The Utter Insanity of Pro-Choice

Child support system is broke as hell. Some fathers pay way to little and some pay way to much. Yes it is suppose to be dependent on what you make but it always doesnt work that way. A lot of times it seems the fathers that want to stick around and take responsibility and pay child support get screwed over more so than the guys who run and dont take the responsibility.

Its all a mixed up mess. I know guys who pay more for one kid than some guys pay for two kids and they make around the same.

Heres a good little example:

www.child-support-laws-state-by-state.com...



[edit on 20-4-2010 by ker2010]

I'd say it's insanity to not have a choice.

But that's just me.

Originally posted by Dark Ghost
Originally posted by hotbakedtater
Once again, here we bottom line it.

As it stands, no woman HAS to keep her legs closed, because abortion is AS IT STANDS TODAY, one of her responsible choices in her sex life.

OMG so i guess if you have a daughter when she gets old enough to learn about the birds n bees you just tell her dont worry about getting pregnant that can be fixed..

I guess this is her outlook.

[edit on 20-4-2010 by ker2010]

do none of you guys in here get it?

men are evil and trick women into getting pregnant. and since its the woman's body she gets full say. after all, it was a man who made her that way. it has nothing to do with the fact that the woman decided to open her legs and said yes when the man said he didn't have a condom.

a couple of hundred dollars a month?

if only that were the case. my friend has to pay 400$ a month because he makes $1500 a month. so because he makes a decent amount he has to pay more. you know why he has a child ladies? because the girl who was obsessed with him admitted to getting him passed out drunk so she could have his baby. his rent is $900/month (1bd 1 bath no less) and that's pretty cheap where i live. his utilities come out to 250-300 a month. guess where that leaves him? he can barely eat because he has to pay for some dumb b#%ch's child he didn't even want so IT can eat and be used as a tool in it's mother's sick delusional world.

in no way am i saying that the "i was drunk" card is an excuse. he didn't want a child nor did he even want to have sex with her (and all guys know, even if you are asleep or passed out drunk any stimulation of the penis can or will result in an erection capable of ejaculating). she swears she didn't use GHB (the date rape drug) yet some how it was found in his system and her own best friend even said she admitted to slipping it to him. as usual, the courts said "you were capable of making the baby, now you are capable of raising one" now he has to pay for it for another 15 years because some psycho stalker wanted his baby and last name. also, the judge completely disregarded her best friends testimony because she made up a little story after her friends testimony claiming they were seeing each other which is completely false.

now tell me this oh poor women who "have it so hard carrying a baby for 9 months", if the roles were reversed and my friend did this, we all know what would happen right? his ass would be thrown in jail, this idiot would have had an abortion and that would be that.

if it's the woman's body and she has 100% say in life or abortion, if she chooses life against the man's wishes, then she should live with that decision and forced to do it on her own. why should a man be penalized and have to pay for something he never wanted? the EXCUSE of him taking part in the act of making a baby makes him a responsible party in making sure the child is financed for life necessities. ridiculous. that excuse is countered when a man WANTS the baby by saying "it's my body so i get the final say" even though she decided to share her body with the man by conception.


it's completely hypocritical to suggest that a man has no say in the matter. it is only fair then if that a woman wants to birth the child and the man does not, she should be the one responsible for raising it and paying for it not the man, since after all, it's HER choice, the same way it was her choice to conceive.

i'm sick of women getting over on men because they feel that they were a VICTIM in spreading their legs, as if some evil man came along and seduced them and were tricked into getting pregnant. a woman can say no if a guy doesn't wear a condom, it's just as much a woman's fault as the man's in that scenario.



that was a bit more then i intended

Originally posted by Hardstepah


a couple of hundred dollars a month?

if only that were the case. my friend has to pay 400$ a month because he makes $1500 a month. so because he makes a decent amount he has to pay more. you know why he has a child ladies? because the girl who was obsessed with him admitted to getting him passed out drunk so she could have his baby. his rent is $900/month (1bd 1 bath no less) and that's pretty cheap where i live. his utilities come out to 250-300 a month. guess where that leaves him? he can barely eat because he has to pay for some dumb b#%ch's child he didn't even want so IT can eat and be used as a tool in it's mother's sick delusional world.

in no way am i saying that the "i was drunk" card is an excuse. he didn't want a child nor did he even want to have sex with her (and all guys know, even if you are asleep or passed out drunk any stimulation of the penis can or will result in an erection capable of ejaculating). she swears she didn't use GHB (the date rape drug) yet some how it was found in his system and her own best friend even said she admitted to slipping it to him. as usual, the courts said "you were capable of making the baby, now you are capable of raising one" now he has to pay for it for another 15 years because some psycho stalker wanted his baby and last name. also, the judge completely disregarded her best friends testimony because she made up a little story after her friends testimony claiming they were seeing each other which is completely false.

now tell me this oh poor women who "have it so hard carrying a baby for 9 months", if the roles were reversed and my friend did this, we all know what would happen right? his ass would be thrown in jail, this idiot would have had an abortion and that would be that.

if it's the woman's body and she has 100% say in life or abortion, if she chooses life against the man's wishes, then she should live with that decision and forced to do it on her own. why should a man be penalized and have to pay for something he never wanted? the EXCUSE of him taking part in the act of making a baby makes him a responsible party in making sure the child is financed for life necessities. ridiculous. that excuse is countered when a man WANTS the baby by saying "it's my body so i get the final say" even though she decided to share her body with the man by conception.


it's completely hypocritical to suggest that a man has no say in the matter. it is only fair then if that a woman wants to birth the child and the man does not, she should be the one responsible for raising it and paying for it not the man, since after all, it's HER choice, the same way it was her choice to conceive.

i'm sick of women getting over on men because they feel that they were a VICTIM in spreading their legs, as if some evil man came along and seduced them and were tricked into getting pregnant. a woman can say no if a guy doesn't wear a condom, it's just as much a woman's fault as the man's in that scenario.



that was a bit more then i intended

Yep the @#@## is put on a petastool.

Here is something that happened to one of my friends. Gets in a arguement with his wife. He decides to leave the situation. The best thing to do is get away right? Well she goes all crazy jumps in front of the door. So he gently picks here up and moves here to the side so he can get out and ride down the road to get away from it all. Guess what? Yep assault with no visible marks just her word againist his.

Also look at the number of female teachers who get a slap on the wrists when messing with a 13/yo boy compared to what would happen if the roles were reversed.

I just dont understand why everyone reguardless of being rich or poor, white or non white, male or female cant be treated completely equally in all scenarios. Guess this will never happen the way the world is so deal with it.

[edit on 20-4-2010 by ker2010]

reply to post by hotbakedtater


Well, lets say hypothetically I get you pregnant. Although I am the father of the child and that child is 50% me you can still do whatever the hell you want to. Where are the laws to give me a voice?

That is what I was talking about.

BTW, you still never answered my question. What is the difference between abortion and a teenager throwing her newborn in the dumpster to die?

Why when you kill a pregnant woman do you get charged with two murders? (i bet this would even apply to a woman standing in line at an abortion clinic)

Don't you see the hypocrisy in that? Could you kill your newborn baby? What's the difference? It doesn't know what life is yet, why not just throw it away?

I can't help but be appalled when people basically talk about an unborn child as if it was a tapeworm... It is not a tapeworm! So what if it isn't fully developed!

I mean do you people hate children or something?! Do you get some kind of sick pleasure out of all this?

---------------------

I know many people that are pro choice that say they could never do it themselves. I say to them that they have no right to be pro choice then.

If you can slit your newborn's throat and watch then bleed out.... But wait they aren't a parasite anymore right? Wrong, they still completely rely on you for survival.

How about Post birth abortions then? Why not go all the way with this infant holocaust?



Aww look at its little beating heart. But who cares cause it's not alive anyway. Just kill it!



This is not a human! BEGONE FROM ME MONSTER! KILLLLLLLLLL

Yeah lets see that mother kill the baby now, right after she has instantly fallen madly and deeply in love with it.

You know, fine, pro choice, but there should be a law that says you are required to look at your aborted baby after the deed is done. Oh yeah they should also have to listen to the heartbeat and watch an ultrasound first.

---

Ok now a bit lighter and more empathetic. Look at that baby. I mean really watch the video and look at it and then answer this question. Don't you think abortion is even a tad selfish?

[edit on 20-4-2010 by DaMod]

Here is another thing. If pro choice stands. WHY CANT WE COMMIT SUICIDE!???

Its my body if i wanna die why cant i shoot myself or jump off a skyscraper. ITS MY BODY!!! I have the same argument as a woman who wants to abort her child.

[edit on 20-4-2010 by ker2010]

reply to post by ker2010


No it's not your body if you want to kill yourself, only if you want to kill an innocent baby.

Get with the times man!!

reply to post by DaMod

Originally posted by DaMod
reply to post by ker2010

 

No it's not your body if you want to kill yourself, only if you want to kill an innocent baby.

Get with the times man!!

i think maybe you should take your own advice. it's 2010.

who are you to decide if a woman can have an abortion, and who makes you the judge on what murder of a fetus is?

would you object to the dr. telling you have a tapeworm and take medicine to kill it? that's killing a fully developed living organism.

here's the difference between abortion and a teenager tossing a newborn in the dumps.

THE BABY IS BORN. it is a fully developed human being, not a stage in development but an actual, fully developed human baby. a fetus at 12 weeks is not a fully developed organism. go back to westboro


one more thing. if it isn't my body to commit suicide, who's body is it if not mine?

Wow, just wow. Now I remember why I left ATS, THIS is why I left ATS. Not because of people exchanging opinions, not because of people giving valid arguments, or anything rational like that. I left because there are certain people who, when they run out of points or somebody rebuttals them, they resort to things like: people who advocate abortion should have been aborted, or you should go and kill yourself, or what you're doing is the equivalent to slitting a newborns throat, or watch this video of an unborn and a newborn and then tell me you'll kill them.

You people are the hypocrites. You should go out and protest any and all war, any and all violence, anything that causes death, including hunting and farming for food or skins, rather than advocating it for those who have different opinions than you. Did you ever give a thought to those poor, unwanted children out there already? Did you ever give a thought to those who have had to grow up knowing they were unwanted, or who were abused because of just that? Have you ever talked to anybody who's been in that situation? I'm willing to bet most of you who advocate so called pro-life don't. So long as the kids born, who cares what kind of life it's born into, right?

I'm gonna give the opposite challenge to all your cries of 'go and kill yourselves, commit infanticide!'. IF life for lifes sake means that much to you, go and adopt some of the unwanted children out there, give them a home, and get to know them, instead of worrying about the ones who aren't already born. Talk to people who were the result of unwanted pregnancies, ask them what their lives were like. It's a hell of a lot tougher than just staying in an isolated corner, or preaching from a protected religious viewpoint. Once all the current orphans in the world have been adopted, and are living happy, healthy lives, then come and preach to the pro-choicers.

Another thing, that a few people have pointed out, if you want to completely strip away all emotional and anecdotal thoughts about this kind of thing, which it seems really hard to do, but here goes. Strip it away right down to the bare minimum. Women don't have to have sex, nor do men. Women can control their sexual urges, so can men (even though some would have you believe they can't). If this were such a responsible world, then no-one would have sex with anyone until they'd picked a life partner, and if two people still got together anyway, then they should form a life partnership just to take care of the kid.

Here's the other, stripped down, non-emotional part of it that a few people have pointed out, biologically, a fetus IS a parasite. I know some Pro-Lifers don't like hearing this, because it destroys their 'aww, look at this, isn't it cute' argument. A fetus is a developing human being yes, but it's also, biologically speaking, a parasite to the host mother. It gets food, nutrients, oxygen and protection from the host, whereas mother gets strange cravings, sickness, moodswings, tiredness, her nutrients taken away from her, a continuously swelling belly and a pain everytime the fetus decides to have a mood swing of it's own. But hey, it's cute, so none of that matters, right?

Unless and until men can carry babies, then it's true, you won't ever be truly equal to women, as women will never be truly eual either. And if you pro-lifers really are so empathically concerned, then next time you come across someone who doesn't want a kid, YOU offer them a solution. Don't just drop your emotionally charged viewpoint on them and expect them to be joyful about it.

Well im definetly going to agree here, I think the father should have a say in this definetly. It is his child also, even if its the mother carrying this baby. Im pro choice but I still dont agree with abortion at all. Even though it is the womans body and her choice to decide, I think abortion should be something that is very well thought over and only a last resort, like if having the baby would pose health risks to the mother or baby, or if rape and incest were the case.

That being said, my cousin has had at least 5 abortions and shes only 23. Its sickening how some people can get pregnant and just be like "Well eh, I guess I dont feel like having a baby anymore." and just be able to go to the local clinic and abort it. Its amazing how quick one is to decide. If you are not ready for a baby, dont have sex, or use protection. The child shouldnt have to pay for the bad judgement the mother made.

But yes, Men should really have more of a say in this.

Originally posted by Jess_Undefined
Well im definetly going to agree here, I think the father should have a say in this definetly. It is his child also, even if its the mother carrying this baby. Im pro choice but I still dont agree with abortion at all. Even though it is the womans body and her choice to decide, I think abortion should be something that is very well thought over and only a last resort, like if having the baby would pose health risks to the mother or baby, or if rape and incest were the case.

That being said, my cousin has had at least 5 abortions and shes only 23. Its sickening how some people can get pregnant and just be like "Well eh, I guess I dont feel like having a baby anymore." and just be able to go to the local clinic and abort it. Its amazing how quick one is to decide. If you are not ready for a baby, dont have sex, or use protection. The child shouldnt have to pay for the bad judgement the mother made.

But yes, Men should really have more of a say in this.

Thank you, Jess_Undefined.

You seem a lot more empathetic towards the father's perspective on this issue than most other female posters in this thread. Your words are a breath of fresh air in a turbulent and foggy storm!

This is what most of us men want - the right to have a voice on this issue. We don't "crave" the power to decide what you must or not do with your own body, we want you to take more responsibility for your own actions and decisions and not use us as scapegoats when you make bad ones.

It's a shame this thread is turning into a Gender War, because members like Jess_Undefined show that ideals such as common sense, logic and respect can be shared between the genders when they are extended both ways.

[edit on 21/4/2010 by Dark Ghost]

No problem. I dont understand the gender war on this issue. Its as much the fathers child as it is the mothers child. So the fathers opinion on the issue should be taken into much regard. When you have a child its 50/50. Look at this way, if the mother wanted to keep the child, she would expect the man to give his 50 percent in raising it and taking care of it. So why does his opinion go out the window when abortion is taken into consideration?

reply to post by Jess_Undefined


Of course their opinion gets taken into consideration. The issue is not whether he gets a say but whether he can have final say over a grown woman's body.

reply to post by Monts


He may be just as responsible for the embryo being there at the moment of implantation, but his STAKE in the embryo being there is not equal.

There is zero risk to his life in carrying that child to term.

There is zero risk to his health.

He is not the one who could be prosecuted for his behavior when pregnant. (Endangering the fetus with drugs or alcohol, in some places, they are trying to prosecute for this) The pregnancy has zero necessary impact on his behavior.

He is not the one who may be endangering their career, by needing to take leave to give birth, or if there are complications, to carry the child to term.

Odds are, if the relationship breaks up, the mother is the one who will have to make the greatest investment in that child in terms of time, energy, and often, in money as well, as child support is not a guarantee.


Men often "abort" babies, by abandoning them and the woman carrying them during pregnancy. They just dont have to take full responsibility for what they are doing. They go on with their lives as if there never was a child, a pregnancy, while for a woman this is impossible. Even if she puts the child up for adoption, her body is altered forever having carried that child. Because this was such a wide spread trend in the "good old days" in modern times we have laws that try to enforce child support. They still dont work as well as they should, and there are still quite few men who manage to have children and not support them.

(And yes, I know there are women who do this too, but thats another rant)

While I agree it is a tad unfair that women have a window of opportunity to end the pregnancy after implantation, I would suggest that men be allowed the right to a legal abortion for the same period of time that women do. I would not suggest that a man be given the right to force the women to bear his child.

It is her body, and her life that is potentially at stake, much more so than his, and he should not have the right to force her to carry the child. He should, as many others have suggested, be more selective in whom he impregnates if this is a major concern of his. Men do actually have a say in who they get pregnant. We need to stop pretending men are helpless slaves to their penises. They have the same right women do to keep their legs closed and be more discriminating about whom they bump uglies with.

Of course in the end the man shouldnt have final say, in the end it is the womans body and she has to carry the baby. But I was pretty sure the OP asked about any say at all and not final say.

Its just important that the decision is fair for both parties. Yes men walk on there children all the time, but the same can be said for woman of course.

Originally posted by Jess_Undefined
Its just important that the decision is fair for both parties. Yes men walk on there children all the time, but the same can be said for woman of course.

Of course women do abandon their children, I acknowledged that in my earlier post as well. What I was bringing up was that when men do it prior to the child being born, it is a form of "abortion" for them. They, (the men) are continuing on as if no child existed, or was implanted at all, while the women are left holding the fetuses.


It would be nice if this decision could be "fair" for both parties. However if we are completely honest, and if we really take into account who pays what in terms of reproduction, children are always "unfair" to the mother. By that I mean only that in terms of costs, she is always the one who pays the highest price for them in natural, or physical terms.

That is what is often forgotten by those who advocate men having an "equal" say in whether or not a child is aborted. Men do not pay the same price for keeping the child, they do not assume the same risks, they do not invest the same amount of energy, or suffer to the same degree, and so the idea that they should have an equal say in whether or not to proceed with the pregnancy is inherently "unfair."

If and when the risks and costs of pregnancy could be borne equally, then and only then should men get an equal say in whether or not to continue it.



[edit on 21-4-2010 by Illusionsaregrander]

Originally posted by Jess_Undefined
Of course in the end the man shouldnt have final say, in the end it is the womans body and she has to carry the baby. But I was pretty sure the OP asked about any say at all and not final say.

We are now on page 15 and thats what the discussion had become.. it has been some time since he posted and I can't blame him for disapearing as this thread is kind of like groundhog day.

Some people have been equating men not having final say with men having no say at all when thats not what we've been saying at all.

reply to post by riley


Perhaps you can explain how you can have "some say" in an "either/or" scenario.

Its logically inconsistent.

Men already have "some say" in that they can (and do) plead their case to the mother. They can ask her to consider their feelings, promise to share the expense of the child, and to help ease the pregnancy. Rarely do these men who want "some say" approach the women with some legally binding documents outlining how they intend to share the burden and expense of the child, and/or compensate her for any physical harm she may suffer during the pregnancy or birth of the child. Men are not even exhausting the possibilities left open to them in this regard right now.

But in any event, men already have "some say." So perhaps you can explain what MORE say they could possibly have without moving into the area of "final say."

While I haven't read every response yet, I had to go ahead and throw my 2 cents in. First, I am pro-choice. My body, my decision. Second, I agree that a man should have a choice on the matter as well. If the decision goes to court and a man wants to raise the child and take full responsibility (and make the woman pay child support, of course) - well then I suppose he should be heard.

But I think what most people forget is that men are seldom involved in these decisions at all. I believe less abortions would take place if men would own up to the situation. If they'd say "Hey, this is going to be okay! I'm going to work and provide and offer support for the next 18+ years! We can do this together!" But as a friend once said, "Good fathers are kinda like Bigfoot. Every once in awhile you meet someone who says they've seen one - but it's definitely a rare occurrence."

I've known many women to have abortions (myself being one of them), and the number one reason was because they were in it alone. The guys threw up their hands and said "hey, do what ya gotta do" and walked away. The women were then faced with the reality of raising a child ALONE with little income and little support.

I am a mother now, and while I would die for my daughter, I also realize the full burden of responsibility in raising a child WELL. It's no cakewalk, even with BOTH parents involved. And I don't regret my decision to end the pregnancy, end the resentment, end the drama, or end the situation whatsoever.

And while I'd like to respect Pro-Lifers for their opinion, I'd feel much better if they would forgo having children of their own and instead start adopting some of the 500,000 unwanted children we have here in America. And please people - before you start slinging judgment around - seriously take a walk in someone else's shoes. Just saying.