My point wasn't that America shouldn't have reacted to 9/11 but there are worse events in the world that American has not reacted to in its capacitiy as 'the world police'. Describing the numbers of death and manner of death, "slitting throats" is not very appropirate in discussion because the event is too close at hand and thus makes people see a certain view point because of their emotions. (I quote the opinions in the early post-Nazi period as evidence)

I think that the attack on Afganistan was right for the war against terrorism but Iraq is not part of the war on terrorism (i except there is a debate on this, but surely a country should not be invaded because of terrorist connections if they aren't proven and are open to debate.)

For those with foresight, the future of our relatively insignificant species on this speck of dust lies in its southern hemisphere.

PLAN AHEA
D

Originally posted by puppetmaster


It's not wrong to play the world police, but in my opionion most USA people lack the knowledge of foreign countries. With that i mean knowledge about history, culture etc etc.
I live in Europe and the way I see it is that the USA government doesn't have respect for other countries their policies, laws and beliefs.

Right now and in the twentieth centurry, the USA only becomes involved if it's in their own benefit. Morally that will never become accepted, so groups of people who notices that the USA has a "second" agenda will turn against the USA.

As Jim Carrey would say.....Reeeeeeaaaaaally?

Prey tell me, so you do prefer the US to be more like the French government and Germany both whom abet genocide in the not so distant past...and be more like France in accepting radical Islam more and more, making every girl, even if she is not Muslim, in Muslim predominant cities wear a full burqa because if she doesn't she would be gang raped as she will be considered a whore...

Son, when the belief of some people takes the lives of innocent civilians, as in 9/11 and 3/11, who do not share the same belief as the extremists who committed such violent acts., it is the right of the government of the people attacked to find those responsible and root them out, more so if the policy of said extremists involves the destruction of the country if they don't accept the subjugation to Islam.

I was raised in Europe, and the problem with Europe is that it has become too open to socialist/communist ideals which bash the coalition, and mostly the US government for responding to such attacks with force.

If you want to end this, tell all your friends in Europe that agree with you to go in one big group to hug the Islamic extremists and see if they agree to some sort of truce. When, and if, your buddies and yourself, come back with all your heads still attached, and every Islamic extremist, including priests, have accepted not to conduct any other kind of terrorist act, ever, I am sure the coalition and the government of the US will not be so involved in foreign countries.

So, go ahead, go get your buddies and see if you can make a truce with every terrorist group, hug them for me too. BTW, i do hope you at least go there armed....

I'm sure you got plenty of responses like "no US shouldn't join" and "Sure it should" and all these corn-ball (well not really corn-ball just personal) reasons for why or why not.

That's because people feel something but don't understand it, it is actually their political affiliation.

The UK actually I think supports what I'm about to say as they are a shinning example of the differences.

The EU is spear-headed by several nations, France, Germany, Greece so forth, but it is France who has made the demands for the political ideology to dominate the EU....if you read their foolish vague moronic constitution you'll see it says numerous vague things such as "humanism" and so forth.

This is because France is liberal and places like England and USA are not, they are Conservative or "Classical-Liberal".

Of course you'll find liberals everywhere these days, but over all these two nations live as they were forged before the French Revolution sent a shock-wave of stupid ideas through-out the world.

And you don't believe they weren't stupid ideas? We all hear about how the French Revolution beheaded aristocracy...score one for the "third estate" eh? Most don't hear about how out of the some odd 50,000 killed, 45,000-48,000 were peasants...score one for the sane and glorious United States Revolution.

See, the difference between the EU and US especially are profound.

The US was formed out of the "enlightenment" the EU which is formed by France mainly, well, is influenced by a nation that said, "no SCREW ENLIGHTENMENT...We know best." And then proceeded to create a calendar that had year 0 as the beginning of the French Revolution.

Today most of us only "feel" these differences, but when you look at the ideological differences you begin to understand why the US and EU will never merge, in fact they will become enemies no doubt because the French ideology is conflicting with the older US ideology.

It's also interesting to note that the terms "right" and "left" are stupid because both of them referred to chambers of the French Assembly, where the conservatives (far more liberal than any Classical Liberal), sat on the right side of the room and the liberals (insane socialist centralist fanatics responsible for deaths all over during the French Revolution) sat on the left side.

Oh well whatever there's a bit of history. The EU will probably never amount to much more than a coalition of economies.

What you really should be wondering is how does the Bilderbergers fit into this?

Those exiled Aristocrats whom now, with a united economy of Europe, will be the only ones to benefit. It wouldn't surprise me if some form of heirarchy began to creep back into Europe along with birth-rights.

I see it as an American duty to defend the ideals of Liberty.
Isolationism is not only dangerous, but is also incredibly selfish.

Sure, isolate yourselves by all means. But if you do, you have no right to plunder the rest of the world's resources and influence world politics. American business interests have created a lot of problems in this world - it's only right that the problems should be solved by those who helped to create them.

Those who want isolationism want to have their cake and eat it. Not only that but they want everyone else's cake too.
If America became isolationist many of it's allies would turn against it. I for one would advocate the downfall of a country that would be putting nothing into the world and yet taking so much out.

Quote: Muahdib "Prey tell me, so you do prefer the US to be more like the French government and Germany both whom abet genocide in the not so distant past.."

Erm, governments change, maybe the Americans are oblivious to whats happened in the world, but ACTUALLY the Nazis are no longer in power! Its like saying no one should be like the US Government because they condoned slavery a hundred years ago.

The same goes for the French. They are no longer the French Revolutionary government. They have no king, so what, neither does the US. Well actually you could argue that the United States killed the real king of America since they murdered and drove the Native Americans out of their homes. Hmm?

The Americans did not police the 'Rwanda crisis'. Does that make them condone genocide?

I would agree with you that some of the French parties currently are quite right wing and verging on racist (i.e. the law banning religious symbols and so on) but it is WRONG to GENERALISE about the whole of Europe.

[Edited on 30-5-2004 by mrsteve]

Governments chance? It doesn't appear France wants to do so, at least concerning them helping in genocide, read my above post.

[Edited on 30-5-2004 by Muaddib]

I wrote my reply while you posted yours and so missed it. I have updated my post accordingly.

Originally posted by Muaddib
Prey tell me, so you do prefer the US to be more like the French government and Germany both whom abet genocide in the not so distant past...and be more like France in accepting radical Islam more and more, making every girl, even if she is not Muslim, in Muslim predominant cities wear a full burqa because if she doesn't she would be gang raped as she will be considered a whore...

Everybody is so ignorant and use left and right definitions (socialistic, communistic and nazi, democrats and republican) Every ideology has their good and bad things. Yet peace and freedom is all we want. With all these different ideologies and people with ego's to protect theirselves, war of some kind is inevitable.

And France isn't accepting radical Islam more and more, recently they have even accepted a law which forbids the use of religious clothes and signs on public schools. I personally think this is a stupid move, with countereffects.. because now religious people probably won't get educated at all or move to private sponsored schools where they get different teachings (perhaps even anti-western).

France recently tried to ban radical Imams, whichs seem to become a huge problem in all European countries. We all have laws, which protects every individual to belief what you want as long as they do not attack other person's freedom.
The USA on the other hand has created laws that allows them to do anything it wants, even if that means it would have to take their peace and freedom away.. The US have become a police state, where your police officers have been given more power that could lead to abuse of civilians. Your beloved country has 1 of 75 males in prison. And the war on drugs allows the CIA to become a profitable and independent corporation.

It's easy to make people frightened, point the finger and say they did it..
It's what Hitler did to gain power for his nazi ideology. Hitler was insane and brilliant at the same time... Unfortunately I haven't read his book Mein Kampf, it's banned over here. I would like to read it some time so I can use my imagination and place myself in his head.

I was raised in Europe, and the problem with Europe is that it has become too open to socialist/communist ideals which bash the coalition, and mostly the US government for responding to such attacks with force.

But yes pointing fingers to Germany and France governments and their mass genocide... So easy..
Your USA country, who are their forefathers... yes, the same kind of people who live here. And what did your forefathers do? Create new cultures and destroy others.. mass genocide on Native Americans, slavery on (racial) Africans. And in the 20th century it was the first and only country (so far) which has dropped nukes and do mass genocide on innocent people. It's not what you think you know and use your feelings to say that it was inevitable to let that happen to win the war. I am objectively watching that America has also done a good part on mass genocide.

Son, when the belief of some people takes the lives of innocent civilians, as in 9/11 and 3/11, who do not share the same belief as the extremists who committed such violent acts., it is the right of the government of the people attacked to find those responsible and root them out, more so if the policy of said extremists involves the destruction of the country if they don't accept the subjugation to Islam.

I am not your Son, I am not your child.. don't use your ego to think you know better than me. I am human with flesh and blood, just like you.. as I quote from the movie Fight Club "you're the same organic matter as everything else". But yes, now I could probably be a terrorist by saying this too right??
Yet I am not a religious man to ideologies, I am a person who thinks for himself and doesn't do anything to take away someone elses freedom of beliefs as you may believe what you want.
It seems to me that the anti Islamic propaganda machine from the USA is doing a good job. It reminds me of Hitler, with the attack on the Reichstag by communistic ideologic people, I can also point to the USA where the 911 and 311 are a reason to point to Islam. Yet we know what happened when you attack an ideolistic belief like communism --> a cold war.
But who knows what will happen when you point your finger to Islam?? There will always be people with crazy and brilliant ideas. Have you read the Koran yourself?? It has some wrong phrases yes, but also very good.. It's the same with christianity and every other belief or ideology.

If you want to end this, tell all your friends in Europe that agree with you to go in one big group to hug the Islamic extremists and see if they agree to some sort of truce. When, and if, your buddies and yourself, come back with all your heads still attached, and every Islamic extremist, including priests, have accepted not to conduct any other kind of terrorist act, ever, I am sure the coalition and the government of the US will not be so involved in foreign countries.

So, go ahead, go get your buddies and see if you can make a truce with every terrorist group, hug them for me too. BTW, i do hope you at least go there armed....

Belief what you want to believe..

Originally posted by IKnowNothing
the U.S. would never join the EU, the reason for it, the US is way too proud.

Too proud? Pride has little to do with it, as the members of the E.U. see the U.S. as competition. Even if the U.S. joined their club, it would still be looked down on and taken advantage of.

The US and UK should merge.

Although everyone has posted a lot of reasons why the US and the EU will never join into a larger union, I think you are overstating the differences.

Yes, currently here are vast political differences between the EU and US. The US currently has a very conservative administration and political leaning the EU is much more liberal but undoubtly the US will shift in the other direction in the years ahead. Yes, the US is a conservative country but it generally shifts from decade to decade as the political, economical, and security situations change. All countries shift from one extreme to the other year to year, decade to decade. Yes, the US will probably always be somewhat conservative and parts of the EU will always be somewhat liberal but not as a whole. Parts of the US are very liberal, California, Massachusettsto name a couple, and parts of the EU are very conservative. What holds the countries together and will bring the rest together is the moderate 80% of the populations. Opposing viewpoints are good things as they usually create healthy discussion.

Now, I belive it will not be governments that pull us together, it will be economics. Currencies, trade policies, and free trade zones are already pulling the world together and this trend will continue.

Don't you agree?

Here, here, Pupetmaster!

Yes, a one wolrd government is enivitable. Its just the next step in social organisation. It didn't take us long to go from tiribal societieis to state organised societies (using Binfords labels) and we shall soon be a singlle world state.

Originally posted by Freedom Fighter
No, the US should never join a federation such as the EU. Hell I want the United States to withdraw from the UN. Let someone else play the role of world police. I'm tired of being ridiculed for trying to help other people. Go back to isolationism and worry about our own problems. Let France be the watchdog, those surrender monkeys.

Before the US decides to withdraw from the puppet NWO establishment of the UN perhaps they can settle their outstanding debt to the organization to the tune of $900M. It seems they are the only member country who doesn't pay their bills. Despite this and the fact that they and Israel have vetoed almost every human rights resolution ever attempted to be passed. Do the research and you will see the atrocious record. As for the world police issue, it is not something asked for by nations of the world but that which is forced upon them by the US in fooling everyone that they are the good guys. Its typical Problem-Reaction-Solution.

Originally posted by Freedom Fighter
Well mr steve, if we did not get involved in Kosovo, genocide would have killed many of those people. So you think we were wrong for getting involved? Same for Iraq, and if we did not do it who would?

Don't kid yourself. The NATO obliteration of Yugoslavia was nothing more than a wargame exercise implemented to show that the NWO military force of NATO was still needed. More importantly however, it wasn't about the fairy tale genocide and mass exterminations that the media would have you believe. The state of Kosovo was attempting to gain independence from Yugoslavia but Milosovic wasn't interested. Sure there was some gun play and people most certainly died but nothing to the extent that the centrally controlled media and government would have you believe. And is it any different than what Russia is doing in Chechnya or what the Turks are doing to the Kurds? Why doesn't Uncle Sam bomb the s&%$ out of them? Yugoslavia was a target of timely convenience. It is strategically located geographically allowing the US to establish yet another permanent military base outside its borders in assisting with the encirclement of China. It was also about the battle between the two ruling economies on the planet. That of the Euro and that of the US dollar. The eastern baltic region was leaning more to the Euro and Wall Street couldn't have any of that. Iraq was also heading for the Euro........hmmm! Don't forget it all came down at the same time that shadowy figures of the previous US administration were getting their get out of jail free cards!

Originally posted by Muaddib
Really? i don't recall there being an economic gain for the US when we stopped what could have been bloodshed in Haiti this year....

Why would the US send any troops whatsoever to this country? Unless the multi-nationals, the IMF and the World Bank were having difficulties getting their ruling government to fall in line. Something like the majority of every Latin and South American country. Plus as an extra bonus - it is a stepping stone to the American's good friends down in Cuba. It wasn't simply about saving a few petty lives.

Originally posted by Freedom Fighter
Great find Muad!Weren't we trying to help somalians who were being starved to death by their own militia?

Come on now. By the time the US forces arrived in Somalia the famine was already over. Don't be fooled by a photo psy-op pushed on the American public showing a soldier handing out bags of genetically modified wheat! They only were sent there as the big 4 American oil companies had exploratory rights to that country and when the political situation became unstable the oil companies made their calls and 'army for hire at your service'. Nothing more - nothing less. Hence Hollywood's need to put out a rah rah USA movie such as Blackhawk Down. Propaganda at its best!

Originally posted by spacedoubt
We'll stay out of the EU.
Don't think we'd lower ourselves.
We like our Independence (remember that war?)

However,
Have an Earthquake?, Flood? Fires? Famine?
The US is there with food, doctors, water, blankets, you name it.

And the US makes a point of telling everybody don't they? What they don't tell the world is that the food they are donating is genetically modified and is not permitted for sale or human consumption in the first world. Created by our friendly Monsanto Inc. for experimentation on the unassuming starving populations. Blankets sure - but they most likely come from the sweat shops controlled by the US multi-natinals. And as for doctors and medicines it is all a carefully orchestrated scam implemented by the Rockefeller / IG Farben controlled pharmaceutical cartel and their puppet organization, the WHO, all for the purposes of implementing their de-population and Eugenics agenda. Vaccinations, vaccinations, vaccinations! Keep them from getting malaria today, help them get aids tomorrow!

Originally posted by Freedom Fighter
If we were to stop getting involved in other countries affairs altogether, what do you think the world would be like? Do we not have the right to fight terrorism, even if it means invading a country and ousting its ruler?

I'd like to hear your non-biased opinions if that can actually be done.

Sorry, I cannot be non-biased. The NWO gameplan got exactly what it needed when they coined the 'war on terror'. Now carte blanche for the US to go and do what they please, and hey.......they have a great excuse to do it!!! Falsely created hysteria..I mean terrorism! Again it's Problem-Reaction-Solution.

Originally posted by spacedoubt
mrsteve,

To crystalize it even further, if it's non-biased, it's not an opinion at all!

the US did not become the worlds anti terrorist police until it suited them (i.e. 9/11).

Mr. Steve, you mean after our planes were hijacked, Passenger throats were slit, 2 HUGE buildings destroyed, 1 damaged. 3000 citizens from many countries were burned, or crushed to death, Did we decide to do something about it? And people beat us up for getting in everyones business! Sounds like there is restraint as well?

Do you buy the US government claims about 9/11 hook, line and sinker?? Come on, there are far too many discrepancies and unanswered questions that remain for anyone in their right mind to believe what happened on that day was solely orchestrated by some dimwit Saudis. This subject could fill an entire message board. It was simply an event that was carefully planned by the 'secret government' to implement their worldwide domination mandate better known as the New World Order. Ask yourself...Who benefits from 9/11? Who benefits from the war on terrorism? Who benefits from the Patriot Acts? Who benefits? Not you or I.

Originally posted by Muaddib
...I was raised in Europe, and the problem with Europe is that it has become too open to socialist/communist ideals which bash the coalition, and mostly the US government for responding to such attacks with force...

The 'coalition'. I love that word. Why don't they refer to it as a bunch of ragtag nations that were blackmailed into sending a few soldiers to die in Iraq just so they could have their names on a t-shirt, just so everyone won't realize that it is simply the US that wants to move in and take over. Sure the UK followed suit but both they and the US are controlled by the same people. Not to mention their shared interest in arms deals, oil and that cozy little word....'imperialism' Coalition of the willing? Typical smoke and mirrors to fool the world into buying their BS.

Originally posted by Thomas Crowne
(...)
Too proud? Pride has little to do with it, as the members of the E.U. see the U.S. as competition.
(...)

Don't you think that US is seeing EU as a competitor instead?

Don't you think that small sountries of old Europe should join their forces together, and that instead of fighting? Don't you think that it has all the possible advantages to be thought of to join instead of differenciating? Don't you think the US (with all the respect we owe them for 1944-45 as an example) should be more humble? Don't you thing that, after all, we, in Europe, have centuries of history to rely on and to think about that you don't have in US? Don't you think that Europe also has been taking place all over the world to help outisde of its boundaries? (just as an example, because I'm Belgian, do you know that Belgium as a very small country has been giving away in the past 10 years over 4 billion euros as humanitarian help, and we don't expect a return?)

And finally, and over all, don't you all think that it is stupid anyway to debate, not to say fight, over such ridiculous things? Don't you think that we should all help each other? I know there are some people who don't deserve help, but anyway, those ones, we all agree that we don't help them.

Hey, I mean: peace please... Think about it. I help you now, maybe you'll help me tomorrow. If not, wtf: I'm glad I did it, and that's good, but I don't want you to depend on me because of that. Got it?

It's always the same old thing on these kinds of posts. You get the Americans saying "what did we do to deserve all this hatred towards us" and the rest of the world saying "open up your eyes and see what your government has done in your name in the last 50 years". I don't condone 9/11 and think it was tragic beyond belief. However, playing devils advocate, how many innocent lives lost did the Vietnam War cause, how many have died in Iraq for the two wars of liberation? Lot's, George Senior told the people to rise up against Saddam and we will support you. When they did, he didn't and Saddam slaughtered his opposers.

Now the current war, George Junior says we must remove Saddam from power and restore this country to peace. Oh and by the way we're going to turn Baghdad into one big prison and start arresting anyone we want and to top it off we know how much public nudity offends muslims so we're going to torture you and pose you naked in homosexual positions so we are better able to liberate you. Oh and by the way your new government will do what we tell it because we invested a lot of money here and need to make my friends and VP more wealthy.

My only suggestions to Americans is to start watching news and reading news from other countries. The government has put such a lid on the media in the States that I seriously doubt you have much freedom of press when politics are involved. Read "1984" by George Orwell. maybe he was a prophet?

Long live Canada and all it stands for

lets be honest here, the US is no saviour of the world, the US is only interested in what it can get by force. Iraq is a perfect example of what this is all about.

After the first invasion of Iraq, the attack was not pressed home to secure Bagdad and topple Saddam, though this would have been extremely easy at the time, why not?

Simply the US wanted to keep Saddam as a big stick to keep the other opec countries in line. Do exactly what the US wants and we will protect you from Saddam. Nearby countries like Arabia, Syria and Iran were shaking in their boots.

It all went well until Saddam went to the UN and had the oil for food deal changed so he would be paid in euros instead of US dollars. This set a dangerous precedent that other opec countries might follow. So the US started all this fake nonsense about the war on terrorism and weapons of mass destruction.

All the European countries except Spain were quite happy about the oil for euros deal, why should they be otherwise ?

The US is only acting out of its own narrow selfish interests. Policeman of the world, don't make me laugh. More like a Mafia protection racket. You do what we say and we protect you, otherwise someone gona burn down your joint and break your legs. Yeah, that is protection all right. With the US as a friend who needs enemies.

There were absolutely massive anti war demonstrations here in Australia, when the war in Iraq began, the politicians were having some very serious doubts and nearly backed out of it. The CIA bomb blast in Bali changed all that. The US sent a clear message, join us in the war on terror, or the CIA will change your mind with a few more bomb blasts in Australian cities. Lovely people Americans. And you wonder why we Australians now hate you so much.

Spain has abandoned America, Australia is about to, and probably Britain well eventually as well. It will be America at war with the rest of the world.

Truth justice and liberty or we will flatten you with cruise missiles then rape and torture you. You better be a friend of the US or those CIA terrorist bombs might just convince you to be part of the US war on terror.

The US citizens are the only people being fooled these days by all this stuff.

The next thing will probably be the invasion of Arabia to secure the oil from all those Muslims. America must have cheap gasoline for all those SUVs it is a moral right. All those Muslims have no right to the oil under their own land.

When Saddam goes on trial for murder torture and war crimes, Bush and Rumsfield should stand by his side with exactly the same charges. Why cannot Americans see the absolute hypocrisy in all this ?

People being held for years under the most harsh and barbaric conditions without formal charges or legal representation are the desperate acts of a criminal regime, not a just and transparent free democracy.

Saddam will die before he goes to trial it would be just too embarrassing otherwise.

God bless America the shining moral light of the world.