Scientists say dolphins should be treated as 'non-human persons'

Originally posted by kenochs
I'm not buying it.
In my opinion, in order to really be considered intelligent dolphins have to show an awareness of their own mortality.
That's the true test of intelligence, self-awareness is one thing, awareness of your ultimate end as wormfood (or fishfood in this case) is the true test, only then, once this knowledge has rendered them as insane as us, will they be considered truly intelligent.

Oh, there are levels (as mentioned before with the 3 year old example), but all life has a sense of mortality...hense why things run from danger unless cornered.

As far as greater awareness, well, you actually cant prove they dont fully understand their demise. Dolphins show mourning patterns when a family member dies, sometimes for weeks or months on end.

The big seller has always been the fact that dolphins mate for pleasure...the only other species besides man to do so...this means they get bored, they seek fun, pleasure, etc...not as a practical purpose but simply because they enjoy it. That shows more than just base survival instinct moving it.

The rest (brainsize ratio, advanced communication and linguistics, etc) all compiles up into a advanced species..perhaps not technologically but certainly given perhaps a couple hundred thousand years more development could get on board...if they desired to of course. The problem with their development is that they are not conquering species. they carve out their niche and although this is more peaceful, its also very stagnant in future development. Humans, for all our faults, have to give thanks to our hoarding bloodthirsty nature. It is that trait that lifts us to the top of the foodchain and if harnessed, will be the thing that makes our species immortal via space exploration and colonization...something the dolphins at present simply wont do...one drawback is we could become extinct quite quickly if the thing that brought us ahead goes unchecked.

Balance is required.

Originally posted by muzzleflash
WoW these scientists are retarded.

ALL lifeforms are non-human persons.

Holy crap this is 1st grade logic here. Duh.

If anyone failed to realize that other lifeforms are non-human persons, I fail to recognize their intelligence.

I beg to differ I'm afraid. Person denotes personhood which means a sense of self. There are a number of animals that have been proven NOT to have any sense of personhood and therefore cannot be regarded as persons. There are also a number of which that have been proven to have this sense of self of which dolphins are but one.

Originally posted by SuperSlovak
Can a dolphin build a house? Can a dolphin drive a car? NO
I don't know how a fish can be intelligent.

Lets cut off your arms a little above the elbows and see if you can build a house or drive a car. That would just about put you on par with dolphins and their flippers.

Try to think outside the box, your post showed an uninspired human centric point of view.

reply to post by SuperSlovak


Does a dolphin need a house? NO
Can you survive, let alone thrive, with only the body that you were born with? NO

Does a dolphin need to drive a car? NO
Can you chase down your meal without assistance? NO

Isn't the zenith of human technology to have all of life's daily needs met without any effort or without having to worry about it?

The dolphins are already there and have been for millions of years.

Originally posted by December_Rain
reply to post by Mythtified

 

I believe all animals should be treated as non human persons. S&F OP .

Do you think...say tardigrades, blood flukes, termites, bacteria etc should be treated as non-human persons?

Surely you need a sense of self as a bare minimum to be regarded as a person.

www.youtube.com...
clams have feelings too.

Originally posted by reject
reply to post by Mythtified

 

for real? smarter than dogs, cats, and chimpanzees? whoa, and those creatures are more sociable than I am

so, are porpoises and whales the same way?

the only time I had seen a dolphin was when they were performing.

we should treat those species with more respect

Personally I believe that any animal that uses tools in their natural environment should be regarded as intelligent and thus respected. Dolphins are merely one in a long line of animals that use tools. I also believe that at the end of the day when all the required data is in we will discover that some species of squid are even more intelligent than dolphins.

reply to post by Doglord


Wow. How original. You come up with that all by yourself?

Originally posted by Deny Arrogance

They have a universal language, while the naked ape has thousands and can't speak to another non-local naked ape without out a lot of effort and even then there is a lot of mistranslation and misinterpretation.

I'm going to have to disagree with you there. Their language is not strictly universal. Like whales there are different meanings in their language, but they DO have cultural memes that soon spread across the species. There was a case many years back with a new whalesong that was first heard in one small isolated area but which had spread worldwide within 24 months. The scientists at the time likened it to a pop tune.

Originally posted by trevordbs

birds can do maths and talk

classic.

stupidity at its finest.

Some birds have been shown to do math, and many people have talked with a bird.

Ravens are quite amazing. Tool making, self-aware, speak.

Parrots have had tests where they show they have basic math skills.

Originally posted by trevordbs

birds can do maths and talk

classic.

stupidity at its finest.

Am i to believe that you are saying this statement is untrue?

If you are then you are demonstrating stupidity at it's best.

Some types of crows, ravens and certain parrot species have indeed learned a small genuine vocabulary, while others have been shown to employ 'logic' and arithmetic in their decision making. They are also recognised as the creatures only second to humans in their tool use. Google Alex the Parrot.

Originally posted by SuperSlovak
Can a dolphin build a house? Can a dolphin drive a car? NO
I don't know how a fish can be intelligent.

This statement is for me the most compelling evidence that there are some humans that should not be regarded as intelligent persons.

Who is more intelligent?

A human who works forty hours a week for 50 years to have enough money to live for a further 15.

Or

Animals that have no need for a job or a car or a house and find all they need to survive readily available in their immediate environment?

there are different types of intelligence, some of which we excel at some of which other animals do. Some primates are better able to count and group objects together than we can. Some have much greater mental maps.

Most western europeans would be regarded as slow and stupid in the eyes of an African tribesman when it comes to hunting, gathering and surviving in the bush.

It's all relative.

Originally posted by SuperSlovak
Can a dolphin build a house? Can a dolphin drive a car? NO
I don't know how a fish can be intelligent.

First off a Dolphin is a Mammal, you know like Humans, Dogs and Elephants. Second for how long of Human history have we been building houses and driving cars? for a very short time compared to how long our species has been around.

Like Humans, Dolphins are a product of their enviroment, to survive they don't need manipulators (hands). However Dolphins have developed sophisticated brains that allow them to share many of the traits that Humans do in terms of complex behavior (including some of the less savory ones, like Rape gangs). Personally I would rather err on the side of calling a Dolphin a person then not.

The animal group that you belong to and the tools that you use should not be the measure of who should and should not be a person.


[edit on 4-1-2010 by Helmkat]

reply to post by Mythtified


I'd like to point out one thing. If this is true, it officially disproves that intelligent aliens have to look human. Thus the astounding vast numbers of humanoid "contacts" and only be viewed as not true. After all, if life on Earth can generate intelligent species so anatomically different from humans, how on earth can the vast diversity of planets with life on them ever hope to generate anything human-like?

Told you so, so many times.


Anywho, I really don't care much for these maters. My rule is this. If you can imagine a heaven, you have a soul. If you have a soul, your species should be protected from conception to natural death. Make a sign language. Then ask the dolphin about what happens after death. If it believes in an after life, it has a soul.

My opinion is that there is a small, but ever so hard border to cross between intelligence and humanity. You can be smarter than man, but not worthy of life. Because unless you can imagine and innovate, you're an animal. And by innovation, I mean they have to have developed cultural identities and develop tools, and upgrade those tools. Neanderthals and apes have used the same tools all their species history. Only until seeing man did they innovate and change. Thus, the simple fact is that until I see a dolphin developing some kind of equivalent of this procedure, they are still animals. That's the border. Innovation and imagination.

Personally I am not above some animals having souls. But the more simplified fact is this. Humans have existed, in their modern from, for around 20,000 years (that being the most recent tweek in anatomy) In that time, we've become who we are. No other species have even made efforts of this. The fact that we observe animals using tools only after we've done it, and all of Earth's history has nothing else gives rise to speculation of simply observed knowledge, not innovation and imagination. To my own beliefs, dolphins and crows are the only species close enough to becoming like us. A crow can innovate too, so it shows possible qualities of a soul. Dolphins I will admit I do not know so much. If I had to bet who is more worthy, I would say crows.

Originally posted by SuperSlovak
Can a dolphin build a house? Can a dolphin drive a car? NO
I don't know how a fish can be intelligent.

Man had always assumed that he was more intelligent than dolphins because he had achieved so much... the wheel, New York, wars, and so on, whilst all the dolphins had ever done was muck about in the water having a good time. But conversely the dolphins believed themselves to be more intelligent than man for precisely the same reasons. - Douglas Adams

nuff said.

Originally posted by SuperSlovak
Can a dolphin build a house? Can a dolphin drive a car? NO
I don't know how a fish can be intelligent.

It's a mammal.

Also cuddle fish are as smart as dogs. Though they're not fish, they're more related then other species.

[edit on 4-1-2010 by Gorman91]

Dolphins are loveable and wonderful creatures. They seem to be capable of feeling empathy and compassion. Think they "know", who's the weak and the strong, among other sea creatures and humans.

How can one not love dolphins. I like to think, they're gift for humans, and they should be treated as oneself, would like to be treated.

I'm subjective in opinion and it even hurts me to kill a spider. So i use a spider catcher

[edit on 4-1-2010 by flymetothemoon]

News Flash



Dolphins to run NWO as most of the corrupted officials are hosted over board do to running past best before date on the sides of there heads.

News update at Dolphin news 11.30 pm

That would work, I would take a Dolphin any day!

reply to post by flymetothemoon


Jigsaw still killed his subjects if they died in his traps :p

Yea, dolphins do seem to be just such a paradox and gift. You would never suspect such a loyal and kind friend in the savage seas. It's funny. They're carnivorous, and feel nothing eating sea creatures, but for all intensive purposes, it's like they simply won't hurt humans unless forced to protect themselves or agitated. Or, like humans, there's just one loony out there. It goes against natural order and evolution to have such a species. A gift indeed.

reply to post by LordBucket
[more

"Stupid" humans are locked up around the world and most of the time living in poverty.

Survival of the fit is no longer classed solely on physical traits but now intelligence (brain powah!).

I do not know about classifying them as a person...or non human person whatever crap, but the smarter someone/something is, the more respect I, and by the looks of it others, give to them.