Filmmaker Geert Wilders faces hatred charges.........

Disgusting, European elite are nothing more than dhimmis

Originally posted by blueorder
Disgusting, European elite are nothing more than dhimmis

WTF?
So you are saying that Geert is inferior and he is disgusting for bringing to light that Islam is a brutal and violent religion?

reply to post by JJay55


I think you have completely misread what I have said.


When I say "European" elite, I am not referring to WIlders, I am referring to those in charge of our judiciary, governments etc.


Our elite are disgusting for even making it a possibility for this courageous man to have committed a crime for simply speaking his mind, and they are dhimmis

Originally posted by blueorder
reply to post by JJay55

 

I think you have completely misread what I have said.


When I say "European" elite, I am not referring to WIlders, I am referring to those in charge of our judiciary, governments etc.


Our elite are disgusting for even making it a possibility for this courageous man to have committed a crime for simply speaking his mind, and they are dhimmis

Yep. Thanks for clarifying. UK's Brown is the biggest dhimmi of them all.
Geert is the only one, and he seems to stand alone, who is speaking out. Where are the rest???
Apparently since the US isn't using "Islam" in the Ft Hood case we have some dhimmi's in our Administration too.

reply to post by JJay55


yep, this condition is a cancer at the heart of our western world.

In Britain leftists tend to hate Christianity so much that they will saddle up with muslims................................even though the muslims offer a religion that would make a 15th century Christian fundamentalist look quite liberal.

I speak not as a particularly religious Christian, but as someone who realises and appreciates that one of the main reasons we in the west have a rich heritage, culture etc is because of our Christian ethos and history

To all,

Before the bandwagon is full, I'd like to add that freedom of speech might be a wonderful thing but one must not forget that this man is also a politician and by bringing religion into the political play field this man is undermining the very principal of separation of church and state.

Religion has no place in politics!!!!

reply to post by operation mindcrime


think that is his agenda, Islam brings a legal, political and social framework into society- he is saying, no thanks


Anyways, he isn't calling for the introduction of religious law, he is gay, just trying to prevent the increasing prevalance of Islam, kudos to him

Originally posted by operation mindcrime
To all,

Before the bandwagon is full, I'd like to add that freedom of speech might be a wonderful thing but one must not forget that this man is also a politician and by bringing religion into the political play field this man is undermining the very principal of separation of church and state.

Religion has no place in politics!!!!

As much as I agree with the no relgion in politics, it kinda does fly in the face of how politics is in Europe.. Christian Democracy has a huge say in what happens throughout Europe, and a number of notable leaders (indluding the New president) are members of Christian Democratic parties.

reply to post by thoughtsfull


it is insane to believe such a black and white separation could occur anyway, it may sound good in paper, but one cannot obliterate the christian ethos and heritage of Europe

It's rather sad we already have two pages of posts supporting Geert Wilders of all people! Who by the way is a politician, not a filmmaker (you might want to change the title of this thread?).

'Freedom of speech' is a lame argument to justify hatred and neo-fascism. Everyone hates Hitler, Mussolini, Degrelle ... but we all love Geert Wilders? Are you saying then, we hate what previous fascist leaders did, but actually we support what they say?
I'd like to repost a reply I made on an older topic on the guy, which might put some things in perspective:

(see next post)

First thing: there's no such thing as "THE Islam" - as in christianity, there are numerous different spirits and points of view. Radical, opposing and violence gloryfying muslims make out a vast minority of the total of muslims... Most muslims are no different than other religious people, who choose to live by the given values and moral of their religion. And as far as I can recall we still have freedom of religion, no?

Geert Wilders consciously generalises and thus demonizes all muslims, which is a wrong perspective to start with. His main goal seems to create a climate of fear and hate towards muslims, which, in my opinion makes him just another propagandist, racist, fascist. In that way, he's no different than our Philip Dewinter (Vlaams Belang).

I'm not saying there is no problem at all with muslims in western european countries, but islam as a religion isn't the real cause of these contemporary problems we face.
Most of the muslims living in countries like the Netherlands, Belgium, France, UK, Germany ... are here because of economical reasons (either their parents or grandparents moved in when we needed more labor forces back in the sixties, or they migrated searching for better life conditions).

Multiple factors (little or no education, language barriers, being coloured- racism, no jobs, bad housing ...) make that today's muslims in Europe are far more represented in the lowest social positions, thus making them part of the lowest social class. Most of them were mainly uneducated farmers and mountain people in their fatherland, they already were at the bottom of the social ladder there as well)

The problem we're currently facing has a mainly economic basis, it's not really a cultural thing... although by assuming it is (which is called cultural racism), we polarize the whole situation: we accuse muslims of being reluctant to work, hate our culture, being aggressive, not willing to integrate... while they look at us as being racist, decadent, demonizing Islam...
We expect muslims to integrate into our society, but we're not willing to respect their beliefs or give them the freedom to live according to their own values.
Since we have two parts of a population facing each other, the gap just gets bigger: it's a polarisation, creating more misunderstandings, hate, disrespect ...
Geert Wilders focuses on this society problems and blames Islam/muslims, while in reality the existing problem is far more complicated than that.

Another point is that today's generation of muslims in Europe have quite an 'identity issue': they grew up in a western society, with parents and a community around them that's living towards muslim values. They get a lot of contradicting signals, and we see a couple of different reactions:

the local community becomes more extreme religious, as a reaction to the outside, secularized world (more strict even than religion is experienced in their homeland).
Youngsters drift between morals and standards of their community and western society - they don't know to which part they belong anymore... and by resisting both, they belong nowhere. An atheïst, capitalist, liberal Arab still gets treated different than an atheïst, capitalist, liberal white boy...

Hate, fear and misunderstanding create more hate, fear and misunderstanding - no good can come out of a simplification of such a complex situation like this. A pity people like Geert Wilders get all opportunities to spread such simplifications. He isn't solving the problem with his misidentification of it, on the contrary, he is part of it.

reply to post by Movhisattva


rather sad that you equate Wilders with Hitler

Originally posted by blueorder
reply to post by thoughtsfull

 

it is insane to believe such a black and white separation could occur anyway, it may sound good in paper, but one cannot obliterate the christian ethos and heritage of Europe

I absolutly agree... I think communism sounds great on paper, but would run a mile from it in the real world..

I was just noting that the political ethos in Europe is Christian based, therefore Geerts views are not that far removed from the President of the EU (Herman Van Rompuy) who has make statements along the lines of not wanting Turkey in the EU as they are an Islamic state.

Would he has said the same if Turkey was a Christian nation?

Geert is being scape goated in my opinion.

Originally posted by Movhisattva
First thing: there's no such thing as "THE Islam" - as in christianity, there are numerous different spirits and points of view. Radical, opposing and violence gloryfying muslims make out a vast minority of the total of muslims... Most muslims are no different than other religious people, who choose to live by the given values and moral of their religion. And as far as I can recall we still have freedom of religion, no?

one can deconstruct anything, and when you break it down every single individual in the world is different.

Now looking at things in a more adult manner, an increase in the growth of Islam in Europe will bring increasing community division, strife and oppression- you can wax lyrical about morals and freedom on the internet, but I am loyal to reality, not ideas

Geert Wilders consciously generalises and thus demonizes all muslims, which is a wrong perspective to start with. His main goal seems to create a climate of fear and hate towards muslims, which, in my opinion makes him just another propagandist, racist, fascist. In that way, he's no different than our Philip Dewinter (Vlaams Belang).

you are demonising Wilders and his followers

I'm not saying there is no problem at all with muslims in western european countries, but islam as a religion isn't the real cause of these contemporary problems we face.

You clearly could not deny it, and it is clearly not the only problem- our problems are varied, an increasing Muslim population will add to such problems

Most of the muslims living in countries like the Netherlands, Belgium, France, UK, Germany ... are here because of economical reasons (either their parents or grandparents moved in when we needed more labor forces back in the sixties, or they migrated searching for better life conditions).

From their part that is indeed the reason

Multiple factors (little or no education, language barriers, being coloured- racism, no jobs, bad housing ...) make that today's muslims in Europe are far more represented in the lowest social positions, thus making them part of the lowest social class. Most of them were mainly uneducated farmers and mountain people in their fatherland, they already were at the bottom of the social ladder there as well)

In Britain they move into areas and colonise entire streets

The problem we're currently facing has a mainly economic basis, it's not really a cultural thing... although by assuming it is (which is called cultural racism), we polarize the whole situation: we accuse muslims of being reluctant to work, hate our culture, being aggressive, not willing to integrate... while they look at us as being racist, decadent, demonizing Islam...

It is not mainly economic, it is partially economic, but mainly cultural

We expect muslims to integrate into our society, but we're not willing to respect their beliefs or give them the freedom to live according to their own values.

Erm, it is them who moved to us, not vice versa, of course I expect them to integrate, I would not expect 500,000 european christians to descend on Pakistan and expect them to accomodate their values. Multi culturalism only feeds division and strife, exacerbating an already tenuous situation

Since we have two parts of a population facing each other, the gap just gets bigger: it's a polarisation, creating more misunderstandings, hate, disrespect ...
Geert Wilders focuses on this society problems and blames Islam/muslims, while in reality the existing problem is far more complicated than that.

Another point is that today's generation of muslims in Europe have quite an 'identity issue': they grew up in a western society, with parents and a community around them that's living towards muslim values. They get a lot of contradicting signals, and we see a couple of different reactions:

the local community becomes more extreme religious, as a reaction to the outside, secularized world (more strict even than religion is experienced in their homeland).
Youngsters drift between morals and standards of their community and western society - they don't know to which part they belong anymore... and by resisting both, they belong nowhere. An atheïst, capitalist, liberal Arab still gets treated different than an atheïst, capitalist, liberal white boy...

Hate, fear and misunderstanding create more hate, fear and misunderstanding - no good can come out of a simplification of such a complex situation like this. A pity people like Geert Wilders get all opportunities to spread such simplifications. He isn't solving the problem with his misidentification of it, on the contrary, he is part of it.

when you boil ALL this down, it feeds neatly back to my previous point- one can wax lyrical about notions of freedom, equality etc on an internet forum- in reality an increasing Islamic population will lead to increasing community strife, division, conflict and oppression.

Now you can have a discussion about WHY, you can blame intolerant locals or fundamentalist newcomers, but the reality is that it will happen- to pretend otherwise is to be a utopian day dreamer- HENCE those who dismiss Wilders as a fascist are just idealists not realists

Originally posted by blueorder
reply to post by Movhisattva

 

rather sad that you equate Wilders with Hitler

Not as a person no, and not in what they do/did. But Geert inherited the extreme right hate spreading ideas and the use of propaganda against a minority in society. Let's say I compare his speeches and ideas with Germanys NSDAP around 1930...

Originally posted by Movhisattva
Not as a person no, and not in what they do/did. But Geert inherited the extreme right hate spreading ideas and the use of propaganda against a minority in society. Let's say I compare his speeches and ideas with Germanys NSDAP around 1930...

If such a comparison was valid, which I do not accept, let us hope there is no rising force equivalent to the extreme left to fuel their growth, agh, too late...................

reply to post by blueorder


For your consideration, i have collected and translated a couple of quotes which define Mr. Wilders very well....

(please ignore all the typo's. I did feel like putting through the translation machine)

I think there should be less Muslims in Holland. I find the ideology of the Islam
Abject, fascist and wrong

Het Nieuwsblad (Vlaams), 9 februari 2008

Natives reproduce at a slower rate then immigrants. Immigrants are mainly held up in the larger cities. In twenty years they will be everywhere.

Geert Wilders, interview in De Pers, 27 november 2007

Dutch culture is a thousand times better the Islam

Geert Wilders in Spits, 9 november 2006

Islam is evil itself

Geert Wilders, HP/De Tijd, 12 december 2007

Mohammed is one scary devil which we shouldn’t worship in Holland

Geert Wilders, Het Nieuwsblad (Vlaams), 9 februari 2008 .

Not out of hate but out of pride and self-preservation of our dutch identity and our western values, I defend a immigrationstop from all muslim countries

Geert Wilders, Het Nieuwsblad (Vlaams), 9 februari 2008

I want to discriminate

Geert Wilders, radiointerview, NIO

Of course it is not acceptable if the major cities in Holland are not predominantly white

Geert Wilders, BBC-Hardtalk interview22/3/2006.

It is completely undesirable that Amsterdam has no less then 177 nationalities.

Geert Wilders, AT5, 22/8/2007

All muslims that create problem should be kicked out of the country, including their families.

Geert Wilders, HP/De Tijd, 12 december 2007

Our culture is much better then that of most immigrants

Geert Wilders, HP/De Tijd, 12 december 2007

Why are we afraid to say that muslims should adapt. Because our norms and values just are a lot higher, better, more pleaant and more humane. Forget integration, assimilation! Let them wave their headscarves in protest. I can take them on

Geert Wilders, Volkskrant, 1 februari 2004

I wouldn’t want a growing number, probably in the future a majority, of our society or government to exist of muslims.

Geert Wilders, NOVA 28 februari 2007

A lot of fundamental problems in dutch society like infrastructure, traffic, housing and healthcare are a direct consequence of immigrants

Geert Wilders in interview met DPA, 3 januari 2008

Islam is a violent religion. It is in the nature of the community.

Geert Wilders, Volkskrant 7 oktober 2006

1 out of 5 Moroccan kids is listed as suspect by the police. Their behaviour is a direct consequence of their religion and culture.

Geert Wilders, Volkskrant 7 oktober 2006

Might their ever be racial riots in Holland, which I don’t want, then that doesn’t necessarily imply a negative outcome.

Geert Wilders, Volkskrant, 9 oktober 2004

Immigrants are a fact. Their hypothetical absence in dutch society might be my utopia but is not realistic.

Interview Geert Wilders with German pressbureau DPA

The Koran is a fascistic book that caals to violence. Outlaw the Koran.

Geert Wilders, Volkskrant 8 augustus 2007

I want a new article 1, in which western culture is better represented. I am okay with Jewish and Christian schools just not with Islamic schools.

Geert Wilders, Volkskrant 7 oktober 2006

I am not denying anybody family life. Even non-western immigrants can marry, life together. Just not in Holland.

Geert Wilders, Volkskrant 7 oktober 2006

The immigration of non-western immigrants must stop.

Geert Wilders dutch parliament maart 2007

Peace

[edit on 21/1/2010 by operation mindcrime]

The real question is not about the islam, blasphemy or what so ever.
The real question is about the democracy vs. the constitutional state.

In this case; can a politician say what ever he wants (democracy) or does he need to be put on trail like any other citizen (constitutional state).

But heey, who am I, I'm just a dumbass

reply to post by operation mindcrime


Agree with those statements or not......the fact is the same and worse is said about other religions world wide. And yet, only hate speech seems to apply when Islam is mentioned in a negative light. This is ridiculous and should not be allowed.

reply to post by Dumbass


No it is not.

It is about what Mr. Wilders says and if it is an exercise of his freedom of speech or if he spreading hate and fear with his claims.

As a politician he enjoys political immunity in regards to what he says. As an artist he can he held accountable but the question remains if what he says is merely free speech or crossing the border of discrimination.

We are biased when it comes to this topic so it wouldn't be fair to judge his statements. So a good way to make this judgment would be take all Mr. Wilders quotes (which posted above) and replace all reference to Muslims, Muslim culture or Muslim religion with an other group of people..

Let's do a little experiment.....

(please note that i have edited the quotes only for experimental reasons and none of the quotes hold any truth or represent my opinion in any way)

I think there should be less Jews in Holland. I find the ideology of Judaism abject, fascist and wrong

Natives reproduce at a slower rate then Jews. Jews are mainly held up in the larger cities. In twenty years they will be everywhere.

Dutch culture is a thousand times better the Jewish culture

Judaism is evil itself

The Children of Israel are scary devils which we shouldn’t worship in Holland

Not out of hate but out of pride and self-preservation of our dutch identity and our western values, I defend a immigration-stop for all Jews

I want to discriminate

Of course it is not acceptable if the major cities in Holland are predominantly Jewish

It is completely undesirable that Amsterdam has no less then 177 nationalities.

All Jewish people that create problem should be kicked out of the country, including their families.

Our culture is much better then that of Jewish immigrants

Why are we afraid to say that Jewish people should adapt. Because our norms and values just are a lot higher, better, more pleasant and more humane. Forget integration, assimilation! Let them wave their kippah’s in protest. I can take them on

I wouldn’t want a growing number, probably in the future a majority, of our society or government to exist of Jewish people.

A lot of fundamental problems in dutch society like infrastructure, traffic, housing and healthcare are a direct consequence of Jewish immigrants

Judaism is a violent religion. It is in the nature of the community.

1 out of 5 Jewish kids is listed as suspect by the police. Their behaviour is a direct consequence of their religion and culture.

Might their ever be racial riots in Holland, which I don’t want, then that doesn’t necessarily imply a negative outcome.

Jewish people are a fact. Their hypothetical absence in dutch society might be my utopia but is not realistic.

The Torah is a fascistic book that calls to violence. Outlaw the Torah.

I want a new article 1, in which western culture is better represented. I am okay with Muslim and Christian schools just not with Jewish schools.

I am not denying anybody family life. Even Jewish immigrants can marry, life together. Just not in Holland.

The immigration of Jewish immigrants must stop.

............oh boy!!!

Now who here does not have a first reaction to the above quotes in the form off: " WTF, that is anti-semitical!!!" "You racist!!" etc. etc.

Good!!

Now explain to me what the difference is between freedom of speech and anti-semitics. I guess the same goes for the original quotes of Mr. Wilders.

So to all who are shouting "Wilders for president", please take a moment and do some checking up on history......

Peace