The TRUE Evil: The Christian Agenda

Christianity is a huge business here in the United States. Christianity is very profitable and so, it flourishes.

It is also based on a faith in some supreme being and so, vulnerable to be taken over by another supreme being.

I used to be a Christian and I know from experience, it isn't very much fun and it is all based on fear.

I was invited to a Wiccan coven open Yule celebration a couple of years ago and have since become an accomplished Wiccan. I was that impressed with it that I now devote myself to it's practice. That is because, it actually works, it is a lot of fun, and it makes complete sense. You don't need faith, you see and touch it for yourself and know that it is real.

Wicca can blow Christianity right out of the water and take over the Catholic church and the Protestant mega-Churches. Christianity can not compete.

Some may lamely argue that Wicca is un-American, so, I must say that Betsy Ross sewed a flag with thirteen pentagrams in a circle with thirteen red and white stripes. At the first of May Beltane celebration we perform a fertility ritual called the maypole, with red and white long ribbons that we weave around a pole in a dance. George Washington liked the flag and it is pretty much still with us today.

We can change the world to Wicca, it would be a much better world too. Lets start with the USA, it is ripe for the picking.

Blessed Be

reply to post by Ferginator

What do you mean without IT their prophesies won't come true What is IT? you mean christianity? Listen prophecies are nothing to fear if you are referring to revaltions or something like that.

Christianity needs war,misery,death and violence for without them they cannot say - look here or look there these are the signs that jesus is coming.

If everyone on the planet agreed that from tomorrow morning we'd all get along, there would be no need of the jesus would there ?

People living in peace negate the "signs of the times" required for the return of jesus to kill all the bad guys.

Jesus said it himself

"Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword."

"

For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law

."

The last thing christians want is peace on earth.

the only visible cooperation that rules its own laws in public, and without any shame, is ...
owned lands within capital city`s, laws of its own, no prosecution.
taking up key positions in the world, based on that old system.

something we begin to see as an cristian agenda.

i call it a god, and its prophets, ruling the hell, underneath them.
nothing more.

look at that, what is written in stone.
(answers for infinity.)
nothing more, no less.

it is what it is.

from wikipedia:
[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/021ed79e8a20.jpg[/atsimg]

what is the meaning of god?

here is one way to look at it.
god
---

The bible in a nut shell. In the Old Testament you have the sciptures that testify about the Christ, to come to him to have life.
Then you have the New Testament. The ministry of Jesus is found in the books of Matthew, Mark, Luke and John. The Son of Man is the bread of life that came down from heaven. Jesus said "Do not work for food that spoils, but for food that endures to enternal life, which the Son of Man will give you." John 6:27.
Then you have the teachings of the Apostles found in the books of Acts to Revelations which occured when Christ was no longer in the world. Their teachings are actually false prophecies designed to take away the word of God of those who do not understand it, so that they may not believe and be saved.
Jesus said, "As long as it is day we must do the work of him who sent me. Night is coming, when no one can work. While I am in the world, I am the light of the world."

Originally posted by jc193232
The bible in a nut shell. In the Old Testament you have the sciptures that testify about the Christ, to come to him to have life.
Then you have the New Testament. The ministry of Jesus is found in the books of Matthew, Mark, Luke and John. The Son of Man is the bread of life that came down from heaven. Jesus said "Do not work for food that spoils, but for food that endures to enternal life, which the Son of Man will give you." John 6:27.
Then you have the teachings of the Apostles found in the books of Acts to Revelations which occured when Christ was no longer in the world. Their teachings are actually false prophecies designed to take away the word of God of those who do not understand it, so that they may not believe and be saved.
Jesus said, "As long as it is day we must do the work of him who sent me. Night is coming, when no one can work. While I am in the world, I am the light of the world."

god in the sense of man itself.
no supreme being ruling man.
just man ruling like a god.

words of old, strange to the flock.
letters to "learn" , words to live by.
an self made deluge, written in stone.

lets understand a star.
we focus on a point of space.
and marvel at the unexplained.

mark, lucas john, and all other try to explane something.
talks, written down, understood by its time.
now we are able to discuss and relate to each other in many way`s.

let me say that again,
now we are able to discuss and relate to each other in many way`s.
just to add that...

the one to hold it up is.
human.

reply to post by moocowman


Here is what I found,I hope that it helps.

www.youtube.com...

reply to post by mamabeth


Hell is a fairly evil inception of god. It translates to infinite punishment for finite transgressions. I don't think you can get more unjust and immoral than that.

reply to post by Welfhard


I didn't make the rules,I just obey them!
The choice is yours on what you will believe.
Moocow asked for this information,I gave it
to him.

reply to post by mamabeth

I didn't make the rules,I just obey them!

You don't know what they are, you just obey rules you happen to believe. If your god exists, he gave you a brain with developed reasoning faculties for a reason. I suggest you consider using them and not make any more arguments from authority.

[edit on 4-3-2010 by Welfhard]

Originally posted by Welfhard
reply to post by mamabeth

 

Hell is a fairly evil inception of god. It translates to infinite punishment for finite transgressions. I don't think you can get more unjust and immoral than that.

It actually really isn't about your finite actions, but your infinite choice. You see you have one life to live and God has given us the truth. He is creating for Himself a people to be in fellowship with forever. Think of it this way....If I loved a girl with all my heart and I wanted to marry her, but when I asked she said no, that's the end of it. I must let her go. We will never be together. Same thing is true with God. You have the choice and your actions merely reflect that choice. God won't drag you kicking and screaming into Heaven. He let's you choose.

reply to post by Welfhard
As a Christian who loves the structure learned in high school geometry, I like to think of it as all based on an axiom. You're a smart guy, I know that YOU already know what an axiom is, but not everyone reading this thread remembers. Anyway, the axiom is that Jesus was who he said he was. Anyone who has had a personal experience with Jesus believes this. If he was who he said he was, then all else follows from that, including believing in hell.

reply to post by trueperspective

Think of it this way.

But it's nothing like that, it's everlasting punishment for any amount of transgressions. You know what would be a moral alternative? Reincarnation. Making a soul live over an over until it gets things right. OR! Being that god is presumably omnipotent, just erase the souls. "You can't live up to my rules, then you don't need to exist in my reality."

Eternal suffering is hardly a just alternative to an easily doable oblivion.


reply to post by novacs4me

You're a smart guy, I know that YOU already know what an axiom

Apparently I'm smarter than you or you wouldn't have just made the logical fallacy of presuming your conclusion. The christian outlook is not an axiom, and even if it were true, you can't just presume it to be true when discussing with people who believe it's the opposite.

Anyone who has had a personal experience with Jesus believes this.

I was a fundamentalist christian for 19 years of my life. I'm not ignorant of such concepts. Needless to say, I find it unconvincing though it's obvious that you and your ilk have no trouble convincing yourselves that it is true.

If he was who he said he was, then all else follows from that, including believing in hell.

But you don't know what he said at all. If you were a biblical scholar, you'd know that the gospels that were hand picked by committee of men (and all the ones that didn't make it in the cannon yet were technically equally valid) were written having passed down as oral traditions at least 70 years or more after the events. No author of any Gospel actually witnessed first hand what happened (if anything happened at all), and even if they did, witness testimony is notoriously unreliable.

You have an ability I do not have. You can choose to believe this hearsay without any reliable evidence and I simply cannot - as much as I would love there to be a Jesus and a God and all that jazz, I do not have the ability to look at this book as anything but an evident piece of fiction.

Also you haven't even approached how hell isn't an immensely immoral place for god to send unfortunate mortals for ever and ever to suffer endlessly and needlessly. All you've done is made an apology for why you believe it unquestioningly anyway. I do not find such thoughtlessness to be particularly virtuous.

[edit on 4-3-2010 by Welfhard]

Originally posted by Welfhard
reply to post by trueperspective

 

Think of it this way.

But it's nothing like that, it's everlasting punishment for any amount of transgressions. You know what would be a moral alternative? Reincarnation. Making a soul live over an over until it gets things right. OR! Being that god is presumably omnipotent, just erase the souls. "You can't live up to my rules, then you don't need to exist in my reality."

Eternal suffering is hardly a just alternative to an easily doable oblivion.

 

reply to post by novacs4me

 

You're a smart guy, I know that YOU already know what an axiom

Apparently I'm smarter than you or you wouldn't have just made the logical fallacy of presuming your conclusion. The christian outlook is not an axiom, and even if it were true, you can't just presume it to be true when discussing with people who believe it's the opposite.

Anyone who has had a personal experience with Jesus believes this.

I was a fundamentalist christian for 19 years of my life. I'm not ignorant of such concepts. Needless to say, I find it unconvincing though it's obvious that you and your ilk have no trouble convincing yourselves that it is true.

If he was who he said he was, then all else follows from that, including believing in hell.

But you don't know what he said at all. If you were a biblical scholar, you'd know that the gospels that were hand picked by committee of men (and all the ones that didn't make it in the cannon yet were technically equally valid) were written having passed down as oral traditions at least 70 years or more after the events. No author of any Gospel actually witnessed first hand what happened (if anything happened at all), and even if they did, witness testimony is notoriously unreliable.

You have an ability I do not have. You can choose to believe this hearsay without any reliable evidence and I simply cannot - as much as I would love there to be a Jesus and a God and all that jazz, I do not have the ability to look at this book as anything but an evident piece of fiction.

Also you haven't even approached how hell isn't an immensely immoral place for god to send unfortunate mortals for ever and ever to suffer endlessly and needlessly. All you've done is made an apology for why you believe it unquestioningly anyway. I do not find such thoughtlessness to be particularly virtuous.

[edit on 4-3-2010 by Welfhard]

I'm not claiming to be as smart as you. I just wanted to establish, via Wikipedia, for whomever (other than you), what an axiom was. I certainly do not think anyone OTHER than a Christian believes the axiom. I don't think I presumed my conclusion, though. All I said was that CHRISTIANS believe Jesus is who he said he was. And I do know quite a lot about the history of the Bible. I contend that you start from an entirely different axiom than I do, and that has caused you to come to a different conclusion than I have, and to trust different sources which support YOUR conclusion, sources which I do not trust. Hell cannot be judged as moral or immoral. It EXISTS, and Christ overcame it.

I think that ATS is riddled with right wing libertarianslike Ron Paul. I look at how legitimate chances for sensible debate have been hijacked and can only come to that conclusion. Anyone that disagrees aught to look very carefully at some of the recent threads like the on e on Jews and DNA.

Perhaps these people think that their religion matters but it doesn't to me. A book is just a book .

reply to post by novacs4me

I contend that you start from an entirely different axiom than I do, and that has caused you to come to a different conclusion than I have, and to trust different sources which support YOUR conclusion, sources which I do not trust.

I did explain that I was a christian for 19 years. I started at the very same axiom you did. When things became complicated, convoluted and uncomfortable, I denied all axioms and tried to make the most honest conclusions.

As much as I hated my conclusions, I came to the realisation that the bible cannot be trusted as accurate. The authors never saw what they write about and so they conflict a little (but not much since the books that were chosen were chosen because they conformed better than any other combination). God wouldn't be so arbitrary in forming his books. If he wanted me to trust their authority, we would've had them written in say the orient where literacy was much more common and sources more reliable, not some backwards patch of desert.

In fact I cannot reason why god would even bother with a book or faith, it would be better to program the real axioms into our very physiology so the truth is 100% undeniable like in that Jim Carey movie Liar, Liar. I have to conclude that either god is a highly irrational being or god is a human invention. The latter is the simpler and more plausible explanation.

Hell cannot be judged as moral or immoral. It EXISTS, and Christ overcame it.

But there is no reason for hell to exist in the first place, no reason to make souls suffer for ever some arbitrary amount of sin. That is an insult to all things just. A justice system deals out punishments proportional to their crimes, we don't lock away criminals for life for even the slightest crime, but your god will do that and infinitely more.

[edit on 4-3-2010 by Welfhard]

Originally posted by Welfhard
reply to post by novacs4me

 

I contend that you start from an entirely different axiom than I do, and that has caused you to come to a different conclusion than I have, and to trust different sources which support YOUR conclusion, sources which I do not trust.

I did explain that I was a christian for 19 years. I started at the very same axiom you did. When things became complicated, convoluted and uncomfortable, I denied all axioms and tried to make the most honest conclusions.

As much as I hated my conclusions, I came to the realisation that the bible cannot be trusted as accurate. The authors never saw what they write about and so they conflict a little (but not much since the books that were chosen were chosen because they conformed better than any other combination). God wouldn't be so arbitrary in forming his books. If he wanted me to trust their authority, we would've had them written in say the orient where literacy was much more common and sources more reliable, not some backwards patch of desert.

Hell cannot be judged as moral or immoral. It EXISTS, and Christ overcame it.

But there is no reason for hell to exist in the first place, no reason to make souls suffer for ever some arbitrary amount of sin. That is an insult to all things just. A justice system deals out punishments proportional to their crimes, we don't lock away criminals for life for even the slightest crime, but your god will do that and infinitely more.

O.K. If you were a Christian, did you ask Jesus into your heart to be Lord of your life? Because reading the Bible and going to church doesn't make you a Christian, any more than going to McDonald's makes you a hamburger.

reply to post by novacs4me

O.K. If you were a Christian, did you ask Jesus into your heart to be Lord of your life?

You really think I didn't? You think I didn't 100, nay 1000 times? I said I was a Christian, and when I say that, I mean Christian as defined by Christians.

But it doesn't matter. I cannot be accused of biased because I don't want to believe what I feel obligated to. I've realised since deconverting that confirmation bias is too dangerous, so I'm always skeptical of things that happen to align with what I would like and do my best to see things fairly. I took it to the extreme and I was willing to question even the idea of god itself and now I'm unconvinced. I'm not suggesting that a god doesn't exist, it's just that I cannot find evidence to believe one does, nor can reason such a belief.

Although I cannot deny that, since adopting doubt inplace of faith, life has improved - and makes more coherent sense - since then 10fold.

[edit on 4-3-2010 by Welfhard]

Originally posted by Welfhard
reply to post by novacs4me

 

O.K. If you were a Christian, did you ask Jesus into your heart to be Lord of your life?

You really think I didn't? You think I didn't 100, nay 1000 times? I said I was a Christian, and when I say that, I mean Christian as defined by Christians.

Although I cannot deny that, since adopting doubt inplace of faith, life has improved - and makes more coherent sense - since then 10fold.

You must know that a lot of folks call themselves Christian, but think they have been grandfathered in because their parents or grandparents were Christians. Heck, I have some in my own family! But for my own understanding, I now know that you aren't one of them. So you accepted Christ, and now reject Christ. And you are 10 times happier than before. Why do you have such an angry avatar then? Is it because those of us who still love Jesus, still love Jesus?

reply to post by novacs4me

I now know that you aren't one of them. So you accepted Christ, and now reject Christ.

The idea of rejecting Jesus is silly to someone who doesn't believe in him. Do you reject Heracles? Or the Poseidon? A little patronising isn't it?

And you are 10 times happier than before.

I'm happier because I'm not repressed and I don't feel crushing guilt because of my nature. God makes us sick and commands us to be well and when we can't live up to those standards (so high that we can be convicted of thought crime), we're made to feel it is somehow our fault. When I was 14, I discovered I was bisexual but I also had the belief that same sex attraction was wrong. But being that it was my inbuilt nature, fighting such innate attributes is impossible and demoralising. There are other reasons but being able to enjoy relationships with girls and guys guiltlessly is like a breath of fresh air that never gets old.

Why do you have such an angry avatar then? Is it because those of us who still love Jesus, still love Jesus?

My avatar is what it is because I watched the movie Falling Down recently and made this avatar from the movie poster. It's one of my favourite movies. The "anti-theist" bit is because I think religion is a cancer to society. Starts wars, gets in the way of scientific progress, offers people easy answers to questions that cannot be humanly answered, vilifies human nature, convinces us that the universe metaphorically (and occasionally literally) revolves around us, etc..
These things are obvious to anyone with half the sense of a petunia.

[edit on 4-3-2010 by Welfhard]

Originally posted by Welfhard
reply to post by novacs4me

 

I now know that you aren't one of them. So you accepted Christ, and now reject Christ.

The idea of rejecting Jesus is silly to someone who doesn't believe in him. Do you reject Heracles? Or the Poseidon? A little patronising isn't it?

Sorry, I was using terminology that you no longer use. O.K. So you don't believe in Jesus the way I don't believe in Greek gods. I don't see how I was being patronizing. I guess if I don't talk like you, and don't think like you, that I am just a petunia-brain. I'm O.K. with that! "Blessed are you when men revile you and persecute you and utter all kinds of evil against you falsely on my account" Jesus says in Matthew 5:11.

[edit on 4-3-2010 by novacs4me]