Nazis left Dutch gays untouched, says historian

Nazis left Dutch gays untouched, says historian

www.nrc.nl

In fact, very few of those people were persecuted in the Netherlands, says historian Anna Tijsseling, who obtained her doctoral degree at Utrecht University on Wednesday for her thesis Guilty sex. Homosexual indecency offences around the German occupation. Actually, the legal prosecution of homosexuals was more intense before and immediately after the war, her research shows.

(visit the link for the full news article)

It didn't come as a surprise to me. This article is one of many that shed another light on the Nazi Era. I think that it would contribute a lot to ATS if more people revised their perception of World War 2.
Every story has 2 or more sides.
If you want to liberate the USA from the NWO, you first should liberate your mind!
Here's an example why!


www.nrc.nl
(visit the link for the full news article)

[edit on 23-12-2009 by Regenstorm]

What are you alluding to here?

Tell us more about your perspective of WWII.

Well we know where the Nazi's spent their weekends at

Originally posted by SteveR
What are you alluding to here?

Tell us more about your perspective of WWII.

You're asking for an answer that many members won't like.
What are the first images that come to your mind if you read or hear the words Hitler or Nazi? Probably these images:


!!!WARNING GRAPHIC IMAGES!!!

!!!WARNING GRAPHIC IMAGES!!!

Certainly not these:


Maybe this thread might interest you:
www.abovetopsecret.com...

reply to post by Regenstorm


Doesn't matter. I just wanted your views, since you were obviously trying to make a point with your opening post. I want to know what that is.

Originally posted by Regenstorm

Nazis left Dutch gays untouched, says historian

So?


Are you trying to say that this information somehow absolves the Nazis of their crimes against humanity?

Sure, they mass-executed millions of people (including tens of thousands of homosexuals from other parts of Europe). But I guess since they left some of the Dutch ones alone they're A-Ok?



What exactly is your point? If you're a Nazi sympathizer, I suggest you grow a pair and stand by your convictions. Dancing around the subject isn't going to viewed respectfully by many of the members here, I'm afraid.

From what I gather from the article is that the Nazis set the stage and created the laws for gay persecution. However, there were too many other pressing issues for the courts to deal with.
The Dutch population only seems to have co-operated in cases of pedophilia, which was illegal under Dutch law before the occupation.
Simply because the "de jure" Nazi laws were not practically enforceable in Holland does not change any of the other cases of gay persecution in the Nazi "Reich". Adult, consenting homosexuality is after all notoriously difficult to police without implicting heterosexual friends and family as informers (see the proposed new anti-gay laws in Uganda, which target heterosexuals who fail to report homosexuals to the police).
Of course no such study can claim to be exhaustive, since it was a time where people disappeared and were charged for various crimes of resistance.
The author does the gay movement a favor in that she descibes the homophobic persecution after the war, and how people died in silence or changed their reasons for being incarcerated. A huge question mark thus immediately rests over any methodology, since documents speak in unclear euphenisms, and interest in "gay holocaust" narrative only arose three decades after the war.
Nazi Europe was certainly not a paradise for "butch" homosexuals, as the revisionist "Pink Swastika" (Lively and Abrams) claims. While Scott Lively's arguments that all the top Nazis were flaming homosexuals are rubbished by the "Annotated Pink Swastika", I think the Nazis were willing to tolerate a degree of homosexuality while they had bigger fish to fry.

That's cool to know. It actually makes me think more highly of the Netherlands than it makes me think anything different about the Nazis themselves. The SS in particular were hell-bent on exterminating homosexuals and everyone else they deemed unfit.


Unquestionably, the Nazis still persecuted the hell out of homosexuals in Germany and other areas, as they did with Jews and Gypsies and others they were racist or bigoted against. The Nazis did innumerable incomprehensible things to living beings.

My Opa (Dutch Grandpa from my mothers side) was captured twice by the Germans in WWII and both times they let him go. I'm not sure of the circumstances with the first capture but the second time they were captured in France, taken to Paris and told to go home on a train. Go figure!

When my family tree (on my fathers side) was completed a few years ago we found out that two relatives were German soldiers in WWII. Kind of amazing that I had relatives fighting each other on the battlefield.

In any case, my mothers family left Holland due to the Nazi Occupation, my mother met my father in Australia and I was born, so I wouldn't be here if it wasn't for the war. Kind of strange to think about it in that way.. but I guess good things come out of war too.

IRM

Originally posted by SteveR
reply to post by Regenstorm

 

Doesn't matter. I just wanted your views, since you were obviously trying to make a point with your opening post. I want to know what that is.

That is not possible, there is no freedom of speech in this forum.
Ignorance at its finest!

Originally posted by Misoir
Well we know where the Nazi's spent their weekends at

I like this - nothing like levity where the nazi's are concerned!

2nd line

3rd line

reply to post by Regenstorm


So Naizs did not kill Dutch homosexuals and invested in architecture, healthy family values and building lots of tanks. What a great bunch of people.
Tell me - what they were doing in Holland in the first place? Or in Poland? Or in Czechoslovakia? Or in Denmark? Or in Norway? Or in Belgium? Or in Luxembourg? One giant happy trip to make world better and peaceful,ha...

Those guys together with other guys that did not kill Iranian rich dudes but invested heavily in architecture, healthy family values and building lots and lots of tanks (aka Soviet Union) started bloody war that devastated half of the world.

And this is before zooming in and discussing the gruesome details.

Originally posted by Regenstorm
That is not possible, there is no freedom of speech in this forum.
Ignorance at its finest!

In what way is it not possible? Do you think that if you are explicit in your views you will be penalised? By members or mods?

Either way, I have no idea of the point that you are making unless you make it.

I should imagine that any 'failure' to round up homosexuals in the Netherlands had more to do with logistics and priorities than on any complicit or non-complicit acceptance of homosexual practice. The RSHA and Gestapo had their hands full with partisan and resistance activities by that stage in the war. Plus the Nazis weren't opposed to all homosexuality, primarily they only rounded-up 'flamboyant' or 'effeminate' gays. If the homosexual population in Holland were persecuted before and after the war by their own governance, it can be assumed that most gays were 'underground' and did not fit the bill and were therefore hard to identify and round up.

[edit on 24-12-2009 by shamhat]

Originally posted by ZeroKnowledge
reply to post by Regenstorm

 

So Naizs did not kill Dutch homosexuals and invested in architecture, healthy family values and building lots of tanks. What a great bunch of people.
Tell me - what they were doing in Holland in the first place? Or in Poland? Or in Czechoslovakia? Or in Denmark? Or in Norway? Or in Belgium? Or in Luxembourg? One giant happy trip to make world better and peaceful,ha...

Well, your last sentence comes very close to the truth.
Why did Germany invade Holland?
I'm Dutch and I learned in school that on the 10th of may 1940 Germany invaded the neutral country Holland!
It was just part of Hitler's plan to concur the world. That's how our history books sell the story.
What thy always "forget" to mention is "the Venlo Incident"

The Venlo Incident in 1939 was a German Sicherheitsdienst (Security Service) engineered capture of two British SIS (Secret Intelligence Service) agents in the early months of World War II, on 9 November 1939. The Sicherheitsdienst was a sister agency of the better-known German Gestapo (German: Geheime Staatspolizei; the Secret State Police agency during 1933–1945 in Germany). The incident was used by the presiding German National Socialist German Workers' Party government (NSDAP - commonly referred to in English as the Nazi Party) for their propaganda purposes to link Great Britain to Georg Elser's failed assassination attempt of German Chancellor Adolf Hitler at the Burgerbraukeller two days before and to justify their later invasion of the Netherlands, a neutral country, on 10 May 1940.

Source

Here even Wikipedia is telling lies. Recently there was a documentary about the Venlo incident. The Dutch parliament was in the know of the British agents and even helped them to obtain their goal. So how can they claim that they were neutral if they are helping Britain which already had declared war on Germany at that time. Britain declared war on Germany on 3 September 1939, 6 days before the Venlo Incident.


And when and why did to start building tanks? Before or after the threats by Britain and France?

Originally posted by Regenstorm
Here even Wikipedia is telling lies. Recently there was a documentary about the Venlo incident. The Dutch parliament was in the know of the British agents and even helped them to obtain their goal. So how can they claim that they were neutral if they are helping Britain which already had declared war on Germany at that time. Britain declared war on Germany on 3 September 1939, 6 days before the Venlo Incident.

Paynes-Best and Stevens were working for British SIS with the knowledge of the government when they were kidnapped. They were charged with opening negotiations with the Germans towards a mutual peace. Depending upon whose version you read, the British 'claim' that the purpose was to 'trick' the Nazis and buy time.

[edit on 24-12-2009 by shamhat]

reply to post by Regenstorm


So what are you trying to show with that last video you posted? It's not a secret that Berlin was an impressive metropolis during the inter-war period, and a major European cultural city. The Nazis inherited a nice capital.

But the Nazis didn't build the Reichstag, Brandenburger Gate, Unter den Linden, the S-Bahn and the U-Bahn and all the nice things shown in that video.

Also, don't forget that it's a propaganda film, and it's SUPPOSED to only show the good things.

reply to post by Regenstorm


Ooooh, you can find excuse for anything. Giant evil Finland attacked Soviet Union and it had to defend itself from Finnish hordes,whole Dutch parliament apparently knew about top secret British plan and its members worked with 007s trying to kill Hitler, murderous Polish troops attacked German post out of the blue just for fun,endangered Baltic states needed protection from Soviet Union in order to remain independent and ctr and ctr.

Regenstorm

Thanks for the deeper view of the Nazi Days. That color video is an eye opener for me.

Anyone here with an open mind should ask themselves this question "What would you have been thinking living there and listening everyday to News and hearing Hitlers speeches?"

My bet is, "All is great and I hope I can get a job with the Nazi Party. Success is There". Few few would have understood what the problem with the picture was. Certainly few who were 30 and younger.

Good work and Happy Holidays and a Happy New Years to All.

Originally posted by ZeroKnowledge
reply to post by Regenstorm

 

Ooooh, you can find excuse for anything. Giant evil Finland attacked Soviet Union and it had to defend itself from Finnish hordes,whole Dutch parliament apparently knew about top secret British plan and its members worked with 007s trying to kill Hitler, murderous Polish troops attacked German post out of the blue just for fun,endangered Baltic states needed protection from Soviet Union in order to remain independent and ctr and ctr.

Maybe you should look a little further. Germany was forced into WW1 and the treaty of Versailles was the trigger for WW2.