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Perpetual Debt and Perpetual Obligations

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posted on May, 3 2010 @ 11:35 AM
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Have you ever felt that all encompassing drain on your life? Have you ever felt that if you just work a little harder you will be able to get far enough ahead, yet no matter how hard you work, it does not seem to help.

I am referring to the perpetual debt or obligations placed on you.

Let us first look at what your obligations are. If you have a debt, you are paying for the principle, the interest, and the insurance on that debt.

Then you have your "supposed" property. I say "supposed" because in modern days, unless you are rich enough to create shelters like foundations, charities or some other tax shelter, you really do not own your property.

Allodial Title-Wiki breakdown of Allodial Title



Allodial title is inalienable, in that it cannot be taken by any operation of law for any reason whatsoever.


There is that pesky thing again-inalienable right. Americans, ever wonder why our founders used that word unalienable rights. It means that it cannot be taken away.

I have gotten into arguments with lawyers and others that have stated that the government, if it feels it is in their or the citizenry as a whole, they can take away individual rights.

WRONG!



This right here, We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.

The founders believed (CORRECTLY) that governments will trample the rights of the individual, for whatever their reasons, as easily as an apple falls to the ground.

It seems they have done it. Making everyone believe that your labor, your property and your liberty are not yours but theirs.

Look at your vehicle, do you own it? If you did, why do you have to pay a registration fee and the title fee. The title is not a true title, it is a fake one. It actually transfers ownership to the state of residence. That is why each year you have to pay again and if you move you have to transfer the title. If you have to transfer the title, does this not raise your awareness of who actually owns the vehicle.

Alright, now that we have discussed a couple components.



Let us look at where we are now. We do not own anything. We do not control our very own assets.

You could actually say now, we are in the same boat as serfs of the king. We are peasants in the eyes of our overlords.

If this is not true, can they take your land for any reason? Of course they can and do constantly.

The feeling you are getting right now is HOW DARE THEY? If you are not, you are really not yet awake. Let me shake you a little more.

The reason why years ago in this country that they had it a little easier was because if you owned your property, you did not have to pay for the very right of ownership. Once you owned everything you needed, you did not have to keep paying for the privilege.

What they have created is the perfect hamster wheel for you and I. We can never stop running, if we do someone else will take your place on the wheel. You are not allowed to stop because that does not benefit them.

So carry on my fellow rats, unless you want to get off of the cycle of-

Perpetual Debt and Perpetual Obligations





edit to add-Thanks to Sinter Klaas, I would like to add this little analogy.

Debt and taxation by our governments could be considered the perfect perpetual motion machine. The debt and the taxation creates a harmonic that increases with its own momentum. The more it persists, the longer and more extreme the oscillations become. Until the very system rips itself apart.

Consider this video as an analogy-





[edit on 5/3/2010 by endisnighe]




posted on May, 3 2010 @ 12:18 PM
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Debt is Slavery. The National Debt is a National Slavery.

Debt is a Weapon of mass enslavement (WME).

Some of the greatest weapons ever devised were DEBT, INTEREST & CREDIT.....More powerful than the Hydrogen Bomb.

With these weapons, bankers have conquered nearly every nation on Earth.



posted on May, 3 2010 @ 12:18 PM
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reply to post by endisnighe
 




Look at your vehicle, do you own it? If you did, why do you have to pay a registration fee and the title fee. The title is not a true title, it is a fake one. It actually transfers ownership to the state of residence.


No your car is yours. You have to pay registration to drive it on public streets, if you do not want to pay it that is fine but you have to drive it on private roads. The title means the car is yours you just pay a title tax on it.



If this is not true, can they take your land for any reason? Of course they can and do constantly.

The feeling you are getting right now is HOW DARE THEY? If you are not, you are really not yet awake. Let me shake you a little more.


Who are "they" and im not sure what you are talking about nobody is taking my land and i have not heard of "they" taking anyone elses.



The reason why years ago in this country that they had it a little easier was because if you owned your property, you did not have to pay for the very right of ownership. Once you owned everything you needed, you did not have to keep paying for the privilege.


Are you talking about property tax?



So carry on my fellow rats, unless you want to get off of the cycle of-


Perpetual Debt and Perpetual Obligations


Here is an idea, do not get anything you can't pay for or do not get something if you cannot keep up with the payments. If something is too expensive and you do not want to get a loan for it that is not the bank's fault. Just go ahead and ask Peter Joseph or Michael Moore if they would give you an interest free loan.



posted on May, 3 2010 @ 12:26 PM
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reply to post by zaiger
 


You are sidestepping the issues I bring up.

Yes your argument of not putting your vehicle on the road has a little basis on my contention, but not so much. If you buy a food item and are not allowed to eat it without paying further, do you actually own it?

They are the government. Taxation is just another form of the serfdom created by the oligarchs. Tell me, if you need to pay a tribute to your king on your land, do you actually own it?

If I pay for something, is it not mine? Or is it owned by someone else?

Semantics, you say taxation, I say serfdom.



posted on May, 3 2010 @ 12:33 PM
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reply to post by endisnighe
 




You are sidestepping the issues I bring up.


What issue? Paying taxes??



Yes your argument of not putting your vehicle on the road has a little basis on my contention, but not so much. If you buy a food item and are not allowed to eat it without paying further, do you actually own it?

They are the government. Taxation is just another form of the serfdom created by the oligarchs. Tell me, if you need to pay a tribute to your king on your land, do you actually own it?

If I pay for something, is it not mine? Or is it owned by someone else?


If you purchased food you would pay the taxes on it when you bought it, unless you are ra reseller then you charge taxes when you sell it.



Semantics, you say taxation, I say serfdom.


No.... Rich people pay tax too.

Your argument does not really work you just keep brining borad situations and asking questions that just make it look like you have no idea of what you are talking about
"if you bought a tree is it yours even though you have to pay for it?"



posted on May, 3 2010 @ 12:45 PM
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reply to post by zaiger
 


No, super rich people do NOT pay taxes. Foundations, charities, trusts, etc etc etc.

These entities are what we use to be able to have.

Yes, your mention of sales tax has NOTHING to do with my contentions here.

You have a choice to buy or not to buy. You do not have a choice when you purchase something and you get perpetual taxes on those items.

It is directly the same as serfdoms in the past, where we do not really own our property any longer.

You do not own something if you have to pay for the privilege of using it.

edit to add-I am talking about taxes on things that are already paid for.

[edit on 5/3/2010 by endisnighe]



posted on May, 3 2010 @ 01:01 PM
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reply to post by endisnighe
 


Well if you do not like paying propery tax do not buy property. If you do not want to pay for vehicle registration do not drive a car.



posted on May, 3 2010 @ 01:06 PM
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reply to post by zaiger
 


Well isn't that the SOP for the ruling class?

Oh well, some eyes open, some remain closed.



posted on May, 3 2010 @ 01:22 PM
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Interesting thread and I agree with what your saying. The idea of ownership and property is one I like to think about often.

may be a silly question but I was wondering what SOP stood for?

Thanks and kudos op. I'll be keeping an eyes on this one. I am afraid I don't have much to add as yet.

Cheers



posted on May, 3 2010 @ 01:32 PM
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reply to post by thebulldog
 


SOP-Standard Operating Procedure. It is a military, governmental, or police reference.

If you think about the opening post, I was trying to state that even after one owns something, we really do not own it. Serfs of the past were required to give a percentage of their production from their lands.

It has come full circle here in the states. Property rights was one of the founders basic principles. The ability to own property without the government taking it.

This has been phased out over the years.

Perpetual payments remove our rights as owners of property.

Profit from the sale of property was taxable, not just the very ownership of it.

Thanks for the reply.



posted on May, 3 2010 @ 02:02 PM
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reply to post by endisnighe
 




Well isn't that the SOP for the ruling class?


No... That is just the way it is.


Oh well, some eyes open, some remain closed.


Is this some free thinker mantra? It is becoming sort of cliche.



posted on May, 3 2010 @ 02:06 PM
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reply to post by zaiger
 


Yes, I understand your mantra of that is just the way it is.

It has happened many times in history where people just won't admit there is something wrong.

Here is what a reply was to this very attitude-

"If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude than the animating contest of freedom, go from us in peace. We seek not your counsel or your arms. Crouch down and lick the hand that feeds you; may your chains set lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that ye were our countrymen!" --Samuel Adams
LOVE THIS QUOTE



posted on May, 3 2010 @ 02:06 PM
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You are right.

There is more to dept by the way. Dept causes inflation. Every penny debt is extra money. Money which isn't represented by anything. fractional banking makes it even worse.

90 % of the money only has to be backed up with the remaining 10 % by the bank.
This becomes a problem if people do not pay or all go get their money at the same time. Cause it ain't there. The bank will go bankrupt. dept has grown to the amount that you have to keep getting people in dept or the system will collapse.



The problem is that they have made something that only represented the value of something into a product.
So money does no longer represents a value but it also influences it. Which can make a bread cost 5 dollars instead of 50 cents. The bread however didn't change and is still worth the same as a cup of butter as it was a 100 years ago. Now it's even worse cause money does not represents anything anymore.

Well... for the banks and governments it does. It represents you and me.
Nations get their loans because of an estimate it's citizens will bring up.
This is not getting us anything, accept for extra taxes. where governments pay the banks with.

The inflation is because of the value the money represents ( you and me )
Is getting less with every single penny what does not represents anything ( dept ) which means we have to make more money to represent the same value.
The product we buy with that money do not get cheaper. Eventually leading us into a situation where we can no longer keep up with the devaluation of the money what gets us in dept cause we need to pay anyway.
Making it even worse.

I hope this was understandable


Edit. Spelling


[edit on 5/3/2010 by Sinter Klaas]



posted on May, 3 2010 @ 02:11 PM
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reply to post by Sinter Klaas
 


Oooh, you just gave me the perfect analogy to what debt is.

Consider it the perfect example of the perpetual motion machine. Or an increasing harmonic.

Debt perpetuates debt, it increases in an ever increasing harmonic, feeding upon its own momentum.

I was bringing the perpetual debt and perpetual increase of our obligations into the taxation and debt agenda and never thought of this analogy.

I will add that as a edit to the OP. Excellent work Sinter Klaas!



posted on May, 3 2010 @ 03:09 PM
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reply to post by endisnighe
 


You're welcome.

Now lets hope others think so to. Cause I could be wrong here.



posted on May, 3 2010 @ 03:10 PM
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debt does not perpetuate debt. It is up to the person borrowing the money to see that they can pay back the money. If you take a loan out and you can't keep up with the payments that is your fault. If you take out a credit card to make a payment on that loan then yeah you drive yourself further into debt. Debt is a choice it is not forced upon you. To blame the banking system just takes away the personal responsibility of those that borrow the money.



posted on May, 3 2010 @ 03:21 PM
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reply to post by zaiger
 


I am not only talking about personal debt, I am also talking about institutional debt. City, State, Federal Government.

Cities are broke, so how do they deal, borrow. How do they pay for it, increased taxes.

On and on and on. Ad infinitum.

Debt payments on the US will be at the cost of 500 billion this year.

No big deal right, they just need to borrow more to pay the debt. Right?

And the boulder picks up more speed and material as it travels down hill.

No big deal, just borrow some more money.

You must not get it, the governments can no longer sustain this. It is inevitable. Watch the video I added to the OP.

Economics is a mathematical model. The one created for the world based on debt cannot be sustained. It has a built in harmonic that increases with each cycle. The more you try to balance the equation, the more it feeds off the other.

Max and mins used in business calculus. There are points where tax systems and the debt can no longer be balanced. How do you think the debt of this nation effects the economy. If the government uses up all the available debt to continue it's never ending appetite to control things, something must give. You cannot continue on the road we are on. You cannot tax people anymore without completely decimating the economy. You cannot continue to borrow to sustain the spending. You cannot continue in this fashion.

Debt as currency has reached its ultimate goal. It has destroyed itself by its very basic existence.

edit to add-look at it this way, you are a bank that can get an almost free loan from the Fed. You can buy up debt of the US government with a return of say 6%. As long as the inflation rate is below that 6% you get profit.

Why even bother loaning to anyone except the government. You will always get a return.

Of course this leads to monetizing the debt which is going on.

It will end with the country being owned by whom?



[edit on 5/3/2010 by endisnighe]



posted on May, 3 2010 @ 04:07 PM
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Zaiger does make an important point here.


Manipulative ideas can only become reality because people let it happen.

Like the mortgage crisis.
People will get a higher just barely affordable mortgage with a 5 or 10 years interest agreement.
The bank agreed to loan the money because the financial climate couldn't be any better. This caused a lot of mortgages to way to high. But the bonuses man were awesome.

The mortgage owners are fully responsible, they should have thought about the future eventualy interest will rise resulting in a monthly payment that could be several 100 dollars higher. ( depending on the height of the loan. One could lose a job. Less money. One could have opened another loan to pay for the washing machine where they lacked the money because all extras were flowing in the mortgage payments.

It save to say one should not buy a house when you can not back up the original nett. value.

However. People at the top of the banking system are everything but stupid. They knew this was going to happen eventualy.

The result was that people couldn't pay there mortgages anymore. They got evicted and their house was sold far below the price they bought it fore,Their bank got bankrupt, cause they didn't get your money.
The mortgage from the previous house owners didn't disappear along with the bank that loaned the money.

No they got bankrupted because they couldn't pay their own loans and dept anymore. This money still had your name on it but now there was another bank ? private company ? who you were forced to pay where their were now agreements with.
This could end up if you still had your house but the bank fell. You had to sell the house because the money had to be payed of immediately.
Under the price you bought it for leaving you with a big dept and at the mercy of those you had to pay.

Or when you already sold the house for less and so still had a big dept to pay. The mercy thing again.

Because the crises caused the value of the money go down but not lowered the cost of life's needing like food water and so on.

You had to pay of a dept to a bank probably not agreed in in your best interests. But you also had to pay more money for a product that didn't even got more expensive only the moneys value was less.

If people would have thought first and buy later instead buying and be in this mess.
All this crap could have been avoided or at least postponed.

Edit.
This typing is getting more difficult by the minute.


[edit on 5/3/2010 by Sinter Klaas]



posted on May, 3 2010 @ 04:16 PM
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reply to post by endisnighe
 


City and state debt are our personal responsibility too, we vote on whate the city and states does. If it can't afford to do something it has to raise money so it can via taxes.



posted on May, 3 2010 @ 04:24 PM
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reply to post by Sinter Klaas
 


Hey, I am not arguing about the stupidity of a lot of the people that got into this mess because of over leverage. Term for overextending in one particular direction. Could be many different things.

What I am arguing here is the basic tenet of fractional banking and using a fiat currency system that in no way is stable. It can be manipulated in too many ways and is also based on nothing but perception. Tie that in with the governments using the tax system as their very own get out of jail free card.

The governments and their banks manipulate the debt increasing or decreasing the apparent value of actual assets, creating bubbles of inflation and correlary market fluctuations. Then using the tax base to cover the problems they create. Then in the next cycle doing the opposite. Always behind or in front of the problem or the positive.

Causing further harmonic fluctuations in the market, in an ever increasing spiral of debt. Debt, tax, debt, tax, debt, tax. Until the end result is a total cluster#.

We are currently at a point where our national debt is above the national GDP. We have outstanding liabilities that are 10-12 times the GDP or 35 times the yearly tax revenue including all revenue streams of the government.

If this was any other entity, they would all be in prison for fraud, corruption and a list of felonies longer than this thread.

I can see everyone's point on individual debt, but the inherent point I am getting at is this, with the governments controlling the debt, our exposure to the problems of debt are two fold, through our own debt and the debt the government places on us from both inflation and the government's liabilities that are supposedly ours.

Effective tax rates in the range of 50-75% at this time are getting quite ridiculous. If they pass their crazy Cap and Tax scheme on top of the other 1000's of taxes, you will see effective tax rates in the neighborhood of 75-95% of income.

And that is rates for people earning from 30k-250k.

Really looking forward to the future, NOT.



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