Nazis left Dutch gays untouched, says historian

Regenstorm... love your denglish. Learn german or let it be. I´ll never get why people from "victim-countries" often try to defend Hitler. Do that in germany, go to jail.

Originally posted by euleberlin
Regenstorm...

love your denglish. Learn german or let it be. I´ll never get why people from "victim-countries" often try to defend Hitler. Do that in germany, go to jail.

Because most Germans, including you are way too brainwashed to consider another truth than that one you were thought in school. Perhaps you should look abroad and look what other history books have to say.
You Germans tend to forget that all your history books are written under supervision of the allied forces. everything that doesn't fit in their story is Nazi Propaganda or Extreme Right.
The racial issue wasn't a big thing during the war, there were other reasons for the war. Racism was normal at that time, also in the USA. Only at the end of the war there were some questionable witnesses that claimed that there were extermination-camps.

Regenstorm

It is very difficult to change ones World View after it has been shaped for any length of time. Especially for those below 30 yrs. old. With time as life experiences are compared to "excepted truths" is there a CHANCE that something may change. This is not guaranteed to happen.

I read you View Point on this thread as being "What we have been told is not not the FULL story" and NOT "Hitler and Nazis were great guys".

Keep Teaching because you are doing a fine job.

Many nations "shape" their history. Does anyone seriously think that it would be otherwise ?

www.nybooks.com...

[edit on 24-12-2009 by shakespear1]

I can’t believe what i am seeing... Regenstorm if you are not a Nazi then it’s obvious that you are a Nazi sympathiser... disgusting!!!

Only at the end of the war there were some questionable witnesses that claimed that there were extermination-camps.

Vile disgusting propaganda... I KNOW people who witnessed it with their own eyes!!!

I am really struggling to contain my anger and remain civil!

One of my best friends Grandmother was a victim of the Nazis... she lost over half her family in the "labour" camps. Nazi brutality and mass murder is well documented and over the years Millions of people have give first hand testaments to this.

You dismiss is with the type of arrogance that only a deranged mind is capable of!

shakespear1

I read you View Point on this thread as being "What we have been told is not not the FULL story" and NOT "Hitler and Nazis were great guys".

Keep Teaching because you are doing a fine job.

Only for someone who is gullible and relies on the internet for their education!!!

People do not believe this crap... Go out and try to meet people from that generation while you can... talk to them... especially those from the community’s who suffered. I was lucky enough to meet my friends grandmother... she showed me her tattoo... she told me her story... i witnessed her tears.


This thread is garbage


[edit on 24-12-2009 by Muckster]

Originally posted by Regenstorm

It didn't come as a surprise to me. This article is one of many that shed another light on the Nazi Era. I think that it would contribute a lot to ATS if more people revised their perception of World War 2.
Every story has 2 or more sides.
If you want to liberate the USA from the NWO, you first should liberate your mind!
Here's an example why!

(click to open player in new window)

www.nrc.nl
(visit the link for the full news article)

[edit on 23-12-2009 by Regenstorm]

The other day i had this discussion with my father about the employment and the economy during ww2 in the Netherlands, the economy actually grew, and people got a job in infrastructure projects..They may treated us better then people in Poland or Romania...But really that doesnt make up what the Nazi's did with Rotterdam and all the jews, resistance and families, not to mention the hunger winter, which was the most terrible period...

[edit on 24-12-2009 by Foppezao]

Only at the end of the war there were some questionable witnesses that claimed that there were extermination-camps.

Missed this one. Shame on Me

I have my own relative who were "IN" the camps Nazi camps, otherwise known as Polish Death Camps in Western Media (see anything in that wording). Some were sent to Siberia by the US/British ally , the Soviets. And one who was fighting in England and then was told to leave England even though they knew what was waiting for them there (Communist gov. and Uncle Joe). So I have my own mini-database on this period.

Here is some interesting information for all.

Cossacks

On 1 June 1945, the British placed 32,000 Cossacks (with their women and children) into trains and trucks, and delivered them to the Red Army for repatriation to the USSR;[citation needed] like repatriations occurred that year in the American occupation zones in Austria and Germany. Most Cossacks were sent to labour camps in far northern Russia and in Siberia, most died; however, some escaped, and others lived until Nikita Khruschev’s amnesty in the course of de-Stalinizing the USSR, (see below). In total, some two million people were repatriated to the USSR at the end of the Second World War,[10] but historians calculate that the number of repatriated Cossacks is 45,000-50,000; others calculate (without consensus) some 15,000–150,000.

Wiki is a bit kind on this one.

Cossacks 2

History is deep and not everyone is willing or ready to go that deep.

As to what people can and can not be said, well that is a slippery slope.



[edit on 24-12-2009 by shakespear1]

Well I find that this thread is educating me. I just did a little digging which without the Internet would be next to IMPOSSIBLE. Here is what I found

Norman Finkelstein

I know. I am being selective in what I found. However consider this part in the above link

Finkelstein also had his supporters however. Raul Hilberg, widely regarded during his lifetime as a leading expert among Holocaust researchers,[22] said the book expressed views Hilberg himself subscribed to in substance, in that he too found the exploitation of the Holocaust, in the manner Finkelstein describes, 'detestable.' Asked on another occasion if Finkelstein's analysis might play into the hands of neo-Nazis for antisemitic purposes, Hilberg replied: 'Well, even if they do use it in that fashion, I'm afraid that when it comes to the truth, it has to be said openly, without regard to any consequences that would be undesirable, embarrassing.'[23]

[edit on 24-12-2009 by shakespear1]

media.abovetopsecret.com...

This is a real recording from Adolph Hitlers official knife makers grandson.. It was taken right after the Nazi terror bust Belgium.. the first guy is Israeli mossad cia operative talking about the al qaeda message the days are pregnant.
Instead of thank you It seems it was a false flag operation and I got in the way cause steve ahlberg head of special warfare for the navy his people sure make sure I have no way to save myself from MRSA>> So since I have no medicine it really could be a false flag terror attack that would mean steve ahlberg is a big guy for \the fourth Reich....
the true story of the war on terror al qaeda message the days are pregnant.

[edit on 24-12-2009 by zeuseadam]

Originally posted by shakespear1

Only at the end of the war there were some questionable witnesses that claimed that there were extermination-camps.

Missed this one. Shame on Me

I have my own relative who were "IN" the camps Nazi camps, otherwise known as Polish Death Camps in Western Media (see anything in that wording). Some were sent to Siberia by the US/British ally , the Soviets. And one who was fighting in England and then was told to leave England even though they knew what was waiting for them there (Communist gov. and Uncle Joe). So I have my own mini-database on this period.

Here is some interesting information for all.

Cossacks

On 1 June 1945, the British placed 32,000 Cossacks (with their women and children) into trains and trucks, and delivered them to the Red Army for repatriation to the USSR;[citation needed] like repatriations occurred that year in the American occupation zones in Austria and Germany. Most Cossacks were sent to labour camps in far northern Russia and in Siberia, most died; however, some escaped, and others lived until Nikita Khruschev’s amnesty in the course of de-Stalinizing the USSR, (see below). In total, some two million people were repatriated to the USSR at the end of the Second World War,[10] but historians calculate that the number of repatriated Cossacks is 45,000-50,000; others calculate (without consensus) some 15,000–150,000.

Wiki is a bit kind on this one.

Cossacks 2

History is deep and not everyone is willing or ready to go that deep.

As to what people can and can not be said, well that is a slippery slope.



[edit on 24-12-2009 by shakespear1]

Regarding the Cossacks...

I will NEVER deny that this was a disgusting thing to happen... I will NEVER try to make excuses for packing woman and children onto trains and sending them off to almost certain death. I will NEVER deny that this event happened... or claim that it was exaggerated by a "few dubious witnesses"

That is the difference between people like me and Nazi sympathisers.... Nazi sympathisers will deny, justify and make excuses... even in the face of overwhelming evidence!

However, this thread was never about what the Russians did to the Cossacks... nor was it about the British who placed them on trains. That’s probably worthy of an entire thread to itself.
This thread was started as a way of saying “look... the Nazis weren’t so bad were they” This is something i completely disagree with!

You cannot justify an evil event by just pointing at another one... it’s just not right!!!

“look... the Nazis weren’t so bad were they”

Well I hope I am not coming across as saying this. What I hope I am saying here is that

"People were fooled in the past to follow wicked ideologies and people continue to be fooled today to follow wicked ideologies"

I was just trying to expand the boundaries of perception regarding "impressions" that are formed in peoples minds about different subjects.

I frequently hear in Poland see Russia bashing. Yes, they were not nice/brutal/imperialistic but ones need to take a more balanced view.

Where did the Russians start? Csar, his elite and the kulaks. Majority being the kulaks. Csar is brought down, new system in place and the kulaks finally get freed, get educated and are ready to do anything for the new government.

Gov. tells them the evil Poles are the threat to them (well are told anything West of them is evil) and off they go doing bad things when told to. Poles think they "Hate Us, so we hate them in kind". Pole forget that in every Soviet unit there were guys with guns who would shoot anyone who turns back or goes against the new order. No choice but Fit In or Die and if lucky get sent to a work camp in Siberia. So you better act like the group.

The majority is always manipulated and the majority has no place to go. It must fit in or else what? The West will come to liberate them? I think not and if they did come I suspect they would not like the liberation in the end. We have plenty the 20th century examples.

Neo-Nazis play their own game and who knows who is pulling their strings. Neo-Nazis in Russia. I can see them existing in the West, but in Russia. They are puppets of the Kremlin to be used when necessary and nothing else.

[edit on 24-12-2009 by shakespear1]

I think the whole "Nazis killed gays" thing was just another way to make them look more evil than the other evil regimes. I'm not sticking up for Nazis, but there's a REASON they are picked on more than any of the other evil regimes of history.



[edit on 24-12-2009 by Donnie Darko]

Originally posted by shakespear1
Regenstorm

It is very difficult to change ones World View after it has been shaped for any length of time.

I read you View Point on this thread as being "What we have been told is not not the FULL story" and NOT "Hitler and Nazis were great guys".

Keep Teaching because you are doing a fine job.

Many nations "shape" their history. Does anyone seriously think that it would be otherwise ?

www.nybooks.com...

[edit on 24-12-2009 by shakespear1]

Thank you for this reply. It is indeed a story with multiple sides.
Where 2 fight, 2 are to blame.

What about how the Allies and Russia treated the Germans after the war? Why was the German population treated so bad? Was this their punishment for the holocaust, something which the Germans learned about only after the war, just like the rest of us.
Why did up to a million German soldiers die in the Rheinwiesenlager. Many starved to death because they didn't get water, food or shelter.
There are undisclosed mass graves of German soldiers.
This is something most Americans not aware of.
There are so many things that happened during the war that deserve a second investigation. Personally I always try to separate fact from fiction, which is in this case very difficult to discuss because it lies very sensitive.

reply to post by Foppezao


The bombing of Rotterdam was a mistake. The Germans themselves even tried to prevent the bombing as the planes approached by shooting flares up. The pilots however didn't see the flares and that's why Rotterdam was bombed.
You're from the Netherlands so that makes it easy for you to verify this.
Just watch episode one of "de oorlog" on Uitzending Gemist. The Venlo incident, which was the reason for Hitler to invade Holland is ignored in this documentary.

The documentary also brought to light that before the invasion, Holland was just like most other European countries except Germany, still suffering from the financial crisis that occurred in the late 20s. After Hitler successfully invaded Holland, unemployment virtually disappeared and the occupation was an golden era for businesses because of the many orders from Germany. The Germans paid everything, nothing was taken. It was only at the end of the war that Holland was stripped and looted because the Nazis needed all resources for their battle at the east front.

So, why do they learn you that the Nazi occupation only brought misery to the people of Holland?

Originally posted by Regenstorm

Why did up to a million German soldiers die in the Rheinwiesenlager.

There were not any where near that many- there were fewer german POW's that died in camps than any other group, including allies!


Percentage ofPOWs who died
Italian POWs held by Soviets 84.5%
Russian POWs held by Germans 57.5%
German POWs held by Soviets 35.8%
American POWs held by Japanese 33.0%
German POWs held by Eastern Europeans 32.9%
British POWs held by Japanese 24.8%
British POWs held by Germans 3.5%
German POWs held by French 2.58%
German POWs held by Americans 0.15%
German POWs held by British 0.03%

[edit on 25/12/09 by dereks]

reply to post by dereks

Official United States statistics were just over 3,000 deaths while the German villages nearby reported 4,537. R. J. Rummel calculates a most probable figure of 6,000.[6] Extremely high figures of up to a million are sometimes quoted by James Bacque but there has been no corroboration and such large numbers of dead bodies would have been discovered and reported in the meantime since the camps were located near highly populated areas in Germany.

en.wikipedia.org...

There are witnesses that can show the the sites where there are still unrevealed mass-graves. I personally did some research on the camps in Büderich and Rheinberg. Büderich hasn't changed very much, there are some spots from which I suspect that there could be mass graves. In Rheinberg a suburb has been build on the site.
The rumor is that many prisoners died before registration.
There are also a lot of coal mines in the direct area of the camps, abandoned mine shafts would also be a perfect place to bury them.

Originally posted by shakespear1

The majority is always manipulated and the majority has no place to go. It must fit in or else what?

Or else OVERTHROW a regime - by your own definition, implicitly a minority (and that's counting the armed forces at their disposition) - that demeans you as a person and reduces your life to mere existence - or that you simply do not like?





[edit on 25-12-2009 by Vanitas]

reply to post by shakespear1


I would like to hear more about your little database. But before that I would like you to do a little research on how prisons were like back in those days.
How were people treated in US or British jails? How were the circumstances there?

The majority fits in the middle of the Bell Curve. This is the segment that does not have time to sit on ATS and carry on intellectual discussions. They must get up and do those mundane tasks in life. They do not have time to speculate if they are manipulated or not. Even if they do, they still need to get on with Life. There Is No Time for anything else.

The majority will react if someone has the "power" to motivate them to act. This is not so simple and requires $$$$$$ or the Top 5 % ruling the crowd screws up so badly that the Life Experience of this majority becomes the message that change is required. But still the "beast" needs a head to act, and here manipulation CAN come into play.

Tienanmen Square, tanks came and all was done with. Czechoslovakia, tanks came and all was done. Top 5% did not lose control.

The Berlin Wall fell because the Life Experience in part mobilized the majority. They saw their Brothers on the other side living so well and were fed up. It wasn't a magic wan from the West that helped them to become free

Originally posted by Regenstorm
reply to post by shakespear1

 

I would like to hear more about your little database. But before that I would like you to do a little research on how prisons were like back in those days.
How were people treated in US or British jails? How were the circumstances there?

This is an fallacious appeal: The infamous "But everyone else is doing it, so it must be right!" argument.

There is no excuse for how the U.S. treated Japanese-Americans during WWII. None.
There is no excuse for how Nazi Germany treated the:
Jews
Gays
Gypsies
And pretty much everyone who did not fall lock step in with the policies of the Nazi Party.
The concentration camps were real. The records of what Doctor Mengele did with his experiments are real. The work labor camps were a gentle prison in comparison.

The fact is the Nazi party was after peace: A peace they defined as the Nazi Party ruling the world and killing anyone who was not like them. The implications they were altruistic and framed for horrible crimes is not only disproved by even the most casual review of history (I dare say there are hundreds of thousands of accounts of the atrocities or scars there of) but it is also so slanted and misguided as to be profoundly comical.

This is like saying Ghengis Khan was just a horse enthusiast.