America: The Grim Truth

Originally posted by warequalsmurder

Originally posted by Clisen33
reply to post by warequalsmurder

 

If you're able to afford to travel the world like you say you do, why are you complaining? You obviously have at least a "decent" life to be able to do so, whether it's business related or not. If it is business trips, I'm sure your health care plan is also pretty damn good!

Yeah why am I complaining? I should be a fat complacent pig who hasn't a ounce of sympathy for what's happening to his countrymen. Make money and then become complacent right?

When out and the opportunity presents itself I spend as much time as possible telling Americans about what I've seen and what these new laws are going to be doing to them. But Apathy rules the day now. Your very response to my my statements further proves my point. You say in different words that I should be complacent. I translate that into being apathetic too.

And your sure I have a pretty damn good healthcare plan huh? When did you become a psychic? Because I'd advise you not to quit your day job if you do indeed have one at this point.

So you're saying that all of us Americans should go to these better countries in order to have a better quality of life, but yet not be complacent at the same time?

I stated, "if" it was business related. If your travels around the world are indeed business related, why wouldn't they offer any health care plans? With a respectable job like that, I would think they would. I mean come on, Walmart has decent health care plans, I've worked there.

Long time lurker, but I just had to join to respond to this thread.

I can't believe some of the comments on this thread, especially those that claim that you have to be "born into money" to succeed in the US. Any person with an average IQ can work hard in school, and go to college through scholarships, financial aid, and/or student loans. Heck, in my state (Georgia), all you have to do is have a 3.0 GPA and tuition for state college is free. There are so many opportunities for those willing to work for it. And I mean any person, regardless of race, gender, social class.

You don't have to take my word for it, just look at our president. He was the son of a black immigrant (not born into money), living on the streets, and now he is President of the United States. Why? Because he worked hard and took advantage of the opportunities he received. While I don't agree with many viewpoints of our president, his life story is admirable and reflects the "American Dream".

The US is not a society of classes, castes, or whatever you want to call it. The dirt poor can become successful. It is not like many parts of the world where you are born into your societal status and that is where you remain.

Oh yeah, just so I am clear: Are we Americans fat and lazy or uptight workaholics? Those viewpoints seem contradictory to me

it seems sad that many of the overt opinions on here proclaiming "hard work" as the salve for all, seem to be implying that all those now living in tent cities from california and vegas to florida, due to bankruptcy and foreclosure, must not have been working hard enough.

Furthermore, it is quite telling that many of those on here who post about not wanting to pay for others healthcare, seem to have no problem paying taxes for wars of conquest for oil, or paying for taxes for corporate subsidies. It would seem they dont realize...taxes are there to share the burden of those services which support societal stability, such as policing, DEFENSE (not conquest), health services, infrastructure, and education. While it would be nice not to pay taxes at all, we realize that this would be detrimental to society, however the sense of rugged individualism that you infer seems to imply that its ok to tax us for manly things such as war and profiteering, but not for things such as healthcare and education.

Sadly many of the pro american supporters on here miss one of the main points, which is that quality of life is NOT solely about the money you make. Many americans dont realize what they have lost in our nuclear family model. Large family and community consciousness has been totally destroyed, and THIS is the quality of life others are pointing to in foreign nations. As well as a small enough work time to spend time with family, and enough vacation to persue your own interests and growth, rather than all your time and energy being submitted for the good of whatever company you work for.

It is a fact that the corporate model, which pushes constant increase in profits, makes it so all businesses push for maximizing the amount of effort the worker puts in, while constantly shrinking his compensations.

reply to post by Equinox99


Wow thanks for posting this information. It was a real eye opener for me Hopefully many other people here will take it to heart and understand what we are in for.

another point i forgot to add....america has now become last in social mobility among the western industrialized nations, meaning that the american dream of being born poor but having the ability to rise to a higher social class....is much more likely to happen in any other western industrialized nation than it is to happen in america.

Further, the gap between the rich and the poor, often a marker for social inequality, has also become much larger in the US than in other western industrialized nations, and indeed, now more closely resembles that found in third world nations.

To add, while the GDP has doubled since 1970, the average workers buying power has actually decreased, meaning that all the profit and advance made in our country over the last 40 years has gone to a wealthy elite minority, while the average workers have gotten no benefit, which is compounded by the collapse of the pension system and the deterioration of social benefits and safety nets, and the skyrocketing increase in healthcare costs and other necessities.

I constantly wonder why people do not realize that there is a difference between being compassionate and incentivizing people to be dependent on govt and producers. You can be compassionate and think that people sometimes fall on tough times and need help, but also think that govt has no responsibility to provide for everyone. The problem with the US right now, and Europe in general, is we used to be a country of doers. A country where people did not look to govt for a handout or for support. . But instead to take care of themselves. A country where govt was limited and worked for the citizens not against them.

Something fundamentally has changed with the people in this country. An ever increasing percentage of the country has no intention of supporting themselves and constantly looks to govt for help and support. To this increasing group, its all about what they are entitled to, not about what they have earned or accomplished. Apathy is running rampant in this country at the moment. To me, the freedom to make of your life what you want, frees the human soul. But these institutionalized entitlement programs stifle the soul, they don't help it. If you are encouraged by govt policy to not strive to make the most of yourself in whatever methods you want, that it wrong. If you choose to not be a productive member of society and a lazy bum that is your choice, but you should not be rewarded with support and healthcare for this. But those that cannot help themselves (mental/physical issues) do deserve help. The problem is not with those that can't help themselves. The problem is with those that can help themselves, choose not to, decide to blame everyone besides themselves, and then feel entitled to support and help from govt and the doers in society. That is the real 'Grim' America. Not the one that the OP says is grim because we don't support every loser in society.

reply to post by Clisen33


So you live in a gated community?

Just because you can't see it from your yard, doesn't mean its not there and thats part of the problem.

As long as people are safe in their gated communities and pleasantly planned developments and mini-malls they think "Everything is great" when its not a far walk from ANYWHERE to find larger communities where people are stacked up and suffering for it. Or even hidden inside the gated walls people are suffering.

Lets look at what plagues these people in low income areas.

Crime, Drugs, Abuse, Rape, Disease, Ignorance(poor education) and large groups of people who are hopeless.

When you get to the rural area's this changes a bit, instead of people stacked up and broke, they are spread out and trying to keep their family land/home or make a new one. I realize this.... Its not the same everywhere, but where it's bad, ITS HORRIBLE.

Oh thats right... "I COMES BEFORE U." and as long as I'm ok, your ok.

But this kind of logic we both are sharing here can go round and round.
I see green lights and you see red, diff angle same traffic signal.

reply to post by johnny2127


To be honest whether the article is anti-american or not does not matter unless the author provides some basis for his opinion. He has provided nil, no graphs, no data, no economic surveys etc. It's just his opinion and nothing else. Now that can be discussed whether his opinion carries any merit or not. If the author would have provided some data and then stated his opinion on base of it I would have supported him, he has not so I dont support him.

Originally posted by poedxsoldiervet
reply to post by predator0187

 

.... Maybe I can move to another planet if we find one

He, you wish Even if technology would allow us to travel individually to other star systems, they would not let us?

WHY?

Because EVERYONE would leave and there would be no more slaves left.

In fact. If I would acquire a spacecraft, I would NOT tell anyone I am leaving, not send a SMS, email or photo - no coordinates - not even a direction. No signal I would send to Earth?

Because they would track me down and get me back or kill me - just to make sure no one else escapes from this PRISON PLANET (not advertising AJ - I don't like him)

The majority dont want things for free. We want our taxes to actually pay for something that benefits us. National healthcare and education would not be free, it would be a return on the massive amount of taxes we pay every year. Currently most of those taxes go to wars in other countries where we fight to secure their natural resources for our use, or to expand out influence....not something i think most americans would put before healthcare and education. Another large percentage of those taxes go to subsidizing multibillion dollar industries such as big oil, pharma, and banking, so those rich companies can grow even richer....again, not something i think your average american would put ahead of healthcare and education in his priorities.

As americans we pay an estimated 40% of our wages in taxes (thats for the working lower and middle class) after state and federal, social security, sales tax, property tax, vice tax, etc. We could at least get something more substantial in return. Other countries that pay around that range all have free healthcare and education. We dont even have our infrastructure maintained! Basically all we get for our taxes are corrupt police, a military industrial complex that sees to its own financial interest, and a system that circulates money from the bottom up.

reply to post by predator0187


The opportunity to succeed in the U.S is IMO a lot more open than in other countries.

So is failure.

There are fifty times more ways to live a good life, and just as many to ruin it.

America is a land of competition. Winners win big time, and losers lose big time.

Just how the world should be. Everyone can't be winners, and when you try to do that, you degrade the development of society itself.

reply to post by Loki Lyesmyth


No, I live on a farm with my mom and step dad that own 10 acres of land, and are in fact quite happy of their lifestyle.

I quit my job and relocated from a metropolitan city, even though I had opportunity with the company. You know why I did that? I did it because I did not want to do grunt work to move up and wanted to do something I love all while making more money.

With me quitting my job to get an education, I had to sacrifice being with my wife and daughter for 2 years. I did this because I know after I get my degree, my daughter will have everything she needs to apply herself to her future. This is what the American dream is. The ability to do what with your life whether its negative or possitive.


[edit on 7-4-2010 by Clisen33]

I think everyone should post their education level when responding to a post from now on. So many of the people on these boards have NO idea how to do real research, or how to tell what research is valid.

To anyone on either side of the argument who cite facts from their own lives as reasons for supporting their claim, please don't do that. It makes you look uneducated.

reply to post by rotorwing


I never, ever stated that anyone should pay for my health care.

I was told I should move from here as it is so bad and I stated reasons why it is nearly impossible for me to move. What does that have to do with anyone paying for my health care?

EDIT: I re-read you post and will answer the questions posed.

I had lost my car and job in Phoenix and I had no money to pay rent, so therefore I skipped out. Again, it was the choice of coming back home or being homeless and losing everything I owned. They had a chance to let me out of it, before it went into effect but they wouldn't so I had no options left.

My car is not on credit, it is a fifteen year old POS, paid for but still worthless as far as moving anywhere. It isn't in good enough shape to go anywhere and is so small there is no room for anything.

Not every persons situation is the same. A person living in North Carolina has, as the guy that I first responded to is, has probably a much cheaper rent/house payment than there is out here. The ground out there is naturally fertile, unlike what is here. Trust me, goo look at my thread about my gardening project. Without money, I can only do it half baked but I am doing the best I can with it. IT's not easy, I assure you.

Check out Craigslist for jobs in Las Vegas. Look at what is listed in the food and beverage fields. Dancers, promoters and jobs that I am not qualified for(I ain't a woman so dancing is out). There are so many people looking for jobs out here it's hard to even get a interview, let alone the job. I know, I have been here since last March and I have tried. Put out hundreds of resumes and I ended up with a crappy part-time job and those idiots laid me off.

I do not have a job now and I have to deal with stuff out of town for near a month(don't ask, it just is what it is) so I won't be able to do anything until I return.



[edit on 4/7/2010 by TheLoony]

Originally posted by johnnyg5646
I think everyone should post their education level when responding to a post from now on. So many of the people on these boards have NO idea how to do real research, or how to tell what research is valid.

To anyone on either side of the argument who cite facts from their own lives as reasons for supporting their claim, please don't do that. It makes you look uneducated.

Tell that to the author who wrote the article were debating over. That's very contradicting. Did he interview all of the U.S. citizens and proved that we are all living in poverty? How do you even research that? It's opinion.



[edit on 7-4-2010 by Clisen33]

This is hopeless.

I might as well quit school since I wont ever have a quality life like the rest of the world, right?

reply to post by Clisen33


Thats awesome, and congrat's!
I work for a major business that serves most of the state of Florida.
My job has me in areas from "big city" to "my nearest neighbor is 4 miles up the dirt road." I see all sorts of lifestyles around the state.

If you were never taught that these were your options, if you were never shown a better way, if you were trapped in your environment with (maybe) 1 parent would you have done the same/ turned out the same? (I know, who knows)

I grew up on a ranch and moved to the city, I made my way on my own step by step, I am also white, self educated (THANK GOD FOR ENCYCLOPEDIAS) and was taught by my elders how to learn and better myself. But the fact is we are not all so lucky as to have good parents and chances given to us to succeed.

Its up to you and I to take the next step and help those who are not so lucky. To remember, at any time things could have gone wrong for us and we could be someone that never had a chance or at least didn't know they had a chance.

What I think it comes down to is EDUCATION. And thats a huge FAIL in this nations. I would not be who or where I am had I not taken on myself to learn. But I had the chance to do so due to my environment. Its also up to PARENTS to be parents. A good teacher can teach all she wants, but if the kids are not getting support at home, they have no chance.

It sounds like you did a great job with yourself and planning, maybe you can do the same for a group of kids who need it.
I donate my time with kids locally through mentorship programs and being active in youth's lives in my family and extended family.

Its up to all of us to do this, to make this change, to wake up and realize we are each only as good as that crack-whore. We are each only as good as the starving babies. We are each others responsibility.
Once we do this, then all those other problems begin to fade away.
The "need" to get high fade, the "need" to rob, cheat and steal, fades.
Nearly all the social problems we face in America are just the symptoms not the disease.

I sorry mod's, I may have taken us off topic, or then again I think its all right on topic. This is a great thread, keep up the awesome thoughts and idea, but remember they are just thoughts and ideas until we/you take action to....

"Be the change you wish to see in the world."

Originally posted by Clisen33



So you're saying that all of us Americans should go to these better countries in order to have a better quality of life, but yet not be complacent at the same time?

I never said any such thing. You're getting sloppy friend. But please do feel free to try and prove that I said that all Americans should go to these better countries. That should be interesting.

Also, Walmart does indeed offer insurance like you claim. The catch, is that it is not for free and costs the employees just as much as if they had gone to a insurance company straight off the street. I know this because I have asked employees point blank about this who answered in hushed tones as they were under gag orders from their supervisers who barred them from talking about anything that could be construed as political or about unions. I have no reason to believe that they chose to lie to me.








[edit on 7-4-2010 by warequalsmurder]

reply to post by Loki Lyesmyth


I understand where you come form, I actually did grow up living with one parent and I'm doing quite well.

I just don't understand why there are people that are taking the topic out of proportion. America is not as bad as what people want it to be.

Originally posted by Clisen33
reply to post by Loki Lyesmyth

 

I understand where you come form, I actually did grow up living with one parent and I'm doing quite well.

I just don't understand why there are people that are taking the topic out of proportion. America is not as bad as what people want it to be.

Don't you get it? For them America has to be bad and evil, because then it means that whatever is happening in their lives is not their fault. Just a classic method of subconscious deflection so they aren't accountable for their actions or plight in life. Or then they can defend why they have chosen to not strive and compete in life....... they chalk it up to being above it all and want people to join them in those views to reinforce their excuses.