The Utter Insanity of Pro-Choice

Originally posted by JohnBadger


Me and my fiance are in an agreement that we are not ready for a child and we have taken the necessary precautions to make sure that she wont get pregnant. If for some reason she were to end up pregnant she would get an abortion, I would go with her and support her as it was a decision we both made.

Don't count on it.

Many women think differently after becoming pregnant. Hormonal changes and all.

Hope you have a back-up plan.

Why can't there be a logical discussion about this subject, many subjects for that matter, where we remove anecdotal stories and circumstance to get to the fundamental issue. I will argue that the issue that needs to be discussed is personal responsibility. As individuals, it is our moral obligation to accept the results of our actions, whether those results are desired or not. Furthermore, as a society one would think we would to promote this idea of personal responsibillity for the betterment of everyone. However, this continually does not happen. This argument stops at this point. When a man and woman make the decision to have sex, they are accepting all possible outcomes that may arise. We cannot have a society based on the idea that individuals can perform any action with no regard to results of that action. As I asked earlier, what other decision/action in life is it morally and socially acceptable to erase/ignore/cover-up the result?

Originally posted by toshan11
Why can't there be a logical discussion about this subject, many subjects for that matter, where we remove anecdotal stories and circumstance to get to the fundamental issue. I will argue that the issue that needs to be discussed is personal responsibility. As individuals, it is our moral obligation to accept the results of our actions, whether those results are desired or not. Furthermore, as a society one would think we would to promote this idea of personal responsibility for the betterment of everyone. However, this continually does not happen. This argument stops at this point. When a man and woman make the decision to have sex, they are accepting all possible outcomes that may arise. We cannot have a society based on the idea that individuals can perform any action with no regard to results of that action. As I asked earlier, what other decision/action in life is it morally and socially acceptable to erase/ignore/cover-up the result?

We don't do personal responsibility. If so, the world would be a whole lot different place.

And it is a complicated conundrum. With a fetal "ownership" question argued (isn't possession 9/10ths of the law?) there is debate over when life begins.

On top of this there is responsibility to the planet and the sustainability of humanity as a whole. Loyalty to species should trump preferences of the person. But that is just me.

I think it is grossly irresponsible not to FIRST tackle this problem by actively promoting sex education and contraception. These more liberal views about sex could help us avoid unwanted pregnancy and so abortion.

I really resent that the same faction condemning abortion as a vile sin are the same ones hampering birth control as a vile sin. Like buggering alter boys is not. They can't get pregnant - a large part of their appeal to the Priesthood, I think. I digress....in light of all this...

Why not bring sex itself out of the dark ages, confessional booths and massage parlors? Put it on the table as a natural thing we desire and must learn how to manage.

We already embrace extremely "liberal" views on materialism, porn, liquor, gambling, gluttony and drugs.
In our face every day, like it or not.
Why NOT grow up and adopt a more adult, realistic and liberal stance and start to educate kids about sex?

If you are concerned about fetal life you should also be concerned about this. Unless you are blindly following orders.

Religion (in denial) still bans sex completely, so it is neither talked about in healthy mature way or even permitted anywhere but in secretive cloistered rooms with not always willing participants.
I don't think this is healthy. The mentality contributes largely to why we are grappling with the problem of unwanted pregnancy and abortion now.

Why make women pay with their bodies and their lives for the sad fact a dominant and influential segment of our social order condemns contraception and they say even family planning is a sin?

If you are fighting against abortion I should also see you every day in the streets carrying signs against any and all war.

No matter what your definition of life, it includes these victims as well.

Not saying any of it is the most desirable state of affairs but certainly these claims on Freedom and "rights" also inherently belong to the woman as it applies to the larger body - the country.

I don't see these marchers.
Until I do not all, but certainly the vast majority of pro lifers seem to me, sanctimonious hypocrites. Again just me.




[edit on 18-4-2010 by rusethorcain]

If a child is a result of an "accident" then the father should have no say in the matter. I'm a man and that's what I say. Everyone knows about contraception so there is no excuse. If I had my way the mother wouldn't have a right over the child either.

So, what if the father doesnt want to have a child and the mother does? should the father have some or equal right as to whether or not the woman gets an abortion? Could a father who wants an abortion be able to opt out of having to financially support the child if the woman in unwilling? This is a tough topic, although i am pro choice and pro abortion i think that sometimes when you make a mistake, you just have to deal with it. It is the womans body and she is the one who has to go through the whole ordeal of pregnancy, since pregnancy does have the possibility of harm, and even the possibility of death or even of having to give birth to a human being gaining that connection and have it possibly die or be born mentally disabled, pregnancy appears to greatly effect the livelihood of the mother much more than the father. I think the mother should have final say over whether or not abortion is the choice she would like to make.

i'm all for legalized abortion (as long as it's not used the same way a birth control pill is used). however i don't feel it's fair for the woman to be the one who calls the shots on if it lives or dies. this happened to my room mate a few months back and he was kind of upset (he got over it pretty quick for how upset he seemed to feel about it).

i hate the fact that the legal system (especially in california) tends to play "rescue the poor damsel in distress".

as the OP's comments suggested, a woman wants a baby and the father does not, we say: "that guy is a deadbeat" and crucify him if he doesn't have any part in the child's life. yet if the roles are reversed, the woman gets to say "it's my body i'll do what i want" and nobody could care even though the poor father wanted to raise that child. all the while we support and glorify (unless of course you're a religious zealot) how brave that the woman is.

this is complete BS and i do think when abortion is finally legal, we should have some sort of law where the man gets to have the child if he wants it and the mother does not, and the mother has to pay the child support.

after all, don't most women bitch and complain about how equal they are and how they should be treated equally? well that would be a way to show them just how equal they really are.

Originally posted by Hardstepah
this is complete BS and i do think when abortion is finally legal,

It's not legal where you are?

we should have some sort of law where the man gets to have the child if he wants it and the mother does not, and the mother has to pay the child support.

So what do you propose the government does if she refuses to have it? Lock her up for the duration of the pregnancy and force her to give birth?

[edit on 19-4-2010 by riley]

On Personal Responsibility and Abortion.

A woman who chooses abortion has just exercised personal responsibility.

Abortion is one of the choices available in personal responsibility.

reply to post by riley

post by Hardstepah

we should have some sort of law where the man gets to have the child if he wants it and the mother does not, and the mother has to pay the child support.

post by riley

So what do you propose the government does if she refuses to have it? Lock her up for the duration of the pregnancy and force her to give birth?

:bnghd:

Riley, I'm gonna need to borrow your helmet. My forehead is starting to hurt.

Your points are valid, but women choose to open their legs, just as men choose to spill their seed, as you put it.

With that being said, 50% of the genetics are from the Male, thus making him 50% owner or the father. The law may not see it that way, but the facts are he is, and sometime the law does see it that way but only after the child is born and the women is looking for child support.

Women should have the right to make a choice, but the man should have 50% say to, since she did consent to mutual procreation, because that is what people are doing when they have intercourse.

Men should have 50% legal say, unless the mother is in some kind of medical danger from having the child.

If the mother does not want the child, then the father should have first right of refusal before the mother decide to terminate. Again, if she doesn't want kids keep them legs closed or have tubes tied. Just as the man has the same responsibility to put one one or get snip if he doesn't want children.

It takes two to make a thing go right.

Originally posted by hotbakedtater
On Personal Responsibility and Abortion.

A woman who chooses abortion has just exercised personal responsibility.

Abortion is one of the choices available in personal responsibility.

[edit on 19-4-2010 by Realtruth]

Originally posted by Realtruth
Your points are valid, but women choose to open their legs, just as men choose to spill their seed, as you put it.

With that being said, 50% of the genetics are from the Male, thus making him 50% owner or father. The law may not see it that way, but the facts are he is.

He may be genetically 50% of the fetus but do you think that means he owns the woman as well?

He does not own the women, but they made a contract while joining together in pro-creation, so with that being said he is 50% the father and should have 50% of the say in what happens to the child.

Let's put the shoe on the other foot.

The women wants the child but the man doesn't, then she has the child and drags his butt into court for child support and wins.

But if the man wants the child and the women doesn't she goes in for an abortion, this is not right at all.

If people don't want babies, their are many options.

Don't have sex.
Get snipped. Male or Female.
Use protection or birth control knowing the risks attached.
Etc.. etc.....

The facts are when they come together it's a decision both make, unless she was raped or vice versa, then the father should have no say.

Originally posted by riley

Originally posted by Realtruth
Your points are valid, but women choose to open their legs, just as men choose to spill their seed, as you put it.

With that being said, 50% of the genetics are from the Male, thus making him 50% owner or father. The law may not see it that way, but the facts are he is.

He may be genetically 50% of the fetus but do you think that means he owns the woman as well?

[edit on 19-4-2010 by Realtruth]

reply to post by Realtruth

If the mother does not want the child, then the father should have first right of refusal before the mother decide to terminate.

Would anyone who advocates the right of the father to force his partner to give birth, answer this simple question which has been asked many times on this thread but was only answered once (by the OP):

Should a woman who wants an abortion against the wishes of the father be forcibly confined somewhere until she gives birth?
Yes or no.

Originally posted by hotbakedtater
On Personal Responsibility and Abortion.

A woman who chooses abortion has just exercised personal responsibility.

Abortion is one of the choices available in personal responsibility.

Then a teenager who dumps her baby in the trash to die should not be charged with a crime under that reasoning.

Do you think that is wrong? To throw a newborn into the trash to die? They aren't really a person anyway right? I mean they won't really grow up to be anything special right? So who cares right? I mean the girl wasn't ready to be a mom right? So she should have the right to throw her "baby" into a dumpster right? I mean it's the same thing as abortion right?

I mean that's all that really happens to an aborted baby. They get thrown in a trash can to rot (after the stem cells are harvested of course). If you don't believe me check any bio hazard waste bin behind any abortion clinic. You'll probably find the population of a small town in there. But who cares right? They aren't really people anyway.... They are simply something that the mother can discard on a whim so who cares right?

That's all abortion is right? Postemptive birth control. That kid had no right to survive because their mom would rather kill them then let them grow up to be an orphan (which any orphan will tell you is better than death). But who cares if the kid would have cured cancer, they are a cancer to the mom. The same mom who chose to open her legs and take a nice hefty load of semen in the vagina. Yet, no matter the age cannot accept the consequences. You're right of course. Women should be able to choose to throw their babies in dumpsters and discard them at a whim. Why stop there, why not make an abortion game show where the mothers come up with cool ways of killing their kid. THAT'LL BE A HIT!

P.S. This was not an attack on you personally, just your opinion of the subject at hand.

[edit on 19-4-2010 by DaMod]

Their is no simple answer, just what is right.

First, no one should be force into anything.

Second, the woman should do what is right since she was not forced into sex.

If she makes a decision for the father who wants the child, and still goes and terminates, then she has to live with that decision the rest of her life.

As will the father that could have been.

Originally posted by jeanvaljean
reply to post by Realtruth

 

If the mother does not want the child, then the father should have first right of refusal before the mother decide to terminate.

Would anyone who advocates the right of the father to force his partner to give birth, answer this simple question which has been asked many times on this thread but was only answered once (by the OP):

Should a woman who wants an abortion against the wishes of the father be forcibly confined somewhere until she gives birth?
Yes or no.

[edit on 19-4-2010 by Realtruth]

no she shouldn't be FORCED to confinement to give birth.
give me a break, "forced and confined to have a child"?

that just sounds like the exaggerations women are so good at doing

sex is a 2 way street, so why should the outcome be a 1 way street?

i'm so sick of all the laws made to "protect women", why is it ok for a woman to have a baby against the fathers wishes and make the father PAY for 18 years when if a man wants to have the child he doesn't have a choice in the matter? so if the woman doesn't want the child, give birth (or cesarean section) and give the father full custody.

if a man doesn't want the child he shouldn't have to pay some dumb girl who wanted to trap him or saw having a baby as a paycheck. if a woman doesn't want the child but the man does, he should have a right to have 50% of the say in it, the same way the woman had 50% in the say to spread em.

it's the same argument you women like to give when a father is against having the child: "you wanted to make the baby, so now you get to take the responsibility that comes with making a baby."

time for the "chauvinist male pig" comments.

if women want to be treated equally as men, then they should be treated the same way a man is treated in ALL aspects of life. i'm a feminist

reply to post by Hardstepah


I agree completely.. The man has no say in what happens to his DNA. Where are the laws to protect the fathers?

Don't worry, it is not you that will get the chauvinist pig comments. It is me.

2 posts up....

Originally posted by DaMod

Originally posted by hotbakedtater
On Personal Responsibility and Abortion.

A woman who chooses abortion has just exercised personal responsibility.

Abortion is one of the choices available in personal responsibility.

That's all abortion is right? Postemptive birth control. That kid had no right to survive because their mom would rather kill them then let them grow up to be an orphan (which any orphan will tell you is better than death). But who cares if the kid would have cured cancer, they are a cancer to the mom. The same mom who chose to open her legs and take a nice hefty load of semen in the vagina. Yet, no matter the age cannot accept the consequences. You're right of course. Women should be able to choose to throw their babies in dumpsters and discard them at a whim. Why stop there, why not make an abortion game show where the mothers come up with cool ways of killing their kid. THAT'LL BE A HIT![edit on 19-4-2010 by DaMod]

are you kidding me?

so lets enforce pro-life and jail women who were raped or teenagers who were sexually abused by their family members because they want to abort the non-living parasite within them. why stop there? why not make a reality TV show of rape victims who have to raise a child who will constantly remind that woman of the night a "man" beat and penetrated her forcefully, and document the constant depression and feelings of unwanted/unworthiness that human has for their entire life? THAT'LL BE A SMASH HIT!

How is confined and forced to give birth an exaggeration?

If the man wanted the child - and got his wish - what else would happen?

The 'confined' part might not happen but she would be forced to have the child against her wishes.

How is that an exaggeration?

According to some of the male responders here - these abortin' Feminazis are not only forcing you to do things against your will, they've got you by the proverbial Family Jewels in more ways than one.

Yet the woman/person who called it 'forced' is exaggerating?

Is that right?

Reproductive Freedom and Laws OFF the body is the logical way to go. They start legislating things - it could just as soon go the other way and people could be mandated to have abortions. Like in China.

Don't want to face the consequences? Be it a kid or a decision to make? Celibacy is the way to go.

reply to post by Hardstepah


You where once a parasite too remember? You are a human being right?

It is easy for women to forget that it was not the baby that raped them.