Sen. Bunning blocks unemployment benefits extension

Originally posted by David9176
reply to post by johnny2127

 

Look up the Laffer Curve if you don't know about it

Reaganomics.

You need to state no more.

That Laffer Curve sure is a laugh though!!! Especially the 3 trillion in deficits Reagan left with!!!

Which btw...was more than all former Presidents combined...just as Obama has done.



[edit on 1-3-2010 by David9176]

The Laffer Curve relates to the amount of tax revenue govt takes in based on tax policies. Not about govt spending. The Laffer Curve was proven correct in that tax revenue tripled with lower tax rates. Deficits were caused by huge defense spending, not the tax policies. Tax revenue was at an all time high under Reagan due to the economic expansion resulting from pro-business and low tax policies.

Laffer had nothing to do with spending my friend, don't co-mingle unrelated topics. Thats like saying that someone makes more money than they ever have before, but are in more debt than they ever were before, and then blaming it on the fact that they made so much more money. No, its because they spent so much money.

Originally posted by johnny2127

What I am saying is that these extensions specifically are amount going beyond the revenue used to pay them out in the first place.

I understand you are saying that. I am just waiting for you to actually prove that with any numbers supporting material or links.

Anyone can say anything...

And yes, you are correct, like nearly all forms of govt revenue, these funds are spent on other things first then are paid out of the general fund when needed.

Well...it shouldn't be. I have employees and i pay Federal Unemployment Tax and State Unemployment Insurance. I'd think if they go to the trouble to give the tax a name it would be directed toward that precise cause..otherwise, why bother? Just call it income tax.

Govt doesn't have money for most of its projects, hence the borrowing. We are getting in a very dangerous place of having so many people dependent on govt while at the same time no enacting policies that help solve the unemployment.

Okay...then wtf have I been paying unemployment insurance for all these years? I have been doing it for my employees with barely ever a claim...me and the rest of the USA...if the Fed is saying it doesn't have that money we have been giving them for decades, now that it's people actually need that insurance..then my question is ...what happened to the money?

Lastly the premise of Unemployment Payments is economic stimulas...it keeps folks alive and kicking as actual consumers and bridges the gaps in economic downturns where they can ramp back up quicker than if they are bankrupt. Unemployment payments = economic stimulas...this isn't even a partisan view, it is statistical fact and the reason why both parties support the program.

Originally posted by Janky Red

Originally posted by David9176
reply to post by Walkswithfish

 

n the Senate, Democrats are scheduled to begin consideration of $31 billion in corporate tax breaks and an extension of added benefits and health insurance for the unemployed through the end of the year

More GD corporate Tax cuts?

GEEZUS FLKJSAF:LKJSDF:LKJSDF:LKJSDF:LKJ.

What the hell for? TO create jobs? Give me a damn break.

This frickin ridiculous.

I know they didn't teach you this at your state school in mother Russia but corporations
create the jobs you all are biotching about. If they get taxs cuts they will spend that money on hiring more people and increasing wages for workers, thats how it works.
Notice how everytime they lower the corporate tax rate it increases everyones wages.
Its called a rising boat sinks all tides and it is the basis of liberty in America and it sure
works if you let it.

My question is why do you want people to make less money and stay unemployed?
I know why, cause you want to sit there drinking your diet coke watching Americas Top Model all day.

Well I got news for you, Freedom ain't free, we need to show courage, steadfast resolution, determination in the face of tyranny, born of fortitude in the ovens of liberty.
But what you are asking is to steal peoples money to give to other people.( who are usually lazy anyways I might add...

)

If people want to survive they are going to have to be the innovators of tomorrow, get off the couch's and create the prosperity of tomorrow which will be the economic engine
of freedom in the future.

Sarah Palin is up in the polls

Fox news has 150,000 new viewers this week
Glenn Beck makes more than Olbermam according to Forbes
sucks to be liberal

Someone is channeling Stephen Colbert...

reply to post by johnny2127

Your views raise costs to businesses and consumers.

So does 12 trillion dollar deficits.

You can cut taxes...but then you have to cut spending dramatically. Even if you cut them extremely low...it still doesn't protect American wages. It makes them worse..because even with that....WE STILL CANNOT COMPETE.

I could care less what economists state. Most of them didn't even predict the coming meltdown. THings were going to continue to boom remember?

There's no housing crisis.

Again...let's talk about that Laffer curb and 3 trillion in deficits....or how about the continued deterioration of the average American's standard of living.

How about when only one parent had to work to support their family?

HOnestly, do you think continuing the same exact policies that have led us to this point will actually make things better?

The top tax margin was higher under Reagan that it is under Obama. Where are all the jobs?

I don't see em. I see huge profits though..unfortunately...no increase in wages...nor jobs.

The money is gone because we let it happen. Without a strong tariff, no country can protect it's workers wages. Standard of living will continue to go down.

The onlly reason we were able to keep it up as long as we did was because of credit cards and debt. Prices finally got high enough...as wages couldnt keep up....and we crashed.

Yet Wallstreet is flying high while most of the rest of the country is fighting to stay afloat....yet...

NO JOBS.

reply to post by David9176

Yet Wallstreet is flying high while most of the rest of the country is fighting to stay afloat....yet... NO JOBS.

So take away peoples last source of income, the government .. and what will they have to loose?

You force change by taking away comforts, those lazy and unconcerned enough to not protest the government will surely protest now that their allowance from uncle sam has gone.

reply to post by johnny2127

Economic functioning
The Unemployment Insurance (UI) program helps counter economic fluctuations. When the economy grows, UI program revenue rises through increased tax revenues while UI program spending falls as fewer workers are unemployed. The effect of collecting more taxes than are spent dampens demand in the economy. This also creates a surplus of funds or a "cushion" of available funds for the UI program to draw upon during a recession. In a recession, UI tax revenue falls and UI program spending rises as more workers lose their jobs and receive UC benefits. The increased amount of UI payments to unemployed workers puts additional funds into the economy and dampens the effect of earnings losses.

en.wikipedia.org...

Again my question is simple...where is the money we have been giving the government?

Originally posted by maybereal11
reply to post by johnny2127

 

Economic functioning
The Unemployment Insurance (UI) program helps counter economic fluctuations. When the economy grows, UI program revenue rises through increased tax revenues while UI program spending falls as fewer workers are unemployed. The effect of collecting more taxes than are spent dampens demand in the economy. This also creates a surplus of funds or a "cushion" of available funds for the UI program to draw upon during a recession. In a recession, UI tax revenue falls and UI program spending rises as more workers lose their jobs and receive UC benefits. The increased amount of UI payments to unemployed workers puts additional funds into the economy and dampens the effect of earnings losses.

en.wikipedia.org...

Again my question is simple...where is the money we have been giving the government?

You have to accept the obvious: ALL the money has been stolen and its value socked away or redistributed by the governing class. YOU will not be getting anything back, other than the illusion promised by inflation. Any other considerations and arguments are immaterial, like discussing changes to your portfolio while being swallowed by a giant shark. It's just over, the money we've lived on for years is all borrowed and as such imaginary, has been for years and as such doesnt belong to us. We had a fun party for 30 yr, learned dependence and irresponsibility and bought so many lies because it was easier. THE MONEY IS GONE, LIFE IS FOR KEEPS, and to borrow more requires devaluing everyones money, because it doesnt belong to us any more, it isnt ours and using it as collateral results in inflation, which is the silent tax for borrowing and not producing. Unless you can pay it all back, 14 trillion divided by 300 million,, you are dead at that point that the lender demands payment. THe gov't stole it and gave it to its friends, and unless you are one of the officers of the court you are out of luck.

[edit on 1-3-2010 by thatredpill]

The truth is that the unemployment check is a crutch, and you're not supposed to use crutches indefinitely. Let me tell you what happens when unemployment benefits stop. You get off your lazy ass and get a job? Does that mean a job that you're over qualified for? Of course it does. Take it and quit crying about it. I don't care to hear about there not being jobs out there. Nothing motivates like necessity, and the morons in this country who think the Federal Government has an endless supply of money are in for a rude awakening. Be independent. Fend for yourselves. Refuse government handouts. Have some @^&!*#T pride!

Originally posted by maybereal11
reply to post by johnny2127

 

Economic functioning
The Unemployment Insurance (UI) program helps counter economic fluctuations. When the economy grows, UI program revenue rises through increased tax revenues while UI program spending falls as fewer workers are unemployed. The effect of collecting more taxes than are spent dampens demand in the economy. This also creates a surplus of funds or a "cushion" of available funds for the UI program to draw upon during a recession. In a recession, UI tax revenue falls and UI program spending rises as more workers lose their jobs and receive UC benefits. The increased amount of UI payments to unemployed workers puts additional funds into the economy and dampens the effect of earnings losses.

en.wikipedia.org...

Again my question is simple...where is the money we have been giving the government?

Its quite simple; the money has gone to pay for spending that an irresponsible govt has agreed to. Much as when you pay social security taxes it now goes into the general fund and pays for everything, ranging from military to the bailouts we all despise. I am not defending that in anyway whatsoever. The US govt has been spending out of control. Do to all the social services the govt keeps adding, we have $99 trillion in unfunded liabilities.
Source

Most people do not grasp how poorly the govt has run its finances. It has been made worse by the fact that slowly over generations, a higher percentage of people have become dependent on govt for things that before they were not. Constantly extended unemployment is another one of these things. Yes these people deserve some help. But for how long is it ok to keep paying them? 1 year? 2 years? 3 years? There is a point where is goes from charitable help and becomes institutionalized dependence.

Watch this video if you haven't for a better idea how royally our govt has misspent.

reply to post by johnny2127


I hear what you are saying, however...

Are you considering the actual effects of pulling the plug right now?

True government spending is out of control, then again the entire economy is out of control. I digress...

Ultimately these people are paying their bills with these funds, what prey tell will happen when 30 million people stop sending the checks to the masters? Simply put revenue will decrease which will compound the problem by create less jobs and more unemployed folks.

The above is a cold account what will happen, what will also happen is 30 million people
will be in real deal survival mode. I don't know if you have actually met a hungry person, but I assure you they do not act like modern day humans.

We will pay in some fashion, weather it be jobs, high crime, imprisonment, enforcement, public defenders, clerks, higher insurance premiums -

Cutting off 30,000,000 people now makes zero intellectual sense to me, it is very easy to figure those people will go to some place far removed from your existence. ITs not as if there is a time out button, lemme off the ride, stop the show, etc... We will see how interconnected we really are and provided this stands we will all see how good we have it today, since one in ten people are not out there looking for the next scrap.



I just don't think it is the right time to address this specific entitlement as I believe we will foot the bill anyhow.


[edit on 2-3-2010 by Janky Red]

Originally posted by Janky Red
reply to post by johnny2127

 

I hear what you are saying, however...

Are you considering the actual effects of pulling the plug right now?

True government spending is out of control, then again the entire economy is out of control. I digress...

Ultimately these people are paying their bills with these funds, what prey tell will happen when 30 million people stop sending the checks to the masters? Simply put revenue will decrease which will compound the problem by create less jobs and more unemployed folks.

The above is a cold account what will happen, what will also happen is 30 million people
will be in real deal survival mode. I don't know if you have actually met a hungry person, but I assure you they do not act like modern day humans.

We will pay in some fashion, weather it be jobs, high crime, imprisonment, enforcement, public defenders, clerks, higher insurance premiums -

Cutting off 30,000,000 people now makes zero intellectual sense to me, it is very easy to figure those people will go to some place far removed from your existence. ITs not as if there is a time out button, lemme off the ride, stop the show, etc... We will see how interconnected we really are and provided this stands we will all see how good we have it today, since one in ten people are not out there looking for the next scrap.



I just don't think it is the right time to address this specific entitlement as I believe we will foot the bill anyhow.


[edit on 2-3-2010 by Janky Red]

Oh in no way was I saying that I would cut everyone off right now. Not at all. I would reform the system. I would back having the system they use to verify that people are in fact looking for work and not turning it down completely overhauled. Also, I would back having those that accept govt help drug tested.

But in the end, there are very tough decisions to make and either way they will be very painful. Fact is, our country will not be able to provide as they are now, for continuing generations. Govt has enslaved many people with institutionalized dependence, and when that is removed, many will suffer. It is a very sad thing. But we have 2 choices; we slowly reform now and ween people off the govt nipple, or wait until the govt is sooo broke that people are forcibly removed from it. Neither way is pleasant, but the system will collapse under its own weight if we do no reform by choice.

reply to post by homesalesguy


if you ever break a leg, or ankle....
try walking without the crutch???

get paralyzed, and well, try moving without the wheelchair!!


sorry, but......

one, the single moms are stilll getting their hud, their food stamps, ect....and well, many of them haven't worked long enough to even qualify for unemployment in decades!!

as for the drug testing for whoever it was that asked me that a few pages ago.
let the unemployed stand in back of the single moms, the disabled, the drug addicts in the line, and let's test for alchohol also, and all those legal mind altering drugs that at least on me seem to make me more wacky than any drug could. and, well, just as soon as you conserviatives that think this is such a good idea agree to pay for the testing, ya sure, go ahead and run the drug test on all these people! like I said, I can always make enough money to at least reek out an existance anyways!
but, no, you, nor the gov't has and right to monitor what I put in my body....you's lost it a few years ago!

Like I have said mark my words the benefits are the only thing holding the nation together. And if you have a job kiss it goodbye. I fear this may be the beginning of the end of this great nation hopefully we ca rebuild what is left for our children. And to all of you that think this is no big deal you are very wrong think about. Why is this country with 20% of the people still moving along? It comes down to one thing unemployment benefits.


And you can argue the finer point of social welfare but it does not change the bottom line if they stop so does America and for that matter the world in enough time. It is truly that big of a issue. Bailing out the banks was minor in comparison to this. It is 100 times bigger.

Originally posted by dawnstar
reply to post by homesalesguy

 

if you ever break a leg, or ankle....
try walking without the crutch???

get paralyzed, and well, try moving without the wheelchair!!

What you are saying is correct........ for people when they are first receiving benefits. Although a high percentage of those that this legislation is specifically talking about (unemployed for 18months to 2 years), are not truly trying to find work or work now. A proper analogy for many of these people is:

Someone is in an accident
They end up in a wheel chair but could walk again with rehab
Instead they are incentivized to stay in the wheel chair
Some end up preferring to not walk again

[edit on 2-3-2010 by johnny2127]

Let these corporations enjoy themselves because it is all coming to an end for them all.
When the people are broke so will the system be broken, and we will see a revolution in this country, it will be we the people verse the corrupt government. The banking cartel started this mess and they are still looting the system and they are not going to stop until they have drained this country dry.

History is in the making in this generation in the United States we are definitely going to see an up rise in angry Americans. Americans are fed up with the corruption and no accountability.

reply to post by Subjective Truth


one of our elected representives from my area came home to explain why he didn't go for Obama's healthcare bill... I can't really remember enough as to the explanation he gave was, but he let it slip....
he gave the percentage of the healthcare industry's revenue that is from those gov't programs....schips, medicaid, medicare, ect..... it's over 50%!!!I can't imagine the state our healthcare industry would be in if they woke up one morning and found they had lost 50% of their revenue....
food stamps are around 25% of the population at least in some states.....
can the stores stand to lose that revenue?
then, there's the unemployment, of which, many, many homeowners are drawing now....can our economy stand another round of forclosures caused by the unemployed???
50% or more of the patients visiting our doctors, staying in our hospitals....ummm.....how many doctors, nurses, and such would end up on our umemployment lines if this were dropped.

but, ya notice, it's the unemployed that are being demonized here...we're lazy, ect..... we should go out and take whatever job we can find....even if it puts us on welfare...
so, one has to ask, why do they want us all on welfare?????
they blather on and on about these social safety nets, but they had full control of the house, the senate, and the white house....did they really do much to eliminate them?? heck no!! wonder why??
could it be, that they know that it's these programs that are enabling the big corporations to rake in huge profits, to offer them and their friends these really nice high salaries, while paying the piions next to nothing??? That they realize just how many of thier employees would be homeless, hungry, and sick without them> and well, homeless hungry, sick employees are more apt to demand higher wages than those that are passively sitting there drawing the rest of their needs from the taxpayer base!!!

I am really, REALLY getting sick and tired of hearing how those that are complaining about how they can't afford the healthcare system, how they can't stretch their paychecks far enough to house their family, pay the bills and still put food on the table for them to eat, how the unemployed are just too lazy to get up and out the door to find a job......losers, poor planners, and on and on!!
they weren't too lazy to go out there and work and pay taxes so the gov't had the money to give you business and educational grants and loans!! They weren't such losers that they couldn't get out there and work, pay social security....ON ALL THEIR INCOME...so you didn't have to worry about how your elderly mother was going to eat!! And, they weren't so unprepared that they couldn't chip in a few extra dollars so that your girlfriend could raise your kid without your financial assistance!!!!
some need to look at the whole picture here....
that welfare system has been feeding the business world a ton of "I don't care how much I make, I just have to make something so I can get my gov't benefits" cheap labor for over a decade now!!! leaving the business sector free of the worry of making sure that their employees have the means to survive so that they can devout their attention to more important things!!! like...more profit and higher salaries for the few that they find more favorable!!!

ya, ditch the working class!!! and we will all sit down and laugh while we watch the upper class try to do that which they have no idea how to do.....WORK!!! good luck on that one!

reply to post by johnny2127

and some....who could walk with the rehab are forced to just settle in and accept the wheelchair because others would prefer to keep their money in their pockets than to extend a little of that gov't aide to them so they can walk again!!!

Originally posted by dawnstar
reply to post by Subjective Truth

 

I am really, REALLY getting sick and tired of hearing how those that are complaining about how they can't afford the healthcare system, how they can't stretch their paychecks far enough to house their family, pay the bills and still put food on the table for them to eat, how the unemployed are just too lazy to get up and out the door to find a job......losers, poor planners, and on and on!!
they weren't too lazy to go out there and work and pay taxes so the gov't had the money to give you business and educational grants and loans!! They weren't such losers that they couldn't get out there and work, pay social security....ON ALL THEIR INCOME...so you didn't have to worry about how your elderly mother was going to eat!! And, they weren't so unprepared that they couldn't chip in a few extra dollars so that your girlfriend could raise your kid without your financial assistance!!!!

The poor don't pay income tax or social security tax. 50% of tax filers don't pay a single penny in income tax. Over 50% of US citizens don't pay a single cent of income tax or social security. If you make $40,000 or under a year you won't owe a penny in taxes. More if you are a married couple with kids. So the wealthy already are supporting the tax burden of these people, yet you act like they aren't doing enough. How much is enough? 60%, 70%, 80% don't pay taxes? That enough to make you feel ok? How about you stop counting other people's money, especially those supporting most of the nation, and worry about supporting yourself.

And by the way, social security was not meant to be what the elders lived on in retirement, it was meant to SUPPLEMENT retirement income. And for the absolute most unfortunate it was meant to provide something for them. But again, this is another program that has encouraged many to be irresponsible with saving and money. Many people do not save for retirement because they know they have social security. These people have been incentivized to become dependent on govt, not themselves.

Originally posted by dawnstar
reply to post by johnny2127

 

and some....who could walk with the rehab are forced to just settle in and accept the wheelchair because others would prefer to keep their money in their pockets than to extend a little of that gov't aide to them so they can walk again!!!

You realize that makes no sense right? They are forced to sit there because others would not support them? You joking? Its always a choice if you are able bodied and healthy. You may not like the work, but it is always out there. You may have to work multiple jobs. You may have to cut back on lifestyle. But there is always an option. When it comes down to it, no one is responsible for yourself besides you. Money, a lack of stress and free time are not your entitlement or right. You have to earn those things. Govt provides a short term safety net. Not over 2 years of free income. Thats flat out wrong.

Originally posted by Subjective Truth
Like I have said mark my words the benefits are the only thing holding the nation together. And if you have a job kiss it goodbye. I fear this may be the beginning of the end of this great nation hopefully we ca rebuild what is left for our children. And to all of you that think this is no big deal you are very wrong think about. Why is this country with 20% of the people still moving along? It comes down to one thing unemployment benefits.


And you can argue the finer point of social welfare but it does not change the bottom line if they stop so does America and for that matter the world in enough time. It is truly that big of a issue. Bailing out the banks was minor in comparison to this. It is 100 times bigger.

Anything you send in now is being stolen, those at the top know that it's all gonna crash, not land hard, not be bumpy landing, but a smoking hole crash and burn. That's why they dont listen and make no effort to pretend they're planning for anyones futute but their own.
You have two choices, send your money in to support someone else or keep it and support yourself. Pretty much you have to steal your money back from the gubmint becasue they need everything of value that you have, EVERYTHING. You'll be better off defaulting on the gubmint before the gubmint defaults on you. Regardless it's not likely you'll benefit directly or get away free and easy but if you are smart, maybe you can give your kids a break.
These are the only 2 choices, there is no alternative and time is about out, you have maybe one year left to collect what you can. One cannot live on fantasies when there are wolves bears and tigers at the doors..

[edit on 2-3-2010 by thatredpill]