Question to Masons on this board

Hi there,

First let me say that I do not think of all Freemasons to be reptilian baby eating satanists that (__Fill_in_Horrible_Deed_Here) etc etc..


Nonetheless, I've always been rather interested by your fraternity, it's roots, and it's knowledge. No I've not ever applied to a lodge, although it is something that I have thought of doing.

Anyways, I was reading an article that gave what seemed to be a bit of a concise history, and as I've read many many other bits of info on your fraternity that say many of the same things, I was wondering if you'd say the following article gives an accurate depiction of your fraternity.

groups.yahoo.com...

Please note that I only ask in regards to the article linked to, and warn you now that other articles on that particular page you would most likely deem offensive.

Also, I know that some of the information is no longer accurate, as it's out of date. Please feel free to correct those errors on this thread (i.e. It's no longer true that only 32nd Degree and above can be Shriners etc).


Also any other links that have more history on your fraternity are welcome. I believe to truly understand any system, you have to know it's roots just as much as current and future motivations.

Thanks for your time.

TS

The link you provided was not inaccurate (a few small details give me pause as to the author being a Mason, and you identified the change in Shrine requirements), and certainly not of the offensive anti-Masonic nature. To be more helpful to your own case, if you could provide which state, province, or country you live in to choose the proper Grand Lodge as a basis for further information. As an aside, I've always felt that babies were far to small a morsel for any serious consumption.

Glad to see a sense of humor, some can take some things too far, and some take some things out of context, but I'm always glad to find persons who are willing to take some things with a grain of salt.



As far as myself, I'm currently in the Texas area, and as I stated I am a tad interested in joining. The thing is, and please don't take offense, but the thing that detracts from my desire is that I think it may be too fraternal.

Hmm let me explain that as to quell any conspiratorial views that may arise. What I mean to say is that it seems that many masons that I've interacted with, and known in my time, they're really not into the actual teachings of the degrees, or learning the many levels(I don't know many specifics) of symbolism and all the true interpretations of them.
That is to say: I know a acquaintance of mine has gone through his Scottish Rite degrees (up to 32) in a weekend or maybe two weekends *at most*. I mean why the rush? It seems to me, albeit a "uninitiated", that this would make the degrees loose some of their meaning and would be taken with less importance than they had in days gone by.

Are the secrets and symbols of Masonry lost on many of the newer initiates? Is the realm of true understanding and meaningfulness relegated to the older Brothers, and maybe even fragmented now. For example, let's say that one lodge truly focuses on the knowledge, whereas another lodge is known for liking to perform the ritual, and throws a great "Mixer", but the old knowledge is lost on them for the most part.


Sorry to be so long-winded, but I figured it was best to explain as much as I could.

Thanks again!

TS


[edit: grammer]

[Edited on 29-5-2004 by TheSeeker]

TheSeeker,

I can understand your concerns about Masonry being "too fraternal" and having lost its (perhaps original) desire to educate the inner man in our mysteries.

I had the same concern myself when I first joined. What I soon discovered is this, however: all of the Masons who actually do anything in Lodge, who make a difference, share that concern. I've never met any Masons who were just in it for the fellowship.

Now to the weird part of my post. Scottish Rite Masonry, among other things, suggests to me the three-fold division of the nature of Man. I will not get into this in depth. But in my mind, a successful Lodge must have a similar three-fold division, or rather resemble a tripod, the legs being "fellowship," "philosophy," and "morality." With all three of these elements, corresponding (respectively) to the body, the mind, and the spirit, a Lodge will be succesful. Without them, a Lodge will not.

But, in a nutshell, I assure you that you will find many like-minded Masons interested in the deeper meaning of our rituals, not only in the Craft Lodge, but especially in the "higher" degrees.

Originally posted by TheSeeker
As far as myself, I'm currently in the Texas area, and as I stated I am a tad interested in joining.

Here are a few links for you:
Grand Lodge of Texas - www.grandlodgeoftexas.org... : (you should be able to contact them about the different lodges)

Grand Lodge of England: www.grandlodge-england.org... (this is the oldest Grand Lodge in the World. Basically the head of Freemasonry in the world and the origins of American Freemasonry)

Grand Lodge of Scotland: www.grandlodgescotland.com... (This is my Grand Lodge and we have the oldest Freemason Lodge in the World. )

The links will have alot of information and history on the fraternity.

I know a acquaintance of mine has gone through his Scottish Rite degrees (up to 32) in a weekend or maybe two weekends *at most*. I mean why the rush?

Now, there are only 3 Degrees in Masonry. The other degrees that you hear about are only honorary degrees. American Freemasonry, created the Scottish Rite and has the 32nd degree. I am under the York Rite, which does not have these degrees. But, yes, the 5th to the 32 are done in a weekend. Usuallly two days. But, the 1st 3 degrees are not taken on so fast. These degree have alot of symbolism and meaning and are usually done very well.

Are the secrets and symbols of Masonry lost on many of the newer initiates? Is the realm of true understanding and meaningfulness relegated to the older Brothers, and maybe even fragmented now. For example, let's say that one lodge truly focuses on the knowledge, whereas another lodge is known for liking to perform the ritual, and throws a great "Mixer", but the old knowledge is lost on them for the most part.

The ritual and ceremony of course will be slightly different lodge to lodge, but will coincide with their Grand Lodges requirements as directed. Now, about the mixer... Well, yes this can happen. But, this is pretty rare. It is best to ask and talk with with the Grand Lodge or a lodge in your area. Explain what type of Lodge you want to join. They will point you to the one best suited for you.
As an example: The Grand Lodge of Japan does not have a dress code. Members usually wear casual attire (no jeans ot T`s though). The Grand Lodge of Scotland requires us to wear Tuxedos, Scottish Formal, or Dark Business Suits (out meetings are on Tuesday nights). So, we are alot more formal.

[Edited on 29-5-2004 by JCMinJapan]

Uk Masonry is slower and perhaps more relaxed than the US.

It could take some 15 to 20 years to get to the 32nd degree. The guys I chat to can't undertsand all the fuss.

I am a Past Master in Craft ( Blue Lodge ) and in Royal Arch. I will join Rose next year and get I think its 18th degree. 15 years so far. I really could not care less about getting these extra browny points. I enjoy what I do now.

The best adice I was ever given was to teat Masonry like a quality Novel, read it a page at a time. If you dont like the book , you can always put the book down.

No one will be round with a gang of heavies to make you do what you are told.
A good lodge will allow you to progress at your pace.

Originally posted by TheSeeker
As far as myself, I'm currently in the Texas area, and as I stated I am a tad interested in joining. The thing is, and please don't take offense, but the thing that detracts from my desire is that I think it may be too fraternal.

Are the secrets and symbols of Masonry lost on many of the newer initiates? Is the realm of true understanding and meaningfulness relegated to the older Brothers, and maybe even fragmented now. For example, let's say that one lodge truly focuses on the knowledge, whereas another lodge is known for liking to perform the ritual, and throws a great "Mixer", but the old knowledge is lost on them for the most part.
[Edited on 29-5-2004 by TheSeeker]

I just knew if I took my time that my fellow lizards would swoop in, and do all the heavy lifting (once I get my Royal Conference I'm not doing anything ). TS, Freemasonry is just like anything else, you get what you put into it. Yes, there are Masons who fail to understand the true beauty of what is taught, but they have either no interest or lack the intellectual ability to comprehend such things. Everyone in the Craft anecdotally knows a Brother who can reel off lecture after lecture, section of ritual one right after another; but ask him a question during refreshment as to the inner meaning, you will get a blank look followed by a hasty retreat. If you interests lie within the esoteric aspects of Freemasonry (as our esteemed ML does) you will be inundated as to the true nature of things after receiving More Light. I salute your interest, and remember, two cups of marinade per five pounds of human flesh gets the job done.


[Edited on 29-5-2004 by Mirthful Me]

Must say, really great responses. I'll go ahead and quote below to respond.

Mr. Kennedy:

"I had the same concern myself when I first joined. What I soon discovered is this, however: all of the Masons who actually do anything in Lodge, who make a difference, share that concern. I've never met any Masons who were just in it for the fellowship."

That's good to hear. Even though I don't mind fellowship being part of the focus, I'd be saddened to learn that it was the only focus.

"Now to the weird part of my post. Scottish Rite Masonry, among other things, suggests to me the three-fold division of the nature of Man. I will not get into this in depth. But in my mind, a successful Lodge must have a similar three-fold division, or rather resemble a tripod, the legs being "fellowship," "philosophy," and "morality." With all three of these elements, corresponding (respectively) to the body, the mind, and the spirit, a Lodge will be successful. Without them, a Lodge will not."

Excellent. This is a response that I had hoped I'd get. I've thought about it and that does make sense. Rather insightful, thanks for that.


"But, in a nutshell, I assure you that you will find many like-minded Masons interested in the deeper meaning of our rituals, not only in the Craft Lodge, but especially in the "higher" degrees."

Great, I'd hoped that as one progressed into the other Rites and their degrees, that you'd be furthering your understanding and meeting others that have taken the Blue Lodge's basic(if they can be called basic) truths and have started to really expand on this knowledge. I know it's not for everyone, but good to hear that there are many that hold these interests. I'd say that would be of much interest to myself.

Thank you for your thoughts and time. Very helpful.


JCMinJapan:

Thank you for the links, I'll be looking them over shortly.

"Now, there are only 3 Degrees in Masonry. The other degrees that you hear about are only honorary degrees. American Freemasonry, created the Scottish Rite and has the 32nd degree. I am under the York Rite, which does not have these degrees. But, yes, the 5th to the 32 are done in a weekend. Usually two days. But, the 1st 3 degrees are not taken on so fast. These degree have a lot of symbolism and meaning and are usually done very well."

Sorry I was not more clear. I meant to say that he did his Scottish Rite 5-32 very swiftly. I'm totally unsure how long obtaining Master Mason (1-3 for others who may read) took him. I've gathered through my research that it can be as little as 60 days and as much as 6 months, but I'm not sure.


"The ritual and ceremony of course will be slightly different lodge to lodge, but will coincide with their Grand Lodges requirements as directed. Now, about the mixer... Well, yes this can happen. But, this is pretty rare. It is best to ask and talk with with the Grand Lodge or a lodge in your area. Explain what type of Lodge you want to join. They will point you to the one best suited for you.
As an example: The Grand Lodge of Japan does not have a dress code. Members usually wear casual attire (no jeans to T`s though). The Grand Lodge of Scotland requires us to wear Tuxedos, Scottish Formal, or Dark Business Suits (out meetings are on Tuesday nights). So, we are a lot more formal."

Good to know, should I decide to pursue membership I'll research the lodges. I know most times you are expected(if not required) to join a lodge in your city. I live in a old and small town, with very very heavy Masonic roots. That leads me to believe it to be a great lodge, but if it were not what I was looking for, can you find a lodge elsewhere? There's a large city not so very far away, and I'm sure they have more than a single lodge there.

As far as the formality in your Lodge of choice, I must say that's very interesting, and I'd assume such formalities prevail throughout the rest of your Lodge. Nice indeed, I may look for similar.


billmcelligott:
Hi and thank you for your thoughts. They did produce a few questions however.

"It could take some 15 to 20 years to get to the 32nd degree. The guys I chat to can't understand all the fuss."


Interesting that it can take (if one chose I'd suppose) such a time to reach those degrees. It intrigues me as to the amount of knowledge there is to study? If anyone could respond to this (within your bounds, I'm not looking to get secrets divulged) thought, it's greatly appreciated.


"I am a Past Master in Craft ( Blue Lodge ) and in Royal Arch. I will join Rose next year and get I think its 18th degree."

Maybe I'm unfamiliar with the term "Past Master in Craft"? But I took it as you've since left the Brotherhood? If so, and you don't mind, may I ask why? Thank you.


"The best advice I was ever given was to teat Masonry like a quality Novel, read it a page at a time. If you don't like the book , you can always put the book down."

Sound advice, duly noted and appreciated. I would imagine this would stem from the belief of man's right to choice, and the (from what I gather) strong belief of Freemasonry in personal independence?

Mirthful Me:

Thanks for the reply. Rest assured, I've placed your cooking tips into my "Betty Crocker Cookbook"

Not totally certain what your Royal Conference is, but congratulations on that regardless. Feel free to expand on that if you can.


"Everyone in the Craft anecdotally knows a Brother who can reel off lecture after lecture, section of ritual one right after another; but ask him a question during refreshment as to the inner meaning, you will get a blank look followed by a hasty retreat."

I'm sure that to be the case, as long as they do not keep others to finding more of the light, I'd be ok with that. It seems from all the responses so far that you would all say that is the case. That's good to know.



" If you interests lie within the esoteric aspects of Freemasonry (as our esteemed ML does) you will be inundated as to the true nature of things after receiving More Light."

Excellent, I'm very glad to hear this. Really appreciated.




"I salute your interest, and remember, two cups of marinade per five pounds of human flesh gets the job done."

I'll be sure to give it a go at my next cookout.


Thanks again to everyone for such great responses!

TS

Originally posted by billmcelligott
It could take some 15 to 20 years to get to the 32nd degree. The guys I chat to can't undertsand all the fuss.

It takes 15 years just to get to the Chair in most of the local Lodges around here. The current wait in my Lodge, if you were to join now, is 17 years.
I recently heard (last week) of another local mason taking 35 years to get to the Chair - now there's a healthy Lodge!!!


The link provided in the original post is also incorrect. The majority of MMs in my province go onto either Chapter or Mark Masonry and don't just stop at the 3rd as it suggests.

My grandfather is a mason, my mom and her parents came from Scottland on the boat. I have never talked to him about it but I plan to the next time I see him. My mom says he would never tell her anything about it because she is a girl, she said I might have better luck.

Even though my mother is as evil as you can get I'm pretty sure she is not a reptile nor is my grandfather :0

[Edited on 29-5-2004 by d1k]

Originally posted by TheSeeker
"It could take some 15 to 20 years to get to the 32nd degree. The guys I chat to can't understand all the fuss."

Interesting that it can take (if one chose I'd suppose) such a time to reach those degrees. It intrigues me as to the amount of knowledge there is to study? If anyone could respond to this (within your bounds, I'm not looking to get secrets divulged) thought, it's greatly appreciated.


"I am a Past Master in Craft ( Blue Lodge ) and in Royal Arch. I will join Rose next year and get I think its 18th degree."

Maybe I'm unfamiliar with the term "Past Master in Craft"? But I took it as you've since left the Brotherhood? If so, and you don't mind, may I ask why? Thank you.

If I told you that one of the studies undertaken was "The Knowledge of Yourself" would that explain why it takes so long? You can take a whole lifetime just as a Master Mason to find the answer to that one - and even then it's ongoing.


Past Master is the title given to every freemason who has been through the Chair of his Lodge. Every year the Lodge is run by a different mason and he is known as the Worshipful Master. Masons move up, year by year in different offices until they get to this position.

Originally posted by TheSeeker

Sorry I was not more clear. I meant to say that he did his Scottish Rite 5-32 very swiftly. I'm totally unsure how long obtaining Master Mason (1-3 for others who may read) took him. I've gathered through my research that it can be as little as 60 days and as much as 6 months, but I'm not sure.

How long it takes one to go from 1 - 3 widely varies depending on the person and the lodge requirements and how many other people waiting in front of you. In my lodge, it take usually around 5 months up to 1 year to get to 3rd Degree. I am in Scottish Masonry (York Rite), and do not know alot about the Scottish Rite, but I have asked alot of questions. Over here in Japan, it takes two days to go from 4th to the 32nd. As another mentioned, it can take many many years. In the York Rite, we do not have 32 degrees, they run a little differently. But, as mentioned, these are only honorary degrees. Everyone is a Master Mason. But, not to take away from the degrees, even though honorary degrees, they go into the history and deeper aspects of the degrees. I guess the best way to say it is that the 1st 3 degrees are official, the rest of the degrees are for your personal self.

I live in a old and small town, with very very heavy Masonic roots. That leads me to believe it to be a great lodge, but if it were not what I was looking for, can you find a lodge elsewhere? There's a large city not so very far away, and I'm sure they have more than a single lodge there.

Yes, this should not be a problem. They of course prefer you to join one in your town. But, if the lodge is just not for you, then I am sure even that Lodge would suggest one better suited for you.

As far as the formality in your Lodge of choice, I must say that's very interesting, and I'd assume such formalities prevail throughout the rest of your Lodge. Nice indeed, I may look for similar.

Yes, our Lodge is pretty formal, except for Harmony. No one is really tough in my lodge, but most have been in Masonry for 15-65 years now. Yes, 65 years. So, many know their stuff and they really care about keeping the traditions and letting candidates and the other brethern get alof out of the meetings. When I joined, I had the same questions as you. I went to a lodge that shared two lodges in the building. I actually met a representative from each lodge at the same time. They asked what I was looking for and what I wanted out of the craft. Then they explained about each lodge and asked my opinion. I explained what I wanted and the person from one lodge suggested that I join the other, as it was more towards my way. After all, this is your journey, just be upright and honest and you will be directed accordingly.

"I am a Past Master in Craft ( Blue Lodge ) and in Royal Arch. I will join Rose next year and get I think its 18th degree."

Maybe I'm unfamiliar with the term "Past Master in Craft"? But I took it as you've since left the Brotherhood? If so, and you don't mind, may I ask why? Thank you.

No, he is not an ex-mason. That means that he was once the head person of the lodge. In masonry, people do not stay the head of the lodge until they die or give it up. Usually, it is like a year or two, they they move to side and let the next brother lead the ceremony.

I'm sure that to be the case, as long as they do not keep others to finding more of the light, I'd be ok with that. It seems from all the responses so far that you would all say that is the case. That's good to know.

From my experience, when I have a question that someone cannot answer, they usually say.... "hmmmm, Not really sure, but ask Bro. So&So, he will surely know". There always seems to be at least or two in every lodge that are very respected and know their stuff inside and out. I have never gotten a cold I DO NOT KNOW answer from a someone.

"I salute your interest, and remember, two cups of marinade per five pounds of human flesh gets the job done."

I'll be sure to give it a go at my next cookout.

But, remember this... I just found out myself, but there are NO FOX MAIDENS!
Yes, Mirth, ML, and AK, I am still shook up about it, but I have come out of seclusion and ready to face reality.

[Edited on 29-5-2004 by JCMinJapan]

See AK, like I said, shred all the documents, put the squeeze on JCM and this whole Fox-Maiden thing would blow over. Now if you could just send over the files on mage, we'll get that issue straightened out as well, the (supposedly mythical demonic) creatures behind door #2 are making so much noise that I can barely formulate a post, if I don't feed them quick I might slip up and reveal something, like our secret underground base at... hey wait... is this thing on? Now I've done it... we really WILL have to take over the world now.

Originally posted by Mirthful Me
See AK, like I said, shred all the documents, put the squeeze on JCM and this whole Fox-Maiden thing would blow over. Now if you could just send over the files on mage, we'll get that issue straightened out as well, the (supposedly mythical demonic) creatures behind door #2 are making so much noise that I can barely formulate a post, if I don't feed them quick I might slip up and reveal something, like our secret underground base at... hey wait... is this thing on? Now I've done it... we really WILL have to take over the world now.

MM - We have addressed the Purple Alert - The yellow raven has left the green nest towards the east. All is now CLEAR I repeat: ALL IS NOW CLEAR....... Please replace the locks and seal the doors.....


(btw: for those of you who do not know a Puple alert is one that is not quite a red alert, but worse than a blue alert)

TS

Interesting that it can take (if one chose I'd suppose) such a time to reach those degrees. It intrigues me as to the amount of knowledge there is to study? If anyone could respond to this (within your bounds, I'm not looking to get secrets divulged) thought, it's greatly appreciated.

There is as much or as little knowledge as you wish to take on board.

Maybe I'm unfamiliar with the term "Past Master in Craft"? But I took it as you've since left the Brotherhood? If so, and you don't mind, may I ask why? Thank you.

No I have not left, the term indicates that I have been a Worshipful Master of my Mother lodge at one point. I was a Master I am now referred to as a past Master.

Sound advice, duly noted and appreciated. I would imagine this would stem from the belief of man's right to choice, and the (from what I gather) strong belief of Freemasonry in personal independence?

Yep, you got it in one.

MM, ML, AK.... Just passed the level where the Fox Maidens have been reportedly not to exist. I now understand, all I can say is Thank you all! Case closed.... never to be brought up again. I will U2U you all the details.....

I know some Masons and they all are the same they will give no information up I do know that most are rich or have power ties to the commiuty

Originally posted by AGENT 007
I know some Masons and they all are the same they will give no information up I do know that most are rich or have power ties to the commiuty

Well you do surprise me, the original 007 is a Freemason.

What would you like to know?

Originally posted by Leveller

Originally posted by TheSeeker
"It could take some 15 to 20 years to get to the 32nd degree. The guys I chat to can't understand all the fuss."

Interesting that it can take (if one chose I'd suppose) such a time to reach those degrees. It intrigues me as to the amount of knowledge there is to study? If anyone could respond to this (within your bounds, I'm not looking to get secrets divulged) thought, it's greatly appreciated.


"I am a Past Master in Craft ( Blue Lodge ) and in Royal Arch. I will join Rose next year and get I think its 18th degree."

Maybe I'm unfamiliar with the term "Past Master in Craft"? But I took it as you've since left the Brotherhood? If so, and you don't mind, may I ask why? Thank you.

If I told you that one of the studies undertaken was "The Knowledge of Yourself" would that explain why it takes so long? You can take a whole lifetime just as a Master Mason to find the answer to that one - and even then it's ongoing.


Past Master is the title given to every Freemason who has been through the Chair of his Lodge. Every year the Lodge is run by a different mason and he is known as the Worshipful Master. Masons move up, year by year in different offices until they get to this position.

Leveller,
I'm glad to hear that the symbolism is indeed as deep as I suspect. That's really very much in tune with what I have interest in.

As to the definition of Past Master, thank you for making that clear. Interesting that every Mason must hold each of the positions, seems a logical way to gather experience at all angles of one's local fraternity's operations.

I'd assume that when one is in the position of WM, he presides over the whole lodge, and I guess would be the "Master of Ceremony" during ritual? Just wondering.

Thank you again!

TS

Originally posted by JCMinJapan
From my experience, when I have a question that someone cannot answer, they usually say.... "hmmmm, Not really sure, but ask Bro. So&So, he will surely know". There always seems to be at least or two in every lodge that are very respected and know their stuff inside and out. I have never gotten a cold I DO NOT KNOW answer from a someone.

This was one of the more prevalent fears I had. Most assuring to know that one's personal search for knowledge could not be slowed by other's lack of it or unwillingness to share it. Now that I see that's not the case, I must admit the thought of joining is much stronger in my mind.

"I salute your interest, and remember, two cups of marinade per five pounds of human flesh gets the job done."

I'll be sure to give it a go at my next cookout.

But, remember this... I just found out myself, but there are NO FOX MAIDENS!

Yes, Mirth, ML, and AK, I am still shook up about it, but I have come out of seclusion and ready to face reality.

Now this here, this is totally unacceptable! I was always under the impression that I'd have not only my selection of a stable of Fox Maidens, but that I'd have the opportunity to use them during my lizard rituals and have their aide while preparing "puny mortals" for supper.!

;P

Hehe, thanks for the great info, and for the laughs!