there are cases where people's jobs are taken by Mexicans due to their ability to work for lower wages. I guess we just disagree on the solutions and what leads to be best outcomes.

This is sort of ironic, isn't it? We already pretty much have this law at the federal level. Problem is no one's enforcing it. By the way, where are they going?

Wisconsin. They say (who ever "they"are), that the population is only around 10% hispanic. I'm here to tell you that sounds really low for where I live. In my place of employment, sometimes it's hard to spot someone who isn't hispanic. I'm sure that not all of them are illegally here, but I wonder just how many of them are?
If hispanic's are leaving in droves from Arizona, it makes me wonder...
Why would you leave if you were not illegal?

Originally posted by KrispyB
reply to post by Keyhole

 

I heard employers were paying people what they were worth now and Americans have thier jobs back.

Well, if that's true all is well and the US economy isn't going to collapse then if other states follow Arizona's lead!

Imagine that, paying people for what they're worth.

Sounds like Arizona's new law is working well.