Why should I subsidize your religion? Tax the Churches!

reply to post by Loken68

We will become the largest lobby, special interest group in the world.

You already are. Your point?

reply to post by Loken68


Huh? How does paying taxes give churches any more lobbying power than they already have. Are you trying to tell me churches such as the Catholics, LDS, evangelical don't lobby and try to influence the government as much as possible?
Puleeez!

reply to post by open_eyeballs


Pardon? Did you read the article? It mentions more than accountability.

The current scheme is unfair and unnecessary. Churches can and should pay taxes, just like everybody else.

The name of the movement is taxthechurches.org.

It talks about repealing the tax exemption (Translation: more taxes).

The article encourages the reader to appeal to congress to tax the churches.

Etc.

So, yes. My post above is not 'nonchalant.' And me being a mod has nothing to do with anything.

reply to post by AshleyD


the first pararaph is pretty clear. Its asking for the same treatment as NPOs.

what is wrong with that? are you saying chuches should get preferential treatment from the gvernment because they follow religious doctrine?


jesus..there have even been terrorist ties with some churches...maybe some of that could be weeded out if they had to report where the money was actually going...or at least minimalized to some degree..

certainly you realize there has been abuses within the framework of religious "charity"? a little accountability normall serves the constituent well.

Im not saying to tax churches outright, but having some accountability to the community it is supposed to be serving would be a good thing... having some record surely would be better than none at all...

and i was referring to your attitude in your first post...no substaniation..just "oh..horrible idea..taxes..church!? no way jose..wont even read! ill just comment willy nilly"..., and I believe being a moderator comes with a certain standard...i may be wrong

exuse me if i misinterpreted your post

reply to post by Old Dragger


You are correct, But now your going to give all of them a voice that would be louder than others. Think about it..........

The ACLU and the Southern Baptist will be going head to head and keeping all the courts bogged down. Most Christians really don't worry about where there personal taxes are spent, yeah you may hear them gripe and fuss about it a little, But you force them to start paying a "second" tax on money they tithe. You will have pastors preaching against government and pretty soon you'll have preachers running for office and winning.

I am a Christian but I don't think you want these folks pulling the stings on a grand scale that this would bring about.

Besides this, it's not going to happen anyway. The crooks in office don't want to share power with religious organizations. I've always said you can't be a true Democrat and serve God. And for the last twenty years I'm beginning to believe you can't in either party.

Taxation of the church would be fuel for the fire for the Tea partiers.

Now saying all that let me say this. It would have been better for the founding fathers to have decided this long ago. If it were implemented today it would only bring on more division in this country. But rest assured God is still in charge so it's probably not going to happen.

Dan 2:21 And he changeth the times and the seasons: he removed kings, and setteth up kings: he giveth wisdom unto the wise, and knowledge to them that know understanding:
Dan 2:22 He revealeth the deep and secret things: he knoweth what [is] in the darkness, and the light dwelleth with him. -KJV


[edit on 7-6-2010 by Loken68]

reply to post by open_eyeballs

exuse me if i misinterpreted your post

You most certainly did if this is what you gathered from it:

and i was referring to your attitude in your first post...no substaniation..just "oh..horrible idea..taxes..church!? no way jose..wont even read! ill just comment willy nilly"..., and I believe being a moderator comes with a certain standard...i may be wrong

I have now read the article for the second time. You seem to be misrepresenting the article. Yes, the article does mention accountability- which is always good. However, that is not the entirety of the focus.

It mentions accountability but also is calling for new taxes. Someone is responding 'willy nilly' but it isn't me. Please read the article yourself and comprehend it before [wrongfully] accusing others of not reading it.

reply to post by Loken68

But rest assured God is still in charge so it's probably not going to happen.

oh boy. dont want o go into this...but i have to agree with you on the rest of your post. it woud light a fire under the fundamentalist conspiracy theorist..wed have the nutters coming out of the woodworks.

more than they already are

Amusing that some of you seem to think this is some radical idea.
So, nobody has posted a logical of legal reason why churches are exempt. Yes, some have post their reasons, but i don't think they make a lot of sense!
Should anti religious organizations be tax exempt? Why or why not?
if not, isn't that a tacit endorsement of religion by the government?

The OPs article is definitely in favor of a direct tax on churches:

The current scheme is unfair and unnecessary. Churches can and should pay taxes, just like everybody else.

The next time Congress is looking for an extra couple billion to finance a war, tell them to look no further than an income tax on religious payroll.

And yes, I understand the sentiment...all the frauds and scammers walking around like rock stars putting on a show, it's just embarrassing.

But when the article says stuff like this the libertarian in me gets a cold chill:

Tax-exempt status is a privilege - not a right...

Because when it come to religion or churches it is a right. The government does not have the authority to bless a church as tax exempt, churches need not ask permission, file a form or get a permit. Churches are de-facto exempt because they are separate and apart from government in the United States. Churches must be separate. Any other way invites tyranny. And I'd rather suffer the mega-churches, frauds and scammers than a taxing government.

People want churches to be accountable, that's great, but they are not, cannot and must never be accountable to government by way of taxes.

And to BRAINWRECK:

Yes, I do think all gun laws should be repealed, why not? But I'm a radical of course and that's a different thread.

reply to post by AshleyD


so ill take your non comment as you do believe churches should get preferential treament over other charitable organizations.

thats what this is about..not whether you or i are agreeing on the articles intentions...please give your opinion on that major points of the topic and why. not the tangents.

the major points are why churches should not be accountable to the communities they reside in.

or should i call it quits because there is a bias?

reply to post by OldDragger


exactly..im on board partner

reply to post by monkcaw

The government does not have the authority to bless a church as tax exempt,

the government is the only authority to give a exempt status...and a blessing doesnt seem like the best way to describe it...

churches need not ask permission, file a form or get a permit. Churches are de-facto exempt because they are separate and apart from government in the United States. Churches must be separate.

this has no bearing and doesnt really make sense. private business is also seperate from the government yet stil has to pay taxes...locally and federally. no one is insinuating the government shoud have any control over churches or somehow be linked to a church..

what the government should do is play its proper role in the regulation process...something most libertarans agree on...inluding myself.

reply to post by Nkinga


You say you already paid the taxes on the money you tithe to your church. So I assume under that logic then you don't pay sales tax, property taxes, or any that I'm missing atm because, in your theory, you've already paid taxes on that money once?

I say hold them accountable. Like anything else, you have too many people abusing this system. I think even NPO laws need to be overhauled. There's something really wrong when the heads of these entities are bringing down high 6 figure salaries.

reply to post by PayMeh


im honestly ok with 6 figure salaries for some of these npo execs. a few reasons...

higher salaries will encourage better educated execs and more capable and savvy employees to work for the company ultimately making it a better and hopefully more efficient orgaizatin. Also many NPOs offer great services and emlpoy many employees, therefore keeping those people employed becomes almost as important as the services they provide. And most of th execs that go into the npos take a big time pay cut...from millions to hundreds of thousands..still alot, but not compared to what they could be making at some big corporation...its all about being competitive...

agreed though...there should be an overhaul on some of the laws and statuses..i know they have clamped down a bit, but no doubt there is more that could be done.

then of course you have some **ahem** "minister" making millions on some bs speech about "Gawd" on a stage with brightlights being broadcast to millions....essentially acting...and not paying a dime in taxes

[edit on 7-6-2010 by open_eyeballs]

reply to post by open_eyeballs

When it comes to taxing churches the issue of authority is critical and government lacks authority otherwise they would've long since been taxed.

Other businesses and corporations may be separate from government but that does not preclude them from government regulations, taxation and other interventions by the state whereas churches do not have this burden.

The point is that churches are not tax exempt because government says so, they are exempt for the simple fact they are churches, because the must be.

[edit on 7-6-2010 by monkcaw]

Originally posted by OldDragger
reply to post by monkcaw

 

Everyone else is taxed on income and property, why the exemption for religion only?
If churches are non-profit fine. They can meet the same standards as any other non profit oginization.
WHY shouls any church get prefferential treatment? It's an illegal endorsement of religion by the State.

Maybe because most churches raise and give money, time and effort for their respective communities? The church I go to has numerous programs to help the local community and raises a lot of money for different causes. The church is reaching out to help those in need. Why would you want to tax an organization that is already doing good for everyone? If you tax those churches that means less money to go out to the community and instead goes into government coffers. Can we trust government to do the right thing with that money? Look at our national debt and how Congress continues to approve money for Iraq and Afgahnistan and I think you will have your answer.

I'm not anti Catholic.
here is an example though, the financial statement from the vatican for 2000. The church took in ....422. BILLION dollars.

Vatican Statement

Now that's a fair piece of change!

reply to post by monkcaw


Prejudice ?
Then why not exempt churches and clergy from all laws?
In a secular society , the church should be treated the same as any other entity.

They are not taxed because they are non-profit orgs just like the non-religious charities everyone gives to. This doesn’t mean all non-profit orgs are the same. I don’t think it takes very much of their money devoted to the non-profit side to get tax relief…something like 35%. So what we see happening is a group might show a 60% overhead cost and 40% charity and get tax free benefits, so maybe the direction to go with this is to raise it to 85% and only allow 15% for overhead cost to get tax benefits. There are churches and charities that abuse all this, but then there are many that don’t, so I do not want to penalize all.

[edit on 7-6-2010 by Xtrozero]

reply to post by black cat


thats fine...theres nothing wrong with that..in fact its encouraged and should be rewarded with a tax exmpt status..all we are asking them to do is to prove it.