NEWS: French Genocide of Rwanda.

Muaddib,

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My understanding of this is that the U.S. could have stepped in and prevented much of the slaughter after the French completely mucked things up but choose not to - the decision coming from the highest levels of state and executive branch.

Your correct Phoenix. This was a display showing the further inactions of previous President Clinton:
Bystanders to Genocide

But besides his and the US's inactions, where is the defunct UN in all this? WHat about the rest of the world?
What were they doing to try to prevent it?
UN admits Rwanda genocide failure
The UN & Rwanda: Abandoned to Genocide?




seekerof

OMG!

It goes to show you I am 100% correct when I say, there are NO innocents.

Every nation is evil and has blood and deciet on thier hands.

Even the holy french.

So, no, dont try telling me America is the only "evil" on this planet, ebcause we arent. We are simply one evil amongst hundreds of nations.

The French were never in Rwanda, this is just American drivel to put down the French...

There was no genocide, it's a figment of your imagination, the French are good people, and would never do this...

It wasn't 800,000 people it was only just a few, trust me I know, this is just American propaganda...

The French never supplied these weapons, it was those dirty Americans, they caused this...

There was never a plane carrying Juvenal Habyarimana, Rwanda doesn't have planes, they don't even have pilots, this is a lie created by the dirty Americans...



I'm thinking about going on the road, do I sound like Bagdaad Bob ?

[Edited on 15-5-2004 by Yoda]

But seriously...

Yes there are a lot of countries that have skeletons in their closets...

France being one of them, I don't think they should be pointing fingers, when they live in glass houses...

If I lived in a glass house, I'd move in with Barry.

It's becoming common knowledge (a bit too late, perhaps) that France is no less the morass of greed, political self-serving, and cynical inattention to the needs of third-world nations than they try to make the U.S. and her allies out to be.

I don't believe Europe is trying to paint the United States as evil. If you criticize the US, it doesn't mean your unpatrotic or hate the US. Sometimes the US needs to be criticized. Why are people so insecure?

Originally posted by curme
I don't believe Europe is trying to paint the United States as evil. If you criticize the US, it doesn't mean your unpatrotic or hate the US. Sometimes the US needs to be criticized. Why are people so insecure?

as opposed to simply criticizing some of the actions done by a handful of people? or would that be too hard so we go the generalizing "the us this and the us that" remarks?



sorry, a handful of idiots acting out of line does not a nation make. criticize the actions or the people doing them, not the country they're from.

Paul Kagame...
We just have the point of view of a dictator that hate France...

Just imagine that Fidel Castro make an accusation on the US. You ll say "it has no value until we got proofs, witnesses, or declarations from international organizations"

It the same here

French involvement is not regulated nor restricted to the one article mentioned by the original author of this thread/topic:
Arming Genocide in Rwanda
An Active French Role in the 1994 Genocide in Rwanda
French arms, war and genocide in Rwanda
RAPE and Genocide IN RWANDA: The ICTR�s Akayesu Verdict
Specific Rwanda Links


Don't let one article be the cause of doubt concerning French and others duplicity in the genocides taking place, be they in the past or currently.



seekerof

[Edited on 16-5-2004 by Seekerof]

As a European, I was tempted to bite, and took the baite by taking a stance in response to this interesting, but unbalanced "news" post. No offence.

What do you know about Europe? Indeed, Europe has a bad record thru the ages but at least felt years of war at home and learned valuable lessons from it, as a collective. Many of the popular protest against the war before it started were fed by a general feeling that the real motives for war were wrong and unjust. That feeling hasn't left us, still nationals of ours are working with great honor in Iraq. The majority of Europeans supports their cause, not the American administration's one.

Africa is a victim of "western collective rape" for ages now. I as a European, feel deeply troubled about this.
France without any doubt, having deep historical roots in colonial Africa, had its fingers in many bad things that happned, including genocide, as have many other "civilised" nations, including prominently the United States. Recently under the Clinton administration very nasty things happned on the African continent with U.S. knowledge and to some extend involvement.

World Policy Institute / ATRC - Deadly Legacy: U.S. Arms to Africa and the Congo War

World Policy Institute / ATRC - Africa battered by U.S. `help' Rhetoric can't undo damage wrought by arms, war training

Washington Post (August 9, 1998) - Rwandan Raiders Playing With Fire

WorldNetDaily: U.S. role in Congo needs investigating

I think that the general reason for the exploitation of Africa can be found in its natural resources. As long as it stays unstable, western countries can "loot" as they please, or of course sell them more weapons and by doing so "steal" their last funds.

Originally posted by Muaddib
neither the French government or the German government, or their people are saying anything about the abet genocide they have committed in the not so distant past and also recently.

In my opinion the above is first degree history falsefication.

In moral sense:
*As if the German people as a whole have not confessed, and payed for their past collective sins and stupidities.

*What prohibits the German goverment from criticizing an illegal internationally unsanctioned war and its attrocities, waged for false goals and reasons, that costs many lives.

*What prohibits the German general population to speak out about the dangers and uselessness of war, when they know so damn well what it means. The same thing goes for many other European nations

Originally from CNN.com, posted by Muaddib
China has a history of flexing its military might ahead of Taiwan polls.

Ahead of the island's first presidential elections in 1996, China staged massive war games and military exercises across the Taiwan Strait, involving land, sea and air forces that staged mock beach invasions near Taiwanese-held islands close to the mainland.

China held its first ever joint naval exercises last year with separate drills with Pakistan and India off Shanghai.

Those exercises built on a fostering of contacts with other nations, including the United States.

France its co�peration with the Chinese in this exercise, brings more stability to the region instead of more tensions. It surely doesn't aid the Chinese in regaining control over Taiwan.

Originally posted by Muaddib
In my opinion they are just trying to deflect the blame from the attrocities they are still commiting and would try to use anything to make the world see the coalition as anti-humanitarian, as long as the world doesn't see what France and others are doing in plain sight.

In my opinion, your opinion stands like a house of cards in a hurricane.

Europeans are not trying to generally bash the U.S./coalition, nor try to divert attention from other events when they speak out against the war or the latest issues produced from it. European nations contribute to that coalition too, working hard to make a change in Iraq. Facing dangers just as U.S. soldiers do, but staying bound to The Genvea Convention, all the way up and down the chain of command. Maybe it's time for the U.S. to sign up to the new International Criminal Court, as true proof of integrity?

Americans should look deeper into the real meaning of patriotism. Taking their primary view from their time in uniform, towards keeping an eye on the people they chose to represent them, and if they do wrong, stand up to them with defiance. That is true patriotism.

Is this all the "news" you had to share with us, because it makes me think, who's really trying to bash or diverse here?


Hoaks,
European Voice


(Could you please show me the information source of France its role in supporting muslim extremists?)



[Edited on 16-5-2004 by Hoaks]

[Edited on 19-5-2004 by Hoaks]

. . . or German.

Oh, those brave, pacific French. Such measured humility. Those Germans too, laboring in Iraq, risking it every bit as much as the "trailer-trash" Americans, but not torturing anyone.

What pretensious nonsense. The french want their african empire back; the Germans want the empire they never had. (just watch, I'm about to get a sermon in how I could never understand European history, because Yanks don't have their depth, their . . . civilization.)

Both teams have contracted out the killing. They loved Clinton, who sent troops into Yugoslavia. Even helped create a brand new artificial state, Kosovo, so that the Serbs couldn't threaten their planned Pan-European oil pipeline through the Balkans.

The EC is infuriated w/ America because they consider Iraq to be THEIR oil. France, Russia and China were all illegally selling "food" for oil to Saddam, to try and prop up his regime. Lucky for them Abu Ghraib surfaced, or the Arab world would be wondering why three fifths of the UN security council was violating the UN's own resolutions. And resisting any inquiries into the deal.

What do I know about Europe? I was raised there, my roots are European and I went to school in Europe up to what in the United States is called high School.

As for the U.S making deals in the past that have bitten us in the butt, yes it has happened. But I have shown, and other members, that the U.S is not alone in this, yet most Europeans bash and blame the U.S for everything and forget the hand their own governments have played in the current affairs of the world.

About a useless war and there not being any reason for going to Iraq....well, it also shows a Russian link with Saddam and terrorism.

"Frontpage Magazine: Welcome to Frontpage Interview, Mr. Pacepa. Let�s begin. As a former Romanian spy chief who used to take direct orders from the Soviet KGB, you are obviously armed with a wealth of information. You have written about how the Soviets armed Hussein with WMDs, and also taught him how to eliminate any trace of them. Can you talk a bit about this and tell us its connection to the �missing WMDs� in Iraq today?


Pacepa: Contemporary political memory seems to be conveniently afflicted with some kind of Alzheimer's disease. Not long ago, every Western leader, starting with President Clinton, fumed against Saddam�s WMD. Now almost no one remembers that after General Hussein Kamel, Saddam�s son-in-law, defected to Jordan in 1995, he helped us find �more than one hundred metal trunks and boxes� containing documentation �dealing with all categories of weapons, including nuclear.� He also aided UNSCOM to fish out of the Tigris River high-grade missile components prohibited to Iraq. That was exactly what my old Soviet-made �S�rindar� plan stated he should do in case of emergency: destroy the weapons, hide the equipment, and preserve the documentation. No wonder Saddam hastened to lure Kamel back to Iraq, where three days later he was killed together with over 40 of his relatives in what the Baghdad official press described as a �spontaneous administration of tribal justice.� Once that was done, Saddam slammed the door shut to any UNSCOM inspection.


FP: So was any S�rindar plan activated?

Pacepa: Certainly. The minimal version of the S�rindar plan I made for Libya�s Gaddafi. Soon after I was granted political asylum in the US, Gaddafi staged a fire at the secret chemical weapons facility I knew about (the cellar underneath the Rabta chemical complex). To be sure the CIA satellites would notice that fire and cross that target off its list, he created a huge cloud of black smoke by burning truckloads of tires and painting scorch marks on the facility. That was written in the S�rindar plan. To be on the safe side, Gaddafi also built a second production facility, this time placed some 100 feet underground in the hollowed-out Tarhunah Mountain, south of Tripoli. That was not in the S�rindar plan.

FP: It is undeniable, therefore, that Saddam had WMDs, right?


Pacepa: In the early 1970s, the Kremlin established a �socialist division of labor� for persuading the governments of Iraq and Libya to join the terrorist war against the US. KGB chairman Yury Andropov (who would later become the leader of the Soviet Union), told me that either of those two countries could inflict more damage on the Americans than could the Red Brigades, the Baader-Meinhof group and all other terrorist organizations taken together. The governments of those Arab countries, Andropov explained, not only had inexhaustible financial resources (read: oil), but they also had huge intelligence services that were being run by �our razvedka advisers� and could extend their tentacles to every corner of the earth. There was one major danger, though: by raising terrorism to the state level we risked American reprisal. Washington would never dispatch its airplanes and rockets to exterminate the Baader-Meinhof, but it might well deploy them to destroy a terrorist state. We therefore were also tasked to provide those countries secretly with weapons of mass destruction, because Andropov concluded that the Yankees would never attack a country that could retaliate with such deadly weapons.


Libya was Romania�s main client in that socialist division of labor, because of Ceausescu�s close association with Colonel Muammar Gaddafi. Moscow kept Iraq. Andropov told me that, if our Iraq and Libyan experiment proved successful, the same strategy would be extended to Syria. Recently, Libya�s Gaddafi admitted to having WMD, and the CIA inspectors found them. Why should we believe that the almighty Soviet Union, which had proliferated WMD all over the world, was not able to do the same thing in Iraq? Every piece of armament Iraq had came from the former Soviet Union�from the Katyusha launchers to the T72 tanks, BMP-1 fighting vehicles and MiG fighter planes. In the spring of 2002, just a couple of weeks after Russia took its place at the NATO table, President Putin and his ex-KGB officers who are now running Russia concluded another $40 billion trade deal with Saddam Hussein�s tyrannical regime in Iraq. That was not for grain or beans�Russia has to import them from elsewhere."

Excerpts taken from.
www.frontpagemag.com...


The French and German government helped radical islamists against the non-mulim blacks.

"France and Germany Abet Genocide

By John Eibner and Charles Jacobs
Boston Globe | March 18, 2003

THE LANGUAGE of human rights flows smoothly from the lips of the leaders of France and Germany. But continuing Franco-German hegemony in Europe is bad news for human rights, especially for victims whose oppressors are European Union partners. Take, for example, the victims of the Sudanese government's genocidal jihad. In the words of U.S. Secretary of State Colin Powell, there is ''no greater tragedy on the face of the earth than the tragedy that is unfolding in the Sudan.''
For the past 20 years, the regime in Khartoum has bombed, starved, and enslaved black Southern Sudanese with impunity in an effort to subject them to Islamic rule. As a result, over two million black non-Muslims have perished. A further five million have been driven off their land.

Sudanese slaves -- mainly women and children -- are routinely beaten, raped, genitally mutilated, forced to convert to Islam and racially abused. The scale of this ''crime against humanity'' -- as slavery is identified in international law -- is enormous. Credible estimates of the number of Sudan's slaves range from tens of thousands to over 200,000. "

Excerpts taken from.
www.frontpagemag.com...


Perhaps you would like to hear it from a French what is happening in France...

"France is Not a Western Country Anymore

By Guy Milliere
FrontPageMagazine.com | March 31, 2003

French-bashing is everywhere in the American media. I am French, and I must say if Americans knew completely what's happening in France, the French-bashing would be far harsher.

Jacques Chirac has been a friend of Saddam Hussein for more than thirty years. He allowed the sale of nuclear facilities to Iraq that were destroyed just in time by Isra�l. He sold Iraq the planes that were been used to gas thousands of Kurds. And Saddam is not the only friend Chirac has. Chirac has never met a ruthless dictator he did not like. Worse, Chirac is unprincipled and greedy. It is common knowledge in France that he stole a lot of money when he was the mayor of Paris, and everyone knows that if he had not been re-elected in May 2002, he would be in jail now. To hear him speaking about morality or international law nauseates every decent Frenchman.

And Chirac is not the only politician of this stripe in France. These days, it is becoming hard to find a French politician ready to speak about human rights, freedom or democracy. All of them seem to have the same speechwriter or to belong to the same totalitarian political party; all of them are anti-American, anti-Israeli and "pacifists." They regard Western civilization as something filthy and abhorrent.

If you read the newspapers, it's the same. At times it seems the only difference between the Soviet Union twenty years ago and France today is that in Soviet Union you had only one Pravda, and in France you now have at least ten such propaganda outlets: Different titles, same content. Their party line is clear in reporting on the personalities found in the present Middle Eastern crisis. Saddam Hussein, the "President of Iraq"? Well, maybe he has been brutal, but you know, in "those" countries... George W. Bush? He�s a "moron" - a former alcoholic, who has become a crazy fanatic, in fact the most dangerous man on the face of earth. Ariel Sharon? A fascist who loves to kill Arabs. Arafat? A great freedom fighter. When an American general speaks, it is merely propaganda, but when Tariq Aziz pontificates, it is pure truth. Almost everyday you hear anti-Semitic remarks, to boot.

The anti-Semitism has created a threat to the physical safety for French Jews. Almost every week, some Jews get mugged, simply for being Jews. Almost nobody pays attention to it. When an anti-Semitic act is so disgusting it is impossible to hide it, journalists will speak of "confrontation between communities." When confronted with the reality that these "confrontations" are always Muslims attacking Jews, the editorial response: "Just because there has yet to be a single documented case of a Jew attacking a Muslim yet doesn't mean it will never happen. . . ."

And Jews are not the only victims of France's new identification with radical Islam. In many French cities with a growing radical Islamist population, no teenage girl can go out in the evening, at least not without a full burqa. If she does, it will mean that "she is for everybody": in short, a whore. In the same cities, every teenage girl - regardless of religion - has to wear the Muslim veil if she does not want to be harassed or killed. Almost every month, a young woman is mugged and raped in a suburb of a big city. Gang rape has become so frequent that a new word, used by the rapists themselves to define their hideous actions, is used by everybody: tournantes (revolving). To the rapists, the woman is nothing, a mere object to be thrown away after use. The people who speak about "revolving" seem to forget a human being is involved as the victim. Policemen do nothing. Every decent person knows the problem is Islam, but no one dares to say it. It could be dangerous. The streets are not safe."

Excerpts taken from.
www.frontpagemag.com...

As for the French helping show some muscle with the Chinese in view of the Taiwanese elections, the French "were jointly exercising with the Chinese, not with the taiwanese government." The Chinese were trying to bring some fear into the Taiwanese, like they have done in the past, and the French went happily along..

Now is time for you to show that "Those exercises built on a fostering of contacts with other nations, including the United States" as you mentioned. I wan't to see the involvement of the U.S with France and the Chinese show of arms against the Taiwanese..... reliable links please... I don't even think you know that Taiwan is an ally of the U.S....

So where is the proof of the U.S involvement with France and China in their latest show of strength against Taiwan?

No takers from those blaming the U.S administration of being tyrants?

What about what happened in Haiti? Everyone including the UN were saying something had to be done to avoid bloodshed, but the UN did nothing, once more they were just blabbering their mouths, the UNITED STATES was the one who went forward and helped avoid mass bloodshed.

If Bush was president when the latest massacre in Rwanda happened, with the help of the French to commit genocide, I am sure he would have sent troops there and help the oppressed. But as always, Clinton was in office did nothing and the US has been partially blamed because of Clinton's decision to do nothing there even thou we had been helping the Rwandan Patriotic Front (RPF) in the past.

Either way for some reason the U.S is always blamed, whether we do something or do not get involved, yet France, who was a more active participant in this and other genocides, seems to have been forgiven by the international community.....go figure.

[Edited on 18-5-2004 by Muaddib]

People are quick to point the finger at the United States and the Clinton Administration but the French provided the weapons of Genocide in Rwanda. The French deserve far more blame than the United States when it comes to the Rwandan Genocide.

As of course do the Belgians for creating the racially charged system the Rwandans were forced to live under, under Belgian rule.

In 1994, a few Belgians got killed and they ran like dogs with their tails between their legs. They created it and they ran from it.


[Edited on 19-5-2004 by AndJusticeforAll]

Muaddib

I'm so glad you started this thread.

There is a Documentary about the 10th anniversary
of this massive slaughter.

Ghosts of Rwanda

This link is worth a visit, most of the contents of the show, have been modified to Web-content.
It played on American TV a few weeks ago.
All I could do was shake my head.

Take a look at the key players, you'll see why this was allowed to happen.

The results of inaction can sometimes be deadlier than action.

Response to Muaddib

First, I must apologies for the late reponse to your follow-up on this discussion thread, as I had other more important issues to address personally, in real life.
Secondly, I acknowledge your European roots and "high school" education, as you stated. My assumption was wrongly based on my perception of your, in my opinion unbalanced and diverting writings.

Originally posted by Muaddib
About a useless war and there not being any reason for going to Iraq...

When having a discussing you might try, not to rip your opponents written words out of context, as clearly seen above. I carefully choose my words, and can't remember stating the above. I never said that the Iraq war is or has been useless.

Orginally posted by Hoaks
What prohibits the German general population to speak out about the dangers and uselessness of war, when they know so damn well what it means. The same thing goes for many other European nations.

As you stressed for a reliable link to the source regarding the quoted below.

Originally from CNN.com
China held its first ever joint naval exercises last year with separate drills with Pakistan and India off Shanghai.

Those exercises built on a fostering of contacts with other nations, including the United States.

I quoted it directly from the CNN story used as source for your story. Next time read the entire story, don't make a fool out of yourself. CNN - France joins China navy drills.

Originally posted by Muaddib
As for the French helping show some muscle with the Chinese in view of the Taiwanese elections, the French "were jointly exercising with the Chinese, not with the taiwanese government."

Yes, so what's your point here?

Originally posted by Muaddib
I don't even think you know that Taiwan is an ally of the U.S....

What made you think that?


My final opinion, your latests posts are substancially incomplete and diversive for the discussion, and prove to be hardly any challenge to my remarks on your "news" post. Exsessive use of excerpts won't prove your point. Your counter to my post shows a unwillingness or inabillity to carefully read and/or a lack of comprehension to what I'm pointing out.

Hoaks,
European Voice




[Edited on 19-5-2004 by Hoaks]

Originally posted by Hoaks

As you stressed for a reliable link to the source regarding the quoted below.

Originally from CNN.com
China held its first ever joint naval exercises last year with separate drills with Pakistan and India off Shanghai.
Those exercises built on a fostering of contacts with other nations, including the United States.

I quoted it directly from the CNN story used as source for your story. Next time read the entire story, don't make a fool out of yourself.

Before you go calling anyone a fool, prey tell me exactly how does that say that the U.S helped the Chinese and the French?

We do not even know what all of these nations "compromised" on. There were talks, but what happened during those talks? What exactly did they agree on?

I would doubt the U.S would totally agree without finding some compromise that would be of benefit to Taiwan, "because Taiwan is our ally." But the stance of France in this is a bit strange after their past actions in Rwanda, Sudan and helping a dictatorial killer like Saddam among others.

Originally posted by Hoaks
My final opinion, your latests posts are substancially incomplete and diversive for the discussion, and prove to be hardly any challenge to my remarks on your "news" post. Exsessive use of excerpts won't prove your point. Your counter to my post shows a unwillingness or inabillity to carefully read and/or a lack of comprehension to what I'm pointing out.

Hoaks,
European Voice

Excessive blabbering on your part finding excuses to easily forgive, without accepting what your buddies have done in the "recent" past., in the case of Germany I am talking about the 1990s not the holocaust... if that's what you were refering to when you said the Germans have confesed to their past attrocities...they don't seem to have learnt.

Your buddies did not want to and were against going to war with Iraq because of their interests (money) with the "dictatorial regime." But they still blame the U.S for anything they can think of, and your stance shows your inability to see that your buddies are in for the money and were trying to protect those interests with their anti-war propaganda, and that's the main reason for their anti-war stance.

I have more than proven my point and even posted the view of a "French man" agreeing and giving information that backs up what I have been saying about France being more and more open, and slowly but surely accepting radical Islam, even when they have objected to some of Sharia's laws.



[Edited on 20-5-2004 by Muaddib]