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Why should I subsidize your religion? Tax the Churches!

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posted on Jun, 7 2010 @ 08:29 AM
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One of the last sacred cows is taxing churches? The Constitution is clear on seperation of church and state, so why the UnConsitutional exemption for churches? Please read before you Christians cry unfair!
Believe what ever you want, but why should the public pay for it? The time has come to end this scam.

Tax the Churches

[edit on 7-6-2010 by OldDragger]

" Because it costs you and me billions. We are not talking chump change here. Consider that for every tax dollar a religious organization does not pay, you and I pay it on its behalf. Many are among the wealthiest organizations in the world: by 1971, the amount of real and personal property owned by U.S. churches was approx. $110 billion. In New York City alone, the amount was $3 billion in 1989. A 1986 estimate showed religious income in that year of approx. $100 billion, or about five times the income of the five largest corporations in the U.S. All tax free. "



[edit on 7-6-2010 by OldDragger]




posted on Jun, 7 2010 @ 08:49 AM
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reply to post by OldDragger
 


lol..wow..thats hardcore. Cant say I blame you for your sentiments, but I think they fall under a 501 c(3) kind of operation..actually I really have no idea,..non profits are supposed to donate to churches and charity to achieve their status...so I guess my argument is if the churches are taxed (usually churches and charities go hand in hand) then who do the corporations and non profits donate to?

and just to throw it out tere Im agnostic..not chistian...i just thought that was a pretty gnarly idea...maybe tax all the greedy fundamentalist churches and tbn style scams out there..im on board with that...



posted on Jun, 7 2010 @ 08:56 AM
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Because these religious corporations cannot police themselves- yes, tax them. If they are shown to be making more than 75% of their congregations, and living at a much higher standard of life- they need to be taxed. Heavily. When these 'Mega Churches' are being built, and the community around them is still suffering, tax them. If they (the preachers, ministers, ect- they make this personally) make 1 million dollars, tax 90% of it.

I call it the 'humble tax'.

[edit on 7-6-2010 by wylekat]



posted on Jun, 7 2010 @ 08:57 AM
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I agree with you totally!
I still can't understand why a belief system needs money?
Surely if I want to believe in something, then i believe in it.
I don't need money to change hands to do that.
If the Church makes money, then the church should pay taxes like everyone else.



posted on Jun, 7 2010 @ 09:08 AM
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going into the link makes things a bit more clear. a great idea indeed.

its all abut accountability..not screwing the cngregations that donate..


Because religious organizations are not accountable to the citizens who subsidize them. If churches engage in charitable work that benefits the community, do all citizens have an interest in supporting such endeavors with, say, various tax exemptions? Of course. This is the sound basis for tax exemptions for non-profit organizations, whose activities and finances are subject to IRS audit and public scrutiny. In the case of religious organizations, however, the books are closed.


making the church file a tax return with the proper exemption forms can kep them accountable to the people who support them and hopfully the scammers off the podium..a good thing for the community

[edit on 7-6-2010 by open_eyeballs]



posted on Jun, 7 2010 @ 09:22 AM
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I've been trying to see the OPs side of the issue, really. I just don't see how it could ever be viewed as constitutional.

Taxation is a form of government control and when the free exercise clause says ..."Congress shall make no law...prohibiting the free exercise of religion" I think it's pretty clear; when government taxes something it's exerting a measure of control thus restricting freedom.

If government has the authority to tax churches it has the power to diminish churches and that's precisely what the framers wanted to avoid.



posted on Jun, 7 2010 @ 09:30 AM
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reply to post by monkcaw
 


i think you should check out the link...you will get a more clear idea of the proposal. it isnt about actually taxing the churches. its about holding them accounable just as NPOs are held accountable for their status.

it would actually protect the community...and hopefully weed out all the scammers out there...

i can see this only being good especially in the Bible belt where the fundies take advantage of all the God fearing siners out there, and only tithing can help God forgive them of their sins



posted on Jun, 7 2010 @ 09:33 AM
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Originally posted by monkcaw
I've been trying to see the OPs side of the issue, really. I just don't see how it could ever be viewed as constitutional.

Taxation is a form of government control and when the free exercise clause says ..."Congress shall make no law...prohibiting the free exercise of religion" I think it's pretty clear; when government taxes something it's exerting a measure of control thus restricting freedom.

If government has the authority to tax churches it has the power to diminish churches and that's precisely what the framers wanted to avoid.



Surely you would also make that argument in support of repealing all gun control laws as well then correct?

Since they too are unconstitutional, yet firearms are still taxed.



posted on Jun, 7 2010 @ 09:45 AM
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reply to post by monkcaw
 


Everyone else is taxed on income and property, why the exemption for religion only?
If churches are non-profit fine. They can meet the same standards as any other non profit oginization.
WHY shouls any church get prefferential treatment? It's an illegal endorsement of religion by the State.



posted on Jun, 7 2010 @ 09:45 AM
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reply to post by OldDragger
 


I'm not totally sure you know what you are talking about. See..here is the deal. Every church is funded by its own congregation. Meaning......the church will only make as much money as the number of followers it has. Now...I work, and I go to church. My money that I give to the church was already taxed when I got my paycheck. My money that I give to the church is a charitable donation..and therefore cannot be taxed. The church than uses that money to pay...bills..electric, heat, air, water, cleaning. It then goes on to pay the people who work at the church..the Pastors and helpers (some do just volunteer and then others are paid) In many cases the Pastor himself is also volunteer and has an actual Job during the week...Like my grandfather, whose paycheck is taxed when he goes to work at Home Depot
and then volunteers to be the pastor at our local church on Sundays and Wednesdays. On top of the bills the church gives to a handful of charitable groups...food pantry, daycare for free, christmas presents and school supplies for kids...etc....all those charitable donations are free from being Taxed. Just as any charitable donation you give to any charitable organization is tax exempt. So basically...you want to government to pay extra money to incorporate churches so they too can be taxed...but then the church is going to give that money to charitable donations that are tax exempt.....so we would then be paying the government even more in tax revenue for all the employees they will have to sort all the paperwork out. So..instead they made it easy...Churches became Tax Exempt..because they work strictly by the congregation giving money...my money..that is already taxed and then given to the church as a charitable donation. If my charitable donation is going to be taxed..then any charitable donation would have to start being taxed...just some FYI..my husband and I own our own business...something we have found out? All businesses...in the entire country? are tax exempt..when we go to the store to buy supplies for our business? we do not pay taxes on it..and neither do any other businesses in the country......place taxes on the church..and that would have to go away as well. So..be sure you know all the insides and outs before you think you know exactly what you are talking about.

By the way..here is just a run down of what our church (Northpoint Community Church run by Andy Stanley, son of Charles Stanley..he also gave the inaugural prayer for President Obama) gave away in just the last year to charitable organizations:

Food pantry took in over 15 full sized uhaul trucks of nonperishable foods (they thought it was a nationwide effort when we pulled the trucks up
we were able to take in that much food within a matter of 3 months

I'm not sure of the exact hours? but 1500 people who volunteered to work full time for 1 full year so single moms and low income families could have free daycare.

2000 doctors who gave away free care for needy

1500 dentists

8 full sized uhaul trucks of clothing...completely full

10 full sized uhaul trucks completely full of christmas presents and baby supplies

5 tons of school supplies for Iraqi schools for girls...called in as a request from our very own men over there.

in one weekend we took in 285,000 dollars in extra donations to send to Haiti...there has of course been more than that..but that was in the weekend directly after the quake.

numerous missionaires who travel all over the world to give medical care, and build houses and of course churches...many don't know, but when you go on a mission trip? you pay for it yourself..and yes, you do end up paying taxes on those tickets and supplies that you take


much more I could list i'm sure...but I think this gives a pretty good idea on just what it is churches do with their "untaxed" money. What charities do you help?



[edit on 7-6-2010 by Nkinga]



posted on Jun, 7 2010 @ 09:47 AM
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reply to post by monkcaw
 



Taxing profits and requiring accountability is not "controlling the church".
you dont need money to pray nor do you NEED a palace to worship in.
Standing in a garage every sunday doesnt make you a Mercedes.
If you WANT a palace to worship in, fine.. just pay taxes on every cent collected to fund construction, just like everyone else



posted on Jun, 7 2010 @ 09:50 AM
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reply to post by Nkinga
 




My paycheck is taxed before I give it to Home depot... yet they still tax my purchase... and they require Home depot to pay tax on my taxed money they collected.
how is the church different than HD?

I gave them money.. and they should have to pay tax on the funds collected.
but naw.. it's GOD's money. ( and apparantly he wanted the preacher to roll in style)



posted on Jun, 7 2010 @ 09:50 AM
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Yeah, that is what we need. MORE taxes.



I will not support one single cent in tax increases until our government is at least somewhat fiscally responsible.



posted on Jun, 7 2010 @ 09:51 AM
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reply to post by Nkinga
 


sure..all that is fine..but there are many many many instances where the greedy snake oil salesman/ preacher at the top rake in 6 even 7 figure salaries all based off peoples grandfathers donations.

and what do they do for their congregations and listeners? sell them some scam like "purchase the holy rocks that jesus walked on and bless your entire family for only $9.99 a week"..

it pretty sad when theres no accountability in these scenarios...



posted on Jun, 7 2010 @ 09:52 AM
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Just wondering how not taxing something is subsidizing it?

The air I breathe is not taxed yet, does that mean it is being subsidized?

Heck, I think we should tax all the hot air out there, that should cover everything.



posted on Jun, 7 2010 @ 09:55 AM
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reply to post by AshleyD
 


in this case..yes...please follow the link..its asking for accountability. Im surprsed that a moderator would post so no chalantly without a ittle more investigating...



posted on Jun, 7 2010 @ 10:00 AM
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reply to post by wylekat
 


Yes go ahead and tax us.
Then you would have given us voice in the government.
We will become the largest lobby, special interest group in the world.
So yes go head and tax us.



posted on Jun, 7 2010 @ 10:02 AM
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reply to post by Bad Ninja
 


When you give money to say...food for the homeless..should that money be taxed? Its my money the church is taking in....my money that I freely give...and yes..sure you pay the taxes on the items at home depot..are they a charitable organization? The churches do have to meet guidelines in order to be tax exempt...its not like someone can build a building say its a church and then take in money for free....there are things they have to do to be considered a "church" by our government..there are things they have to do and show in order to be tax exempt. but you totally disregarded what I also said.....our government would hire more workers that they would have to pay in order to make the paperwork for taxed churches...as well as more than most likely a whole department that would be just for taxing churches..a department and employees..that we the american people would pay for through taxes......so where exactly is the winfall? what exactly are you accomplishing by taxing the churches?

Not only that but what about the millions of businesses across the country that are tax exempt? my husband and I go to home depot...we buy supplies for the business...its tax exempt...how is that any different?

When I send money to feed the children..its tax exempt..how is that any different? its my money....buying something at home depot, and giving to a church are two different things. Sure..you can tax the churches and many of them will be able to show so many write offs that it will make it obsolete...and therefore you now have a government program in place that we the tax payers will have to pay for..but guess what? it will only cost us money because the churches will have all their write offs. You guys obviously have no idea how money and taxes work.



posted on Jun, 7 2010 @ 10:03 AM
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reply to post by monkcaw
 




Taxation is a form of government control and when the free exercise clause says ..."Congress shall make no law...prohibiting the free exercise of religion" I think it's pretty clear; when government taxes something it's exerting a measure of control thus restricting freedom.


For a classic abuser of this: See Westboro Baptist Church. Read up on it. There are churches that are to a lesser degree just like this joint.



posted on Jun, 7 2010 @ 10:05 AM
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reply to post by open_eyeballs
 


There are many charities that are scams..does that mean we tax all of them? there are many businesses that have bad business practices and in some cases practice illegal means..does it mean we stop tax exempts for all businesses in the country? Some people make up false write offs...does that mean we don't let anyone have any write offs?



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