The Illustrated History of MJ-12

Gazrok, you rock! (yes I know, that was too easy) Superb post.

On subject, there is a point that always interested me, but I've never been able to put things together there...

For those with access to RATS, this thread about USAF Sgt Richard Doty explains a bit more about the guy.

Well, I have the feeling that this guy could be linked to a lot of it, much more than what seems obvious... Yes, it's only a feeling, but some things are too well together.

First of all, it is about the period of time when Doty was heavily involved in mis/disinformation campaigns that those documents about the MJ-12 have appeared. One has to wonder why a man like Doty would have any intersted in letting the MJ-12 thing getting revealed. Actually I think it was incredibly handy for him to let this out at the time being. Particularly, mid 80's was a period of interest in UFO's and aliens.

But what is even more interesting, is that the letter alleged to have been signed by Truman himself, that is the setting stone of MJ-12 has been heavily debunked, and a lot must agree now that indeed the signature at its bottom is totally identical to another one, found on a document totally unrelated to UFO's.

This leads me to believe that the AFOSI, back then in the 80's, had a certain interested in letting the MJ12 being known, but somehow they had to either link it to a then dead former president (to avoid someone else still alive maybe) or fabricate its creation at another convenient time.

As a matter of fact, the nuclear branch of research and intelligence is probably one of the most protected, and it is interesting to notice how UFO's and nuclear matter have often been linked, would it be only by the persons involved.

Where am I going with all this? It seems a long way, but... So, my feeling is that the AFOSI and/or the CIA had a certain interest in letting some info out, probably because they were starting to feel a certain level of "disclosure". The Roswell story had just been republicised (from memory in 1978?), and the general public was interested in those aliens & their crafts. By diverting the attention of researchers into a forged or at least altered subject (i.e. the MJ12) they were in a position to control what they were about to "give out" or rather "let out". The episode of Linda M. Howe with Doty is one perfect example of how they could manipulate people.

But why? Most of the initial people of the so called MJ12, if true, were dead, and mid 80's has seen a lot of budget restrictions. Although Ronald Reagan was somehow interested in UFO's and stuff, it is also known that even the president himself doesn't know of all the black projects, of the levels involved and of all the people involved.

To have a way to continue their activities as they would see fit, there was a necessity to "be threatened". I have then the feeling that Doty could have been charged by his superiors (and he could well have been just a peon) to reveal a distorted face of the MJ12 in order to reinforce the necessity to protect it. By doing so, it was then possible for the AFOSI to continue working while diverting the attention of the public, or at least the researchers, on a few faked documents.

Of course there are and will always be people to look into it a bit more, and it is very probable that the whole story has a great deal of reality. There have been a number of documents that are very much likely real, and as Gazrok effort shows, the whole story links, for the major part at least.

To what extent the CIA, the AFOSI and who knows who were involved in this, I don't know. I have not been able to piece it all together. The involvement of the CIA in the whole UFO's chapter is far from a secret, although they would deny most of it (look for Gerald K. Haines article on the subject, i can't find it online now, but it is referenced in many other publications, and even on the CIA website page related to some UFO's publications!).

There are many names that appear in many places... How exactly are they all linked is the key to understanding it.

Posting this reply to add a link to this Word document. Long read, but well worth it.

reply to post by zarp3333


Are you referring to the book "Psychic Warrior."

Awesome and thank you

It is great to be able to put the faces to the names and see what branch they were in and what areas they were dealing with at the time the group was formed.

They are still out there, under our feet and - way way out there.

Presently, I am sure they have way more than just a couple of reverse-engineered crafts.

Future/Time capability

Transporting - and not travel isolated to just this world

The "real" space program is being funded quite well right now I am sure, and since we have no oversite to where current funds are going, they must be speeding things up for a reason.

Someone, and I am sure it is a lot of them have a way out so to speak when the intentional "crap" hits the fan.

You and I will be burning and still asking questions

reply to post by Gazrok


Can anyone exlain the following:
1. in the linked "burned" document it is referring to "lancer"---President Kennedy -- asking questions.
2. In the same document there is a section for "freedom of information"
3. The FOI law was not enacted until 1966; Kennedy had been several years dead by then.

reply to post by SuperSlovak


Bill Cooper Exposed MJ-12 originally as a UFO and Alien Technology and later recounted sayng, as I now believe, that it was a cover for the formation of world government which included the discredting of the fact that UFOs were manmade. All kinds of documents were "leaked to select individuals in the Intelligence Agencies so that some WOULD go public, which is predictable, All of the Military, Intelligence and Political members of MJ-12 were and are freemasons, rosi cruci, skull and bones, scroll and key, jesuit, knight of malta , ect. ect.

note: while the UFO theories are mainly unsettled and many millions of people have invested billions of man hours toward research into this area of mystery I can prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that every one of those men in MJ-12 worked together to promote World Government.
Makes sense to tie them into a fringe study such as ETs which is very difficult to prove so that when the real story of how they were planning a world government and continuation of the great work no one would even take time to listen.

I do applaud your piece though I believe we have been subjected to a slieght of hand/misdirection tactic here.

Originally posted by piddles

Originally posted by SuperSlovak
what's a anti UFO researcher doing on a UFO investigation team?

making sure what they see is a UFO, not a bunch of crap.


pardon me for saying this but um..


duh.

He may, I won't.

1. He may not really be an "anti" but pro-ufo in disguise as a debunker.
2. He may be there as a spy
3. He may be there since he will be the hardest to convince and to keep others objective (your pick)
4. He may have switched sides

So there could be many reasons for this but I think the question posed was rhetorical anyway so your unwarranted rudeness is "duh" inappropriate, unwelcome, not pardoned. Sorry. If I have to be civil everyone does!

Gazrock; While I choose not to get involved directly in the question of wether these "documents" are authentic or not, I will give what I believe to be a "qualified expert's" opinion on them (documents) as follows:
1. Overall they appear entirely consistant with such other documents known to be authentic from that time period.
2. The "style", language and type-font are correct for the time period of each individual document.
3. I know from my own personal experience as an AP-SP, that there was and continues to be an animosity between the FBI and the CIA-NSA.
4. There were/are documented (mostly still classified) incidents of UFO overflights of our military bases. Especilly our Nuclear Bases.

In reference; my background was in USAFSS (Military Component of NSA) from early 1958 until 1964 as an AP-SP. During that time period I held a top-secret, codeword clearance.
In my opinion, Most, if not all, of these documents are authentic and purport to real events as listed.

Keep Up The Good Work
USAFSS-AP.SP

reply to post by downisreallyup


Your words echo my thoughts exactly regarding government thinking and clandestine methods.

I mean, we're taking the FBI's word for it now? All of a sudden we trust what they have to say?
Only when it suits the doubters it seems.

I don't necessarily think all of these documents are real, but I can't totally rule out the possibility that some may be. To dismiss this out of hand based on the FBI's conclusion would be foolish. C'mon, if they new the documents were authentic do you honestly think they're going to admit it? This is very sensitive material we're talking about, material that, if genuine would surely still be classified.

I can't believe I have to ask this question on a conspiracy website.

Originally posted by SoundTheory
reply to post by SuperSlovak

 

Bill Cooper Exposed MJ-12 originally as a UFO and Alien Technology and later recounted sayng, as I now believe, that it was a cover for the formation of world government which included the discredting of the fact that UFOs were manmade.

Dude, Bill Cooper didn't expose jack. He was a liar and stole his info from others.

Anyways here's Stan Friedman's post from a few years ago about Menzel and MJ-12




Donald Menzel

I discussed my findings about Menzel in an article in International UFO Reporter (1988), and in a Chapter in my book TOP SECRET/MAJIC (1996)and in my 108 page "Final Report on Operation Majestic 12" (1990). I believe you have the sequence wrong. He was involved from the beginning (1947), had written science fiction and popular science articles, was the best qualified to debunk UFOs especially after the huge numberof sightings in 1952. starting years after the advent of MJ-12. I was truly shocked when I discovered in his papers at the Harvard Archives in 1986,( which I needed written permission from 3 different people to see)that he had a longer continuous association with the NSA and its Navy predecessor than anybody,that he did classified work for 30 different compnies, had a TOP SECRET Ultra clearance with the CIA etc etc. he was close to Vannevar Bush and lloyd Berkner, knew Bronk quite well etc. He was the best equipped of the 12 from both an astronomoical point of view and a debunking view. The EBD, CT, and TF memos are genuine as I note in two different articles on my website. There have been other phony documents put forth especially via Tim Cooper.




[edit on 2-1-2010 by Fist_Of_The_North_Star]

[edit on 2-1-2010 by Fist_Of_The_North_Star]

MJ-12, Magic 12, Majic or Majestic 12, I don't remember exactly was called is mentioned in the movie "Tora, Tora, Tora" which was made in 1970 and depicted both stories of the build up to Pearl Harbor.

Tora, Tora, Tora on Wiki

This movie has been cited as historically accurate and the naval intelligence office had a locked cabinet that held the names of the twelve apostles. This would have been 1941 and prior to any alleged UFO crashes in 1942 (Los Angeles) and 1947 (Roswell), so has anyone come across any documents that mention MJ-12, Majic-12, etc. prior to WWII?

I appears that Majic-12 may have been a top secret group to receive very sensitive intelligence decoded prior to WWII, if this part of the movie is accurate.

I am not sure that the documents are real, unless as has been suggested that a forensic study is performed on the documents by a qualified expert.

The reference in the movie and subsequent declassified documents before 1941 could prove the existence of the group and it could also have been the inspiration for the alleged hoax!

Very nice post, a subject well worth the debate, if nothing else, if true, its really mind blowing! IMHO

[edit on 1/2/10 by mel1962]

Originally posted by USAFSS-SP
Gazrock; While I choose not to get involved directly in the question of wether these "documents" are authentic or not, I will give what I believe to be a "qualified expert's" opinion on them (documents) as follows:
1. Overall they appear entirely consistant with such other documents known to be authentic from that time period.
2. The "style", language and type-font are correct for the time period of each individual document.
3. I know from my own personal experience as an AP-SP, that there was and continues to be an animosity between the FBI and the CIA-NSA.
4. There were/are documented (mostly still classified) incidents of UFO overflights of our military bases. Especilly our Nuclear Bases.

In reference; my background was in USAFSS (Military Component of NSA) from early 1958 until 1964 as an AP-SP. During that time period I held a top-secret, codeword clearance.
In my opinion, Most, if not all, of these documents are authentic and purport to real events as listed.

Keep Up The Good Work
USAFSS-AP.SP

I was not in the same field as you were, but when I looked at the documents I came to the same conclusions. However, my main reasoning of why they are real, particularly the ones claimed to be "hoaxes" by the FBI, is for the reasons I mentioned above. It occurred to me that when a TOP SECRET document becomes compromised, the only choice you have to mitigate the damage is to claim it is not real.

Do you have any information on that assumption? What do the manuals say is SOP for handling compromised documents, especially if they leaked to a wide audience like the Internet?

Has the FBI ever released the methods and findings on how they concluded some of the MJ-12 documents are fakes? I would be interested to know the forensic process that was used, the tracing of the history of the documents and who and where they came from. If it is a hoax then it should be fairly simple to find the ones who perpetrated it. I would imagine the FBI didn't just come out and say "Oh yeah, it's a hoax, case closed" There must have been some kind of press release or something...

Originally posted by Jocko Flocko
Has the FBI ever released the methods and findings on how they concluded some of the MJ-12 documents are fakes? I would be interested to know the forensic process that was used, the tracing of the history of the documents and who and where they came from. If it is a hoax then it should be fairly simple to find the ones who perpetrated it. I would imagine the FBI didn't just come out and say "Oh yeah, it's a hoax, case closed" There must have been some kind of press release or something...

You are totally missing the point here. Because these documents are classified as TOP SECRET you can NOT depend on anything the FBI says. What you should instead be asking is "how does the government handle any top secret document that is leaked to the public?" People seem to think that just because a classified document is leaked that all of a sudden the government says "Oh well, the document is leaked, so now I guess we just have to admit everything it says and tell the truth about it." Nothing could be further from the truth.

Reply To "downisreallyup"
Yes, when a security breach occurs the sop is to deny (mostly for the publics consumption), while at the same time "re-classifing" the compromised material. This is usually accomplished by retaining the classification level (secret, top secret) while "protecting" the material under another code-word. As an example: Material classified "Top Secret-Bright" has been compromised, after a misleading statement is issued to the media-public, the "material" is re-classified under "Top Secret-Arrow".

While this re-classification, after the "deny" statement, seems (and is) self-serving, it does give the compromised material renewed security by virtue of the fact that this particular material is not available to persons UNLESS they possess a "Top Secret-Arrow" security clearance.

Therefore in the example above, a search for these compromised materials under "Top Secret-Bright" Documents would find nothing. However a search for the same materials under "Top Secret-Arrow" would produce the entire materials. In my opinion this is what happend when a request for these (MAJIC-12) Documents were sought from the FBI.

The FBI should/does know how "the system" works, their directives were/are to be honest about their efforts, but to disclose as little as required and to circumvent FOI requests to the best of their ability.

Special Note: The "code-words" Bright and Arrow as used in the example above , were to the best of my knowledge NOT USED by the USAFSS, NSA, FBI, United States Armed Forces or The United States of America during my military service.

Keep Up The Good Work,
USAFSS-SP

But what is even more interesting, is that the letter alleged to have been signed by Truman himself, that is the setting stone of MJ-12 has been heavily debunked, and a lot must agree now that indeed the signature at its bottom is totally identical to another one, found on a document totally unrelated to UFO's.

I remember that the research team did have some statements on this, I'll have to go back through it to see the details...just a busy week for me.

Again though, my original intent wasn't so much about verifying the documents, as it was to say:

If we recovered a crash, someone had to keep the secret and study it. Who would have been assembled to do so, and who would have been in positions to keep the secret. Regardless of what you think of the docs, these men would have been my choices in doing so, and have documented, close-working relationships with one another. So, to believe it to be a complete fabrication, you'd have to concede that any perpetrating a hoax must have done extensive research for no gain, and have known about units (i.e. like the IPU) that were not common knowledge, or even identified in public information. That's an incredible coincidence to concede.

While there is certainly some disinfo going on (there was at least a couple of examples of documents that later appeared via FOIA, that showed only minor alterations, but still on the alien subject, etc.), this also means that those hoaxing a document had 1) access to the original at some time, and 2) had some goal in making the changes made.

As I said (and Doty is included here), anything touched by the Aviary is certainly suspect, as there is some known disinfo attempts going on there, but my goal was to provide a better picture of who may have been involved in this kind of coverup.

reply to post by Gazrok


I just took the time to read the Twining Report.
It seems to have some bogus numbers thrown in there.
The basics sound like the Bob Lazar report.
Top Section - Flight Deck - 2 Pilots
Middle Section - Engineering Deck - 2 Engineers
Bottom Section - Propulsion Deck - 3 rotating barrels that are
120 degrees apart - i think these are the caterpillar drives
--------------------------------------------------------------
I'm curious about the life support system. I guess we will have
to wait for disclosure.

Originally posted by Gazrok

But what is even more interesting, is that the letter alleged to have been signed by Truman himself, that is the setting stone of MJ-12 has been heavily debunked, and a lot must agree now that indeed the signature at its bottom is totally identical to another one, found on a document totally unrelated to UFO's.

I remember that the research team did have some statements on this, I'll have to go back through it to see the details...just a busy week for me.

There was and I think you would be right to post a conclusion here, as much work has gone into showing that the signature was not absolutely identical in size.

That was then counter refuted by the argument that the size changes were down to photocopying or reproduction error. An absurd argument as ultimately this could be extrapolated to well yes, the signature is totally different, so obviously not Truman's.

Ultimately it was shown that there was enough of a discrepancy on the signature for an expert to declare that it was entirely possible it was genuine - I think Friedman's analysis alludes to this and apologies I don't have the time to link or quote.

Either way, the info in the OP whilst nothing new, originally presented in this timeline summary at least indicates enough documentation exists for a single document or signature not to have a straw man effect.

Edited to say S & F, great work, this is why I for one visit ATS.

[edit on 3-1-2010 by chunder]

Originally posted by Springer
I'll say it again, it is my belief that when one document in a set is proven a hoax the rest of them are most likely hoaxes too. Unfortunately that is only my belief and I can't prove it.

Fair enough but we are not really talking about a "set" of totally related documents in this case, there are multiple sources and cross corroboration.

Even so, to ignore everything because of a proven hoax simply surrenders to the disinformation strategy of plausible deniability.

In my own personal view the "overall picture" painted nicely by the timeline exists outside any document that may be hoaxed. AFOSI in the 80's in this case have obviously muddied the waters, but they can't erase that which had already leaked or been declassified.

With these documents, has a time-line been established with them in Chronological order ? Are they all from the same period, or over a span of many years during various stages of the "group"?