Originally posted by Dark Ghost
Originally posted by dalan.
Weren't these adults once kids themselves? Do you think their childhood experiences influenced the way they turned out as adults? You want to protect
the rights of the adult and let them do bad stuff to their kids because that is their right?
I know that my stance on this is very strange, and I wrestle with it everyday, I personally would never want to see any child abused...EVER. From a
personal perspective, if my Mother and Stepfather had had full natural rights over me as a child, with no State intervention, I do not know what the
outcome would have been. I am very much-so on the fence. People claim that children have natural rights, but which ones? We would not give a 6 year
old a gun because we know that they are not competent to exercise that right with any responsibility...and it would be extremely dangerous for the 6
I know that it is an extreme view that I have, but I do believe that children are the property of their parents. I do not advocate chaos, in my view a
republic is a form of Government that is set up through a social contract ie, not through coercion of the people. We set-up such government to
protect our natural rights that cannot be taken away, because we were endowed with them from birth. So the job of the government is to protect
property, question is, what counts as property? Well, first and foremost your body, and anything that you own outside of that is an extension of the
first...land, your car, even children. You have to wonder that, if children are not the property of their parents, and parents only hold custody
granted to them by the State...then our children are, rightfully the property of the State. If they were not the property of the State, no social
worker would have the authority, nor the jurisdiction, to intervene on behalf of the State.
Am I against child abuse? Yes, do I feel that I have the right or the authority to stop someone from abusing their kids? No. It is an extremely tough
call, because if I said yes, I would be throwing all of my own beliefs regarding natural rights out-the-_
Please do not be offended by my stance that children are the property of their parents. The reason why
I feel that way is for good reason, and
I do realize the negative ramifications for children not fortunate enough to be born into a nurturing home. As an example, I read a story about a goth
couple with a daughter who were teaching their daughter about paganism and had many books in the home dealing with occultism. The Mother of the wife
in this relationship was devoutly Christian, and felt that her daughter was corrupting her granddaughter. So the Grandmother took her daughter to
court and eventually won custody of her granddaughter...and after reading the story I feel sorry for the little girl because the Grandmother seems
downright insane. If I can find a link to the story, I will post it.
From my perspective, the Mother of the child had every right to teach her daughter whatever she felt fit, and if children are property, and all rights
derive from property...then the court would have had no choice but to rule in favor of the mother and not the grandmother. It was a very shady-case.
Having your child taken away simply because you seem eccentric to everyone else.
I agree. Perception is very important. But there MUST be certain rules and boundaries - even in your idea of a Republic. If you don't have
these things then you are not living in a Republic; you are living in a chaotic world where everybody can do anything they want and not suffer any
consequences because everything becomes a "difference in perception."
Of course there must be rules and boundaries, I completely agree. I feel that those rules and boundaries should be set-up to protect our natural
rights, and to protect our property.
I do not take pleasure in offending others. I will speak out when I feel it is justified. But that does not mean I will needlessly offend
others just because I can.
Right, I understand, I feel the same, but I do feel that we should not be afraid to express ourselves simply because we may offend someone; although I
wouldn't go out-of-my-way to offend anyone either. it just so happens I offend people quite easily just being myself...
You really need to start thinking about this whole thing from the kid's point of view. If children are mistreated at an early age, it is very
likely they will develop psychological problems later in their adult life. Do you see how this impacts them when they become adults? You are
stating that people with bad childhoods should be free to grow up and raise kids with bad childhoods. Is that your idea of a Republic?
I know how it impacts them, and I know the dilemma of my own stance; but like I said, I personally do not feel like I have the authority or the right
to stop someone from being abused just because I do not agree with it.
Not blindfolded, but not out in the desert surrounded by cactuses either. A happy medium maybe?
Of course, and this is where I feel our responsibility as parents plays a huge role. We would be very hard-pressed to try to protect our children from
everything that we find indecent. Which, of course, is no excuse not to try, but as a parent, we can be there for our children to try to help to guide
them in a manner that we find more respectable. Personally, if my children had seen the video the OP posted, and were questioning me about the
behavior I would be completely honest with them as to my viewpoint, and I would try to engender in them the skills necessary to think for themselves.
So that someday, they can get to a place where they may be less impressionable, and better able to make up their own minds as to what they feel is
right or wrong for themselves. Without feeling pressured to do something, or to be something by any outside force.
Even if you and I disagreed with how we raised our children, I would still staunchly defend your right as a parent, to raise them how you see fit;
because that is how I truly feel on this issue; and I do not think that we see that enough. Say for instance that you did not like the behavior
portrayed in the video and you were very vocal about it; but since you did not agree with what the parents did with their daughters in the
video...someone came along to try and take your kids away because they saw you as an "unfit" parent simply on the basis of you not agreeing with
them. That is where my stance comes from. I would be there to defend you
every step of the way. It is my responsibility and duty to do so.
You need to read over this paragraph again. I think deep down you know there is a difference.
Yes, I realize that there is a difference, and like I said...it tends to be a wrestling match with myself on this issue.
The point is if parents raise their kids properly, you don't need the state to do the job for you.
Not at all, but can you see where perhaps you would not have natural rights as a parent? I mean think about that statement...if you do not raise your
children properly, the State will do it for you. Who gets to make that decision and why? Where is their authority to do so coming from?
And what is the basis for raising your children properly?
Maybe this is another case of perception?
I do believe so, yes.
You have no objections to being allowed to abuse your kid because they get bad grades, I do object to this behavior.
I do have strong objections to such behavior, I just do not know if I have the authority to do anything about it. Which I believe, personally, that I
do not. To me it would be the antithesis to living in any manner of a republic. If the State, or any ruling body can intervene, even if their
intervening is playing a positive role, we are playing a dangerous game. Where do we cross the line and tell the State and the majority NO! I think
that is what I am interested in.
You believe parents have the right to treat children any way they choose because whether they nurture or abuse, it is their right. I don't
believe they have the right to abuse their kids. In my head there is a clear difference between nurture and abuse.
There is an extremely clear difference between nurture and abuse. I do believe that children are the property of their parents until the day that they
as to be responsible for themselves. Like I have said its an extremely hairy subject. We cannot make decisions for other parents
regarding their children, and within the annuls of American Law History, this is exactly how it used to be. It was not until after the Civil War that
our views started changing regarding who has the final say over someone's children...and because of contract law, the State does.
[edit on 5/19/2010 by dalan.]