Filmmaker Geert Wilders faces hatred charges.........

reply to post by Jean Paul Zodeaux


NO!! as long as those views disagree with my constitution!!!!

Peace

Originally posted by Dumbass
The real question is not about the islam, blasphemy or what so ever.
The real question is about the democracy vs. the constitutional state.

In this case; can a politician say what ever he wants (democracy) or does he need to be put on trail like any other citizen (constitutional state).

But heey, who am I, I'm just a dumbass

reply to post by Dumbass


Touché

Peace

But, the Muslims he is ranting against are promoting values and political disourse that ..... are specifically against your constitution.

How do you resolve this lack of congruent integrity about this issue within yourself?

He's white, they aren't?

They constitution is a legal document applying to the limitations of the GOVENRMENT and institutions. It applies to the group - it is not a limitation on INDIVIDUAL rights.

Originally posted by Aeons
But, the Muslims he is ranting against are promoting values and political disourse that ..... are specifically against your constitution.

How do you resolve this lack of congruent integrity about this issue within yourself?

By not accepting his opinion as absolute truth. Where are these people that are promoting specifically against my constitution? Mr. Wilders says it's the Muslims. This makes it true?

As i said before. I know most 1st generation Muslims living here do not have any problem with our constitution, respect it and wouldn't dream of changing it. These people would be excluded and that just doesn't sit right with me.

Peace



[edit on 21/1/2010 by operation mindcrime]

Constitutions limit the state and regulate legislation and institutions.

Not individuals.

Any group advocating Shariah is in contravention of a Constitutional system. That isn't a debatable point, unless you don't understand Shariah. If you want to take Wilders to court for that, you must then also apply this to these groups.

Or they both have freedom of political discourse.

[edit on 2010/1/21 by Aeons]

Originally posted by operation mindcrime
reply to post by Jean Paul Zodeaux

 

NO!! as long as those views disagree with my constitution!!!!

Peace

If you are referring to the Constitution for Holland, I am at a disadvantage because the only copies of the full text I can find online are written in Dutch. However, as best I understand from what I have read on other articles about this constitution is that censorship is expressly prohibited. Are you saying this is incorrect?

About Constitution of the Netherlands

Constitution of the Netherlands in English

[edit on 2010/1/21 by Aeons]

reply to post by operation mindcrime


Looks like you are out numbered here. Sorry, I think you are doing a good job of expressing yourself, even if I disagree with your opinion on Gert Wilders rights, and beliefs.

I am originally of Dutch descent myself, but my family has been here in the states going on 4oo years now. One of these days I would like to make it to Holland and visit the county from which I have my namesake.

Now I rebel against my own government here in the states regularly, also. The difference is that I am trying to improve my country, and maintain or increase my liberty, and all that. I am well aware of the many areas of corruptions in our western institutions. I suspect you don't so much act against the best wishes of Holland, but act to make Holland a better place.

The radical element of Islam want to change Holland into a new Muslim state.

Do you understand the difference?

Of course I understand the importance of Gert Wilders position in how he voices his opinion, and I support what he says because I think he is right. I hope all of the western world is paying attention. I think that our desire to be tolerant of others has gone too far, and we are being taken advantage of. As a person who lives in one of the most culturally diverse metropolitan areas of the planet, I am speaking from experience.

Yes, I have heard that most of the problems are coming from second and third generation immigrants. Where do you think their attitudes come from? Have you considered that while their parents kept to themselves. they were still resentful of their newly adopted country, and that resentment is now being brought out by their children?

Considering that almost every country in Europe is currently having a great many problems with Muslim immigrants, the Muslim immigrants being the common denominator, most likely they are the problem. It isn't just Europe, India has the same problems, and just about every nation on the planet these days.

I hope you enjoy the game, our local soccer team is named the "Earthquakes".

I fully agree with Mr Wilders. I just watched his video "FITNA" and I have seen in the past few years what is going on with Islam.

We are engaged in a war with religious fanatics and in our stupidity and desire to be accommodating we are losing and will continue to lose until such time as we awaken and realize we have been overrun.

My grandchildren will NOT grow up under Islamic law.

reply to post by poet1b


Thanks for the reply.

Yeah, i am outnumbered and outranked in this thread

I hold no degree in politics and this is way over my head but i just got this gut feeling that the primary instinct of fear is making us agree that it is okay to point out a specific group of people and blame them.

Do we know for sure that each and every individual within the Muslim community is actively trying to undermine our society??

The radical element of Islam wants to change Holland into a new Muslim state.

By "the radical element of Islam", do you mean Shi`a? I think for a politician such as Geert Wilders it might be important to emphasize on that part a little bit more. Because i believe only 15% of the Muslim community is Shi`a.

It's all fear, from one side to the other.

Peace and respect

I see you have fallen prey to the One Sect of Islam is Where All the Bad Boys Are thing.

I actually have no care whatsoever if you are Muslim.

If you, as a Muslim, wish in your everyday life to consensually apply the articles of your faith within the confines of law - you go for it.

On a legal basis a woman is equal. If she divorces and has children, and the courts grant them both equal grounds and the woman ON THE BASIS OF HER FAITH decides that she doesn't deserve what she gets and she is pious - well she is welcome to waive custody and write a cheque to her ex-husband to return what she believes is not her due BASED ON HER FAITH.

Nothing stops people from pursuing their faith within the confines of a constitutional democracy. There are simply those who believe that they faith supercedes and supplants any other law.


I've actually found that most people who do not know Islam and do not know many Muslims and have not really discussed these matters with any are often very open-hearted and full of acceptance. Friendly is not friends is what I have to say. The people I know who are most concerned about Islamization - are people who have lived in Islamic nations.

I don't know what newspapers you have been reading, or what forums you have been following, but one crucial fact seems to be getting inverted.

It is, in actual fact, quite accepted, popular, and common to denigrate, decry, and generally all-out bash Islam.
Pop the term into the search engine here and see what the perspective of the majority of threads on Islam is.
Open your local newspaper to the editorial page. I get at least one anti-Islam op-ed a week in my newspaper.
Browse a few random non-Islam related threads on ATS, and look for *a certain obsessed poster* to jump in at some point with some anti-Islam stuff with little/no relevance to the thread topic.

If Mr. Wilders were limiting himself to the general "Islam is a religion of hate that seeks to take over the world through violent Jihad." he would be fine, fine, fine....he would fit right in with the general tone of discourse. It's when he starts to jump into talking about taking away peoples' rights because they are Muslim, and expressing his approval for race riots, that he finally starts to draw some fire, because what he's saying is clearly inflammatory, discriminatory, and flirts with advocating violence against Muslims.

Also, if anyone cared to do even the most cursory research, that person could find plenty of lawsuits launched against public figures for making statements defamatory of Christianity, Judaism, Hinduism, Scientology, etc. Most of these lawsuits/human rights tribunal cases don't go anywhere, but they do get filed. One religion leads the pack for lawsuits by a wide margin, and it isn't Islam.

Seriously people, I don't know where you get this persecution stuff from, but maybe you should scan back through this and a half-dozen other threads and count up the "yeas" and "nays".

reply to post by operation mindcrime


I think you are doing alright.

No, I don't think each and every individual within the Muslim community is working to undermine our society. I don't think most people feel this way, and that very, very few people feel this way.

I would say most Muslims are simply going along with the flow. Many are trapped by a sense of fear. The radical elements work to stir up a restless youth, and there you have it.



I think the biggest problem is that we have two very different cultures that simply do not mix well together. This is being exaggerated by an over rationalized sense or Western guilt over having been successful at conquering the planet. We succeeded in doing what everyone else wanted to do, and there is no reason for us to feel guilty of winning the big game, so to speak.

What made us successful is our development of democratic style governments, and concepts such as the rights of man. In other worlds, Western civilization succeeded because we learned to treat everyone better.

This sense of guilt so many want to embrace is being taken advantage of by extremist who display a fair amount of envy and jealousy, and so seek to demonize Westerner's for our success.

Have you read any of these versions of history that are being peddled, that claim all the success of Europeans, or whites, is because we stole all of our technology from others, and are essentially far more warlike than other people?

This is, however, simply a European situation. Islam is actively seeking to colonize Africa, and continues its war against India, and working on spreading into China. These facts should not be ignored.

reply to post by PocketRevolution


Yeah...that sounds about right.

Peace

He isn't on trial for some comments on promoting race riots.

I actually posted what he is on trial for in this thread.

People - INCLUDING SOME MUSLIMS - have some very serious concerns about Islamization.

You may rest assured that I am no more accepting of Islamic people wanting to supplant legislative societial individual rights with their Koranic based ideas than I am with the idiots who want to supplant the same with the Bible.

Both sets can kiss my lilly white butt.

That being said - what Wilders is up for is covered under the constitution. It is not any worse than what his target group are saying about him and Westernized governance.

As a matter of fact, he is probably better protected because he expresses his belief as AN INDIVIDUAL. Whereas some of the people who are spouting against him are doing so AS A GROUP, which means that they may actually be running afoul specifically with their constititution.

Further, you can find dozens of people on this board who hop on any Christian topic and cry and scream about Christians. You can go on most about Atheism, and find people yelling at the Atheists. You just happen to only pay attention apparently to the Muslim ones.

What one says may be abhorrent - but that doesn't mean they don't have the right to say it.

[edit on 2010/1/21 by Aeons]

reply to post by poet1b


CAN'T WE ALL JUST GET ALONG??



I believe in the freedom of sleep, goodnight!!

Peace

reply to post by Aeons


Yeah, that is what I have noticed. The more people learn about Islam, the more concerned they are.

The ignorant ones are calling everyone else ignorant for pointing out the reasons why we should be very concerned about Islam.

Pretty much throughout these threads, it is the people defending Islam who are making most of the personal attacks.

Let's be clear Muslim's don't want equal rights, they want special rights. When you can piss in a jar on a statue of Jesus and call it art.......and no one tries to kill the artist instead he's praised in some circles for being a visionary and a genious. However, let someone draw a picture of the Islamic peodophile messiah with a bomb for a turban on his head, and they want to kill the artist. If this was a film about Christianity, do you honestly think he'd be in court? It's a joke, and if it takes this man going to court to make it more widely known, good for him. However, as I asked before, assuming the court finds him innocent, how many of the members of the court will be facing death threats?

Originally posted by 3vilscript
"I Don't Agree With What You Say, but I'll defend to the death your right to say it."

That being said, I don't think a documentary focusing on a single religion, and calling it evil has much credibility. You could very well make the same kind of documentaries for Christianity or Judaism. I do think that having to hide and live in fear for what you believe is wrong.

I agree with you. This is a focused and deliberate attack. It is not fair, and does not acknowledge any of the good things about the religion. Focusing only on a certain side isn't credible, nor is calling it "evil". It is essentially religious propaganda, and for those of you spouting freedom of speech, what about freedom of religion?