Teapartiers: What an outrage!

Government is a social contract between the people and those who are put into a position of authority. The government should reflect the will of those people, speaking with one voice. The the responsiblity of that government is to enact laws to guide and protect the citizens. There are good laws and bad laws, howver, when the federal government fails to follow the rules and laws of the land, the exact same laws that everyone of its citizens are suppose to follow, then it goes down to the next level. The people of the state of Arizona were caught in a catch 22. They follow the federal laws and guidelines as perscribed by the federal government, and that same government tends to ignore or fail to enforce those laws. So you now have a problem where the people are for it and their representatives at the federal level are playing by another set of rules. That can not be allowed to continue, so the people of Arizona have taken matters into their own hands, and are doing what they believe is correct. They are listening to its citizens and looking out for the future of the state. The solution is for the federal government to follow the laws as was passed, and not ignore them, or else look for more of the borders states to start enacting more strict immigration laws and taking matters into their own hands.

I am actually conflicted on this issue. I really
cannot abide the lack of border enforcement
only because politicians want votes and business
wants cheap labor. It is starting to get bad here
in TN.

As far as showing an ID, being ex military it
is nothing I ever thought about. Now I am not
so sure. I am caucasion, my family has been here
since the 1600's; but I also have a dark complxion.
Could this also become another "slap in the face"
so to speak when it comes to Native Americans.

When it comes to the TP, I have zero belief in
what they stand for. Anyone that has Sarah Palin
invited to speak at their conventions does not have
anything in common with my beliefs. Also the only
TP people I see around here all act like inbred white
trash. And look like it too.

reply to post by VintageEnvy


Maybe people need to be mad...

I don't like to waste time writing ten posts trying to convey nuance only to find
my own nuance has been lost in translation or the other is not interested in subtlety.

This way there is no room to be diverted by picking apart a small string of words or
disparaging my persona. You see both are not options, because both are as low as it gets.

I have already made the majority of arguments anyone can make who oppose this measure, expressed myself fine and am glad that I have the freedom to do it my way.

Originally posted by Janky Red

Originally posted by Afterall

Originally posted by boondock-saint

Originally posted by Jenna
I'm appalled that they might actually demand to see an Americans 'papers' as it were to prove they're truly American and I don't see this going any other direction.

geez, u act like this is the gestapo or something.

Showing one's Driver's License or Social Security Card
or an approved State ID card would work to prove citizenship.
Plus, u have to do this very same thing in a traffic
stop anyway.

It doesn't have to be a birth certificate or a passport.
I think ur over-reacting a tad. A birth certificate or passport
would only be needed if they cannot provide any of the
other documents.

Maybe I am having trouble finding it or NY state does not care. Where on your driver's liscence does it confirm your citizenship?

Thats what micro chips and tattoos can be for

Now when I say tattoo it can be more like a small barcode in a visible place -

IF that is too hard to do just yet, make a walking license

Otherwise there may be a rise of skin lightening procedures, like the Michael Jackson clinic. I actually think they should go with skin darkening myself, but what evs.

OK, I get ya now. Sorry but my experience on ATS has made it hard for me to tell who is being funny, sarcastic, or just crazy. It is all here and looks alike many times. Sorry if I did not get it.

Originally posted by prionace glauca
I am tired of all the ILLEGAL immigrants no matter what country they might be from. They leeching away from my hard earned tax dollars that should be going to benefit me and my fellow LEGAL AMERICAN CITIZENS.

All i can say is amen to that!! I personally have known quite a few who leech away at what i pay for. I am a single dad working my butt off to make ends meet and i cant even get the government to hand me so much as a stick of gum for free. However my girlfriends illegal nanny she used to have, well 2 of them as a matter of fact, had social security cars that werent theirs as well as their kids getting free lunches at school, free medical care, free this free that it goes on and on. They dont pay taxes because they dont have too cause they are here illegally so they get to use up the resources and dont put anything back in. My GF used to think nothing of it until she herself got used by the last one. Now she is on the same side of the coin as i am. I used to complain that she hires them so thats helping to contribute to the problem.

I dont care to hear the argument either that i wouldnt want to live like they do or they have it so rough or they work for less money that i would etc etc. I have heard it all before. They come to this country illegally. Period! They take and dont put back in. Hell the first nanny she had went back home with so much money that she opened up her own resteraunt there. Now i hear she was doing so well there with her new found business that the drug cartells came and took it away from her. She gets to "own it" but they take all the profits. She wants to come back to this country but they wont let her. Would be bad for their bussiness.

Everything isnt so cut and dry and black and white when it comes to the issues of illegals in this country. I am from Texas and its a huge problem here. My son has a kid who goes to school with him that was causing him trouble after school in the apartments we live in. When i went to speak with the parents i found out he has only a mom no dad and she speaks only spanish and is illegal. He gets the benefits of a US education because she brought him here and we cannot deny him. He doesnt live in the apartment complex. They are lying so he can go to school and stay after school with his aunt until the mom gets off work. Yeah not that big of a deal but every illegal i have come across is finding ways of screwing the system because they have to operate around the law.

If they go to an ER they have to be treated and who pays for that. We do. All of us taxpayers do. I have really had it with ANYONE who takes out of the system and exploits holes in the laws to get something they dont need just because they can.

My ex wife is a prime example of that. She can work but she doesnt. She is ok with living on the bottom. Lives in a dumpy apartment with a crappy vehicle that barely runs. She gets to claim her other kids from her other relationships on taxes so she gets earned income from that. Hell her tax return checks are way more than mine and i work full time. She works when the mood hits her. They live worst than anything i could ever dream of. Roaches crawling on the kitchen utencils, laundry piled up in the hallway for weeks and of course good ol dog crap all over the place. Yep to see them is to think they are dirt poor right. Except for the fact they have cable and internet (which i cannot afford), Xbox 360 with lots of games, nintendo DS's (yes multiple DS's), laptop computer and ipods and just about every other thing i would love to have except my money goes to paying bills that you guys dont have to pay of mine cause i work. Otherwise she gets good ol WIC and foodstamps(lonestar card) and church donations which is funny as hell since she is WICCAN. She has no problem taking from the christians. They set her up with furniture for her bedroom and livingroom and lots of dishes. The woman is good at getting people to feel sorry for her and gets any and all handouts she can.

I on the other hand have way to much dignity to take from someone when i can work. I have heart disease and a pacemaker for all my troubles. I still get up everyday and go to work and put in my 12 hours and raise a son along side it. I have no sympathy at all for others who refuse to work or even try or take from this country but refuse to pay back. Yes i know there are those out there who cant work and they do need help and i feel its societys problem and responsibility to help those who cannot help themselves but it allows those who are lazy or just dropouts or illegal to take what they want also. The system sucks and anything that moves to helping it get better is great in my books.

Originally posted by nickoli
reply to post by Afterall

 

It is not unconstitutional for a law enforcement official to ask someone for their id in the course of an investigation. This law says that if the basic id requirements are not met said person may be detained untill proper id can be provided.This is a non issue to me, I always carry my id and I do not find offence in being asked to provide it should the situation warrent it.

I do not consider my walk to the corner store any reason for an investigation. Since I offer no probable cause, any search or detainment would indeed be against the constitution. Does this bill strictly apply to an ongoing investigation or does it propose investigating anyone that looks Mexican? Do you not see a difference?

I know alot about illegal immigrants and the problems they create and I applaud this law, in fact I may contact my representative and recommend that we follow Arizonas lead on this matter.

I live in NY state. I am pretty far from Mexico or any other country aside from the very white Canadadia! Guess what, white people are kind of rare in many parts of town here. We have people of all colors and races. This law subjects these AMERICAN CITIZENS to random search and detainment. How does that fix the illegal alien problem again?

How else is an officer of the law to know who they are dealing with without asking for id?

I have no problem with an officer asking for ID when DEALING with someone. I have a huge issue with them just deciding they can DEAL with me because I have a tan.

There will always be law and law enforcers in society get used to it or move out in the jungle somewhere.

I live among them just fine. Maybe you need to read this bill because your defense of it is actually a broad demonstration in lack of understanding it. Please read it and try again. I promise to be more respectful if you try harder to actually address the bill and not officers asking for ID when already dealing with someone or in the course of an investigation.

[edit on 4/20/10 by Afterall]

Originally posted by boondock-saint
reply to post by Jenna

 

oh nevermind

2nd line

please delete


[edit on 20-4-2010 by boondock-saint]

Why did you change your response. Originally it was to me explaining how a driver's license is proof of citisenzhip and now it is to Jenna and says nothing.

I have to ask then if that means you are retracting your statement that a License is proof of citizenship. I am just curious if I am missing something here.

p.s. Not looking for a fight, just not sure what I am missing. I have seen a similar claim made elsewhere and altering your post just makes me more curious.

[edit on 4/20/10 by Afterall]

Originally posted by Xtrozero

Originally posted by Jenna

There's a difference between showing an ID to get a job or enroll your kids in school, and being forced to prove citizenship because you look like you might be here illegally. There are plenty of people who were born here and are of hispanic decent that will end up being forced to prove they were all because of their facial features and what skin tone they have. That's just not right no matter how you look at it. The illegal immigrant situation does need to be handled, no doubt about it. But this isn't the way to do it.

But as it stands right now across America you do not need to show proof of citizenship to put your kids in school, employers cannot ask you if you are legal and SS cards are cardboard print, if you go to a hospital they can’t question you about these things either. So you can live, use our programs, work and never get caught.

You are also talking about two different events. I don’t think this approves racial profiling as part of it. Though I do agree that human nature will kick in and profiling will happen (like it does in everything else) especially in this case where over 90 percent of the illegals there are of one ethnic group.

This could change the very nature of probably cause... Never in recent modern history
has the naked appearance of a person be deemed a probably cause to detain them or question them. In my city the cops have an unspoken quota system, they are praised and perked for collars. What is to stop every place from becoming a checkpoint?
Roll into a bar, super market, movie theater... You really think about how the jews were rounded up in the late 30's, the process involved, street level it was the subjective
opinion of an official. I am not saying that brown people will be gassed, what I am saying is it resembles policies of a time and place I hope this country will NEVER
consider based upon that past. There are other options IMO

On a personal level;
I don't want my second and third generation Mexican, Chilean, SPANISH, etc friends being fearful of being free. I want to solve the boarder
issue and I think it begins and ends AT the boarder, walls fences, whichever, I cannot argue that. But as I said I will be damned if the people I grew up with in school are going to be harassed in any fashion from this government, beyond what we all have to endure.

Originally posted by Xtrozero
Though I do agree that human nature will kick in and profiling will happen (like it does in everything else) especially in this case where over 90 percent of the illegals there are of one ethnic group.

And that right there is the problem. It's not what this bill is intended to do, it's what it will do. American citizens will end up detained and forced to prove they aren't here illegally just because of how they look. It's unavoidable. Tensions are already running high over illegal immigration, the last thing that needs to happen is for American's to start getting detained because their skin is the right shade of tan for them to maybe possibly be here illegally. It's one giant can of worms waiting to happen and once it does it's not going to be pretty.

If they really want to start actually doing something about illegal immigrants, hit them where they work. Hold companies responsible if they hire illegals. Actually guard the darn border. If an illegal gets hauled in to jail for committing a crime, deport their criminal behinds. If they show up in the ERs, patch them up and deport them. There are so many things that the government, state and federal, could be doing to curb illegal immigration it's not even funny. There's no need to risk detaining citizens and making them prove their citizenship.

Originally posted by Afterall
Not all of us are or were in the military. Some of us are just people that were born here and feel we should have the right to walk to the store without having to carry a SS card, BC, and photo ID. Why should I have to for one and why wouldn't the anit-big government tea party defend my right to do so? I am an American. I should have the right to not have to carry proof of citizenship on me at all times.

Ok, so you want to go through life without ID. Why? Why is it a big deal? How does the state of Ariz handle this huge problem? Maybe the blame should go to the people who are causing it...

How do I know you are an American with any basis on which to question me? See how that kind of cancels itself out?

Just ask me and I'll show you plenty of IDs... My point is how can we identify illegals?

Why would you not check out the school you send your children to and make sure it is a safe place conducive to education instead of worrying how the other kids got there? If it is a good school, your child will learn and be safe.

You missed my point....how do we identify those kids that should not be in our schools because they are illegal aliens? Our schools are already maxed with the teacher to student ratio we do not need unwanted extra.

You can actually check to see if anyone you hire is legally allowed to WORK in the United States. You do not have to be a citizen to WORK in the United States, either. You just need to be legal and anyone that works in the US has to prove that. If you do not take the time to check out whether or not the person you hire to do something is legally allowed to do the job, then you are lazy.

The checking is extremely limited and easy to fake with the privacy issues choking it.

Asking cops to stop everyone with a tan and ask them for proof so that you do not have to check anything out for yourself is a waste of my tax dollars and police time.

Waste of your tax dollars...that is rich... in the light of what illegals cost you.

Is that the purpose of the bill? To force cops to do massive searches tracking down anyone who is brown, or does it allow cops to check ID where they see fit?

The only thing I have seen protecting illegals working here has been the BIG business that recruit them, hire them, house them, and lobby for your government to look the other way.

It always comes back to big business doesn't it? I don't agree that this is all big business though. OK how about this….
A team goes into a company and checks everyone working there and the company is fined as follows..

There are civil and criminal penalties for hiring illegal aliens. Sec. 274A of the Immigration and Nationality Act (INA) and 8 U.S.C. 1324a, makes it unlawful for any person knowingly to hire, recruit or refer for a fee any alien not authorized to work. An employer that violates these laws can face penalties of:

• $250 to $2,000 fine for each unauthorized individual;

• $2,000 to $5,000 for each employee if the employer has previously been in violation; or

• $3,000 to $10,000 for each individual if the employer was subject to more than one cease and desist order.
The employer could also be fined $100 to $1,000 for each individual “paperwork” violation.

The criminal penalties for a pattern and practice violation can be up to $3,000 for each unauthorized alien, imprisonment up to six months, or both.

BTW what does the Teapartiers have anything to do with something at the state level?

[edit on 20-4-2010 by Xtrozero]

Originally posted by Jenna

And that right there is the problem. It's not what this bill is intended to do, it's what it will do.

So cops carry guns...does that mean they shoot everyone? The "will" part is against the law too.

Originally posted by Jenna
If they really want to start actually doing something about illegal immigrants, hit them where they work. Hold companies responsible if they hire illegals. Actually guard the darn border. If an illegal gets hauled in to jail for committing a crime, deport their criminal behinds. If they show up in the ERs, patch them up and deport them. There are so many things that the government, state and federal, could be doing to curb illegal immigration it's not even funny. There's no need to risk detaining citizens and making them prove their citizenship.

I agree 100%, but it seems everyone sees this as wrong too, but even if we did this we are still talking 25 million we need to identfy in someway.

[edit on 20-4-2010 by Xtrozero]

Tea Partiers and other minorities, yes I said minorities, who participate understand that illegal immigration is an issue that is going unchecked.

I can't say it any better than a local business owner who airs his immigration reform messages," Come here LEGALLY, Learn the ENGLISH language: This is America, not where ever you came from,.......and if you have problem with what I said, THEN YOU ARE PART OF THE PROBLEM". -Joey Vento

Originally posted by Janky Red

This could change the very nature of probably cause... Never in recent modern history has the naked appearance of a person be deemed a probably cause to detain them or question them. In my city the cops have an unspoken quota system, they are praised and perked for collars. What is to stop every place from becoming a checkpoint?
Roll into a bar, super market, movie theater... You really think about how the jews were rounded up in the late 30's, the process involved, street level it was the subjective
opinion of an official. I am not saying that brown people will be gassed, what I am saying is it resembles policies of a time and place I hope this country will NEVER
consider based upon that past. There are other options IMO

I do agree that if this goes unchecked pandora box can be opened, but I also lean on the side that it is the right of any state to set forth their laws rules and policies. We must understand this was voted on at the state level by the people in that state.

There are a number of states I would never live in based on the govenment there and how it operates, but that doesn't mean I'm against their right to be that way at the state level.

[edit on 20-4-2010 by Xtrozero]

Well I doubt this bill gets passed,mainly because of this.

(Other provisions allow citizen lawsuits against government agencies that hinder enforcement of immigration laws, and make it illegal for people to hire illegal immigrants for day labor or knowingly transport them.)

Thats never going to pass I gaurentee it,too much power given to the people here, not going to happen so imo its a non issue untill it is a bill or law.

Now on to the crux of the matter,its a well known fact that if the fed didnt want illegal immigrants here there wouldnt be any,Ray Charles can see that. The corps demand cheap labor and the fed turns a blind eye only acting when they are forced to,I have direct evidence of that.

What we have here is a state saying to the fed "If you wont do your job we'll do it for you." I applaud them for it, after all they just had a citizen murdered by an illegal immigrant and they are rightly fed up,cant say as I blame them here. Any legal citizen of America should support Arizona in their effort to do what the fed wont,after all it could have been a member of your family murdered,bet you'd feel differently about it if it were.

This is a border state unless you live there you are uninformed as to what they're going through,keep in mind Mexico is basically a country at war and its spilling over into the border states. I cant blame Arizona here for trying to protect their citizens,I'd expect, no I'd demand the same from my state.


[edit on 4/20/10 by nickoli]

Real simple solutions is the problem of government. Pass a law that states that if a businessperson, hospital or government official that does not do their due diligence proving the person they either hire, treat or give government assistance is here legally, they get thrown in jail.

PROBLEM SOLVED!

Originally posted by Afterall

I live in NY state. I am pretty far from Mexico or any other country aside from the very white Canadadia! Guess what, white people are kind of rare in many parts of town here. We have people of all colors and races. This law subjects these AMERICAN CITIZENS to random search and detainment. How does that fix the illegal alien problem again?

No it doesn't...it is a law in the state of Ariz only.....

Why is everyone assuming it is some kind of Fed law and apply it to their state too, or suggest the Teapartiers should get involved in a state level action?

Originally posted by Xtrozero
So cops carry guns...does that mean they shoot everyone? The "will" part is against the law too.

That's a bit of a silly comparison, don't you think? Racial profiling happens all the time. Doesn't matter that it's against the law, people do it without even realizing it. A bill like this only leaves an opening for it to happen and be completely legal.

I agree 100%, but it seems everyone sees this as wrong too, but even if we did this we are still talking 25 million we need to identfy in someway.

Had the government been doing it's job to begin with, we wouldn't have 25 million illegal immigrants in the country to begin with. You make the penalties for hiring illegal immigrants harsh enough that no one is willing to risk it and there won't be an incentive for illegals to come here to begin with. It might not completely fix the situation but it would certainly help.

Originally posted by Xtrozero
Ok, so you want to go through life without ID. Why?

That is not only NOT what I said, it is not even close. I said I should be able to walk to the store without carrying proof of my citizenship.

If you have to just pretend I said something I never said in order to make your argument, you might want to rethink it.

Why is it a big deal? How does the state of Ariz handle this huge problem?

I do not live in Arizona but the big deal is that as an American citizen, I have the right to conduct legal business without being stopped and ordered to prove I belong here for no reason.

Maybe the blame should go to the people who are causing it...

Who would that be? The illegals? The bill we are discussing targets anyone and everyone. How many illegals can get over the border while the cops are asking the same Mexican American why he does not have his birth certificate on him while he is um...doing anything he might be doing?

Just ask me and I'll show you plenty of IDs...

My point is how can we identify illegals?

I think some people on this thread have already answered that quite well and not one solution lead to a scenario where I would be forced to prove my citizenship on a whim.

You missed my point....how do we identify those kids that should not be in our schools because they are illegal aliens?

You missed my point. There are already people who are tasked with that job. If you feel they are not doing it well enough, then do not send your kids to that school.

Our schools are already maxed with the teacher to student ratio we do not need unwanted extra.

So you think a 6 year old illegal immigrant can force a school to add him as a student? How about the school administration that is supposed to check vital stats? Around here, you need to prove that you belong in the school district to go to the school and people are routinely caught breaking that. The schools that do their jobs in routing out the problem are the ones I would send my kids to.

I am not sure how you feel this bill or anything else will give you the power to go into your kid's schools and question anyone. You are begging for a redundancy in the law instead of taking an active role and investigating the institution you charge with rearing your children.

Anything else you would like the government to do for you?

The checking is extremely limited and easy to fake with the privacy issues choking it.

Explain how stopping random people on the street and demanding those same documents will help.

Waste of your tax dollars...that is rich... in the light of what illegals cost you.

I live in Western RURAL New York. Show me some numbers. Show me just what illegals cost me compared to what I pay in useless taxes.

Is that the purpose of the bill? To force cops to do massive searches tracking down anyone who is brown, or does it allow cops to check ID where they see fit?

Read it yourself. The purpose of the bill is to give cops the right to just ask anyone, anywhere, doing anything to prove they are a citizen. That is great that you always have your birth certificate with you and all but I do not need mine to drive and do not feel any law should force me to just so that cops can stop and ask anytime they like.

Originally posted by Xtrozero
No it doesn't...it is a law in the state of Ariz only.....

Why is everyone assuming it is some kind of Fed law and apply it to their state too, or suggest the Teapartiers should get involved in a state level action?

Are citizens of Arizona not American citizens as well?

States have a tendency to enact similar laws. Once one does something, it's only a matter of time before others decide to follow suit. It may only affect Arizona for now, but how long before other states are contemplating similar legislation?

Originally posted by Xtrozero
It always comes back to big business doesn't it? I don't agree that this is all big business though. OK how about this….
A team goes into a company and checks everyone working there and the company is fined as follows..

There are civil and criminal penalties for hiring illegal aliens. Sec. 274A of the Immigration and Nationality Act (INA) and 8 U.S.C. 1324a, makes it unlawful for any person knowingly to hire, recruit or refer for a fee any alien not authorized to work. An employer that violates these laws can face penalties of:

• $250 to $2,000 fine for each unauthorized individual;

• $2,000 to $5,000 for each employee if the employer has previously been in violation; or

• $3,000 to $10,000 for each individual if the employer was subject to more than one cease and desist order.
The employer could also be fined $100 to $1,000 for each individual “paperwork” violation.

The criminal penalties for a pattern and practice violation can be up to $3,000 for each unauthorized alien, imprisonment up to six months, or both.

OK...and...?


BTW what does the Teapartiers have anything to do with something at the state level?

[edit on 20-4-2010 by Xtrozero]

I cannot speak for the OP but from what I understand they are all about freedom and liberty. They hate Hitler, Fascism, Communism, Socialism. They think that the government intrudes too far into our freedom. I believe the OP feels that following exactly in the footsteps of the Nazi SS might be an issue they should have a problem with.