Sacked for offering a prayer

Originally posted by SevenThunders
That's the price of practicing one's faith in demoralized fallen country like the UK. She should be completely unapologetic about it and sue her school district. After all a Muslim is compelled by his religion to convert by force. The UK should start getting used to the new techniques, whilst bashing christians for merely quietly praying for the suffering.

The UK has already chosen her future.

What the hell is a fallen country when it's at home then ?

Are you trying to imply that there is something wrong with a population that rejects superstitious biblical nonsense ?

A big chunk of the problems that the peoples of the UK have had to endure have been because of xtian drivel.

Get a grip religion, is naturally dying and I will be one of the first to break out the beer when it goes.

reply to post by moocowman


Yo,moocow! Would you rather live in a country dominated by christian
values?OR...Live in a country under sharia values? Islam is the fastest
growing religion in the world.Tell me Moo,whose religious influence are
you most afraid of?

Originally posted by MidnightDStroyer
Oh yes, there are Laws involved, Heretic.

Just to be clear, I meant that the teacher's right to free speech was not being infringed upon. She was complaining in the article I linked that HER free speech had been suppressed. With my statement about laws, I meant to say that no law was made that infringed upon her free speech.

Source

It's a sad situation that in today's society our freedom of speech has been suppressed

This victim mindset of a bully really makes me ill. Her repeated attempts to preach to the daughter in their HOME borders on bullying, IMO. Then when her fingers get smacked, she claims she's being oppressed. It's really quite typical of this situation.

Someone asked - What if I repeatedly said "Hail Satan" to your daughter when I was alone with her in your house tutoring her? What if I tried to tell her the glories of Satan?

I'd REALLY like to hear someone who is defending this woman answer that. But I don't expect to get a response...

[edit on 22-12-2009 by Benevolent Heretic]

reply to post by Benevolent Heretic


Here's a response:

Throughout the ages Jesus Christ has been heralded as the greatest minister, teacher and preacher who ever lived. During His ministry on the earth He healed the sick, gave sight to the blind, walked on water, turned water into wine, drove out demons, even brought the dead back to life. On the other hand, Satan is known as the serpent, as the father of lies, as the one who sets a snare for mankind.

The analogy here is LUDICROUS beyond words. It really doesn't deserve a response it is so ridiculous and obvious, but you said no one would respond, as though, as IF, your analogy was beyond reproach.

Just when I thought I'd "read" it all.

But I suppose you athiests have YOUR work to do just as we Christians have OURS.




[edit on 22-12-2009 by Bombeni]

reply to post by Benevolent Heretic


Where does it say she was in any way haranguing them?

[edit on 22-12-2009 by unicorn1]

"Nurses like Caroline do not have to set aside their faith, but personal beliefs and practices should be secondary to the needs and beliefs of the patient and the requirements of professional practice." www.telegraph.co.uk...

Emphasis mine.

I don't see how this is being unfair to the nurse.

On the surface this seems so harmless but obviously the woman/girl felt awkward enough to mention it. The idea of offering care through prayer is not the issue. The fact is it's not within their professional capacity to offer anything other than what they have been trained to do. kindness should be offered with discretion. You might think it kind to kiss or touch people but some would have issues with that and rightly so.

If this nurse were visiting clergy offering prayer and instruction that would be one thing. She was there to practice nursing. Religious matters should be left to those put in place to address the spiritual needs of patients. Most hospitals I'm aware of have services for patients so inclined.

The teacher/nurse overstepped their bounds of employment. Unless religion is directly tied to ones profession it's best to leave it off the job. Common sense tells us there's just some things we don't take to work out of respect for our job as well as others.

Originally posted by Bombeni
Throughout the ages Jesus Christ has been heralded as the greatest minister, teacher and preacher who ever lived. ...

This is all stuff YOU BELIEVE. It's not what everyone believes. Some believe JUST the opposite. I don't push my beliefs on people simply because I understand that they don't believe as I do. You cannot find a post of mine where I try to convince someone to be an atheist. I don't believe in that. I support freedom of religion and frown on ANYONE who pushes their beliefs on others.

But I suppose you athiests have YOUR work to do just as we Christians have OURS.

You are mistaken. I have no work to do regarding religion. I have NO interest in convincing you or anyone to believe as I do. I don't CARE what other people believe. I am responsible for ME and me only. And if you think you have some work to do by pushing your beliefs on other people, then you should expect some backlash. Just as they should expect backlash from trying to convince your children to hail Satan.

Thanks for trying to answer my question, but you didn't. Would it be OK if someone preached THEIR religion (no matter what it was) to your child when you weren't present?

reply to post by unicorn1


Read the follow up source that I posted in This Post.

reply to post by Benevolent Heretic


Even if I was an athiest, I am positive it would not offend me if a caring person prayed for my child's recovery. But if someone started hailing satan over my sick child, I'd call the cops.

Regardless of your beliefs, Jesus did complete the most phenomenal ministry in history. Not only that, he fulfilled all the prophecies of the prophets of the OT. Even this debate we are having right now is prophecy and you are playing a part in fulfulling Biblical prophecy. How do you liek that?

Originally posted by Bombeni
Even if I was an athiest, I am positive it would not offend me if a caring person prayed for my child's recovery.

It would not offend me either, but the story isn't about me and it isn't about you. It's about someone who WAS concerned about a teacher preaching to her child. She was concerned, she mentioned it to the teacher and the teacher refused to stop.

But if someone started hailing satan over my sick child, I'd call the cops.

And this is the difference between me and you. From your position as a believer, you state that even if you were an atheist, you wouldn't be offended by one religion (the one you happen to believe), but would call the cops about another. I, as an atheist, don't differentiate between the various religions and I am not offended by or afraid of any of them. They're all equally fantastical to me.

Regardless of your beliefs, Jesus did complete the most phenomenal ministry in history. Not only that, he fulfilled all the prophecies of the prophets of the OT. Even this debate we are having right now is prophecy and you are playing a part in fulfulling Biblical prophecy. How do you liek that?

How do I like that? That's all stuff that YOU BELIEVE, as I said before. I do not believe it, so it affects me not in the least. I neither like it nor dislike it. I am neutral on your beliefs.

reply to post by mamabeth


Are you serious? People at my old high school prayed in class, they brought bibles. Jewish kids wore their Stars of David and read the Torah. My cousins still go to the same school and they are all members of the Fellowship of Christian Athletes which is across the country in public schools.

Only Muslims get to pray in public schools... absolutely absurd.

---

The people in question did deserve some form of reprimand, maybe not being fired unless as BH mentioned the nurse was told to stop and didn't. I don't want someone praying over me, nor offering it, to be quite honestly. Why can't they just say, "I hope you feel better?" or "Get well soon!"

God doesn't need to come into it, there is no reason for it to. No more than I want a teacher going to my child (if I had one) and saying they were going to leave cupcakes under a tree for the little people to become happy and remove the curse of illness from my child.

It is pushing a religion in a way, because if it wasn't, there would be no need to include a God in it.

Isn't hope in itself a form of prayer that needs no mention of a specific deity?

[edit on 12/22/09 by niteboy82]

Well, I was in the ER this past week, and a young man about 20 years old who had been lying on a gurney in a hallway for six hours caught my attention. He told me he had a spot on his lung, and was waiting for results. I asked him where his family was, and he told me his step-dad had been by earlier. It was obvious he was all alone with this. I offered him all I had at hand, a newspaper I was taking to my husband, who was also a patient in the ER. He told me yes, he would like that. As I walked away, I told him I would keep him in my prayers. I had no idea if he would be offended or what. No matter, it is my job as a Christian to pray for people in need. One day all the agnostics and atheists will stand before the same Lord, Jesus Christ, that we Christians will answer to. They will know that many prayers were said on their behalf. Whatever the young man's beliefs, he thanked me. I have never been cursed nor threatened for offering a prayer for a person in need. It wouldn't stop me if they did. I am just serving my Master.

Who knows what the nurse or teacher did, really.

If they simply said a small prayer for the sick, I'm sure no one would care. Since it blew up and got on the news, I'm pretty sure the Nurse and the Teacher was "preaching". I'm sorry, but that's the truth and if they are really "preaching" to the sick, then it is not ok.

Half of my family are Buddhists. If my mom is on the death bed, she would not mind if the Nurse tending to her simply said a small prayer for her. She would flip out though, if the Nurse preached to her about God, Christianity, Heave&Hell, your soul belongs to God all that crap.

Honestly, you don't try to covert the almost dead or the sick into Christians. That's .... really hitting below the belt. I don't know, to me that's not right.

If that is really what happened of course, but since no one was present when this happened, we don't know.

Originally posted by Morningglory
Religious matters should be left to those put in place to address the spiritual needs of patients. Most hospitals I'm aware of have services for patients so inclined.

I think this is one of the other faults of organized religion...The false spreading of the belief that people actually need another human being to act as intermediary between God & themselves. That's just opening up a whole new brand of subjugation under the Church's organization. Even the basic tenants of the religion claim that "God is everywhere & in everything," so it means that God is also in every human heart...The Church can not preach this & still have any claim to "intercede" with God on anyone else's behalf...That's just another "social double-standard" at best & total hipocrisy at worst.

I agree that the nurse, in order to maintain an atmosphere of "professionalism," should have instead asked if the woman wanted to seek counseling from the hospital clergy...However, there's nothing in the article that indicates that the woman's reason for being in the hospital was serious enough to "professionally warrant" that kind of offer.

What doesn't really seem fair is that, in the medical professions, aren't these professionals supposed to have some sympathy or empathy for patients? Isn't that one of the reasons why some people enter the medical fields in the first place? Even though hospitals are really running a business, it's a business that's oriented on people...The medical profession can only take "professional detachment" so far before people start choosing another place to go. IMO, even a temporary suspension was a bit too far...At most, the nurse might have gotten a verbal notice to mention the hospital's clergy services instead of her own prayers & leave it at that.

In the case of that teacher though, she was asked repeatedly to stop, even though she was in the child's home. By continuing to preach & pray after that point, the teacher was violating the family's Right to Peaceful Enjoyment of their Home...She deserves to get slapped down for it. She does not have any moral or ethical justification for crying "I'm being victimized" for it.

Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic
With my statement about laws, I meant to say that no law was made that infringed upon her free speech.

Now that I fully understand what you meant, I agree...The teacher's Right to Free Speech & even Free Religion were not infringed because she was on someone else's private property at the time. The owners & dwellers on that private property have the Right to manage their household affairs.

Originally posted by niteboy82
The people in question did deserve some form of reprimand, maybe not being fired unless as BH mentioned the nurse was told to stop and didn't.

Just a slight mixup there...It was the nurse who did stop, the teacher who did not.

Originally posted by truthseeker84
Since it blew up and got on the news, I'm pretty sure the Nurse and the Teacher was "preaching". I'm sorry, but that's the truth and if they are really "preaching" to the sick, then it is not ok.

Actually, according to the sources provided, the nurse merely asked if the woman wanted a prayer & stopped when the offer was refused. The teacher, however, was in the child's home at the time & repeatedly asked to stop by the mother. Big difference between these two situations. I'm just to keep confusion down to a minimum here...Confusion isn't really adding any real contribution to the thread, ya' know.

[edit on 23-12-2009 by MidnightDStroyer]

reply to post by niteboy82


I graduated from a public school in 1973.School prayer was outlawed,by
the supreme court, in 1962.After that date,I don't remember seeing any
students with Bibles in their lockers!I only remember students reading
books such as catch22 and mash.

reply to post by mamabeth


Well, that may be the way things were done in your area of the country then, but I can assure you it isn't like that everywhere. I checked last night with cousins still in school and they have the Pledge, moment of silence (prayer), and there is still the Fellowship of Christian Athletes.

One of them is an extremely devout Catholic and actually says the rosary to herself during quiet time. So perhaps if you do ever need to put your kids in public school, you should considering moving them to Louisiana... everything else will be backwards, but....

---

As I said before, in my opinion "hope" is a prayer in its own form. There would be no need to inject a particular deity in the mix unless on some level that deity was being pushed on another as "the one."

Just sayin'. People tell me stuff like that all the time, I don't react rudely, but I do wonder why some bother to do so and continue while knowing full well that I'm not of that belief system. It doesn't anger me though, as much as I have no scientific proof sufficient for me to believe, I like to think the force of positive thought yields some benefit.

reply to post by niteboy82


I have been reading that some school districts allow students to pray
over a meal.The school teachers and other employees can't participate.
I have also found a few interesting things to ponder.
1.In NYC,muslims can pray in public schools,christians can't!
2.In 1998,2 california school districts,introduced New Age curricula
honoring Lucifer.
3.Tibetan monks conducted Tantric buddhist devotionals in public schools
in grand county Utah!
4.Muslims are allowed to worship in school during school hours.Christians
can only use the school facilities after school hours.

Originally posted by MidnightDStroyer
I'm just to keep confusion down to a minimum here...

I'm all about keeping the confusion down, too, so here is the original thread about the nurse, who apparently only asked her patient once and then let it drop:

www.abovetopsecret.com...

I haven't seen a source that says she had a habit of offering prayer to people who weren't welcoming it, and she has since been reinstated to her job, vowing not to change anything. This Source says there have been only 2 complaints.

And in my opinion, a nurse who has 2 complaints from different people for offering to pray for her patients is an entirely different situation than a teacher, who has been told to cease, continues to preach to a particular child.

Originally posted by novacs4me
Well, I was in the ER this past week, and a young man about 20 years old who had been lying on a gurney in a hallway for six hours caught my attention. He told me he had a spot on his lung, and was waiting for results. I asked him where his family was, and he told me his step-dad had been by earlier. It was obvious he was all alone with this. I offered him all I had at hand, a newspaper I was taking to my husband, who was also a patient in the ER. He told me yes, he would like that. As I walked away, I told him I would keep him in my prayers. I had no idea if he would be offended or what. No matter, it is my job as a Christian to pray for people in need. One day all the agnostics and atheists will stand before the same Lord, Jesus Christ, that we Christians will answer to. They will know that many prayers were said on their behalf. Whatever the young man's beliefs, he thanked me. I have never been cursed nor threatened for offering a prayer for a person in need. It wouldn't stop me if they did. I am just serving my Master.

Amen Sister!

Originally posted by MidnightDStroyer
However, there's nothing in the article that indicates that the woman's reason for being in the hospital was serious enough to "professionally warrant" that kind of offer.

The elderly who reside in assisted living facilities don't have to wait until death is at their door to request religious services. My husband transports a retired veteran from the VA nursing home to a local church every Sunday. This man prefers outside services complete with church & congregation. It's his weekly outing just because he is old doesn't mean he is left with few choices.

Don't get me wrong the nurses I've been in contact with are the most caring dedicated people I've met. They have offered me support & comfort through some bad times. They managed to do it without ever bringing religion or prayer into it. If a prayer was offered I would not have been offended but if she imposed on our family by coming in and forcing prayer when she felt the urge. I would expect her to leave if asked.

Imo nurses are already kind and sympathetic to patients. Their training includes bed side manner. If this nurse feels so strongly about care through prayer maybe it's time she take up that calling. She should offer her services in a missionary setting or in a hospital where religion is a vital part of the healing process. The difference would be in those kinds of facilities everyone is on the same page. In a public hospital there is too much diversity. First do no harm!

As far as the nurse's situation it might seem a bit harsh but I think it's because a patient brought up the matter and not a coworker. They had to look into it. She got her job back. I think the hospital just wanted to nip it in the bud before she got too carried away. I'm sorry but it was for the good of all involved. This hospital is not just about this nurse and her personal beliefs. It's a facility put in place to serve the needs of patients. The nurse is simply an employee.

edit for spelling.

[edit on 23-12-2009 by Morningglory]

Originally posted by mamabeth
I graduated from a public school in 1973.School prayer was outlawed,by the supreme court, in 1962.After that date,I don't remember seeing any students with Bibles in their lockers!I only remember students reading books such as catch22 and mash.

Well, the prayer-banning in public schools has been misunderstood by most people...The ban is against organized prayer, not individual, personal prayer. This is by Supreme Court ruling based on the 1st Amendment that says:

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

Of course, this ruling doesn't extend to schools sponsored & taught by churches because those aren't public schools. I think I can understand where there may be a point of contention with the nurse in the hospital though: Hospitals are corporate property & they can "set their own rules" just as legally as a homeowner can set their own "house rules." What makes it confusing is the question why hospitals would punish a nurse for offering a prayer even while, at the same time, they allow clergy to do the same thing. I dunno, maybe it's a question of "demarcation," in that the nurse was crossing some kind of "professional boundary" over the clergy...

Originally posted by mamabeth
reply to post by niteboy82

 

I have been reading that some school districts allow students to pray
over a meal.The school teachers and other employees can't participate.

As noted by the Supreme Court, this is allowable as long as the school faculty isn't participating or leading the prayer.

Originally posted by mamabeth
1.In NYC,muslims can pray in public schools,christians can't!

This is not allowable as it's denying the Christians of the 1st Amendment. That school is ripe for a class-action lawsuit.

Originally posted by mamabeth
2.In 1998,2 california school districts,introduced New Age curricula
honoring Lucifer.

This is allowable as long as it's a religion up for comparative study or analysis on religions, but not as any kind of promotion for actual worship.

Originally posted by mamabeth
3.Tibetan monks conducted Tantric buddhist devotionals in public schools
in grand county Utah!

This is illegal, as it's "respecting an establishment of religion" against the 1st Amendment.

Originally posted by mamabeth
4.Muslims are allowed to worship in school during school hours.Christians
can only use the school facilities after school hours.

This is not allowable as it's "respecting" one religion over another. Another school leaving itself open for class-action lawsuit.

But if anyone tries to get you into trouble for praying in school, tell them (hopefully with some politeness) that they can go suck a rotten egg...Er, ummm...Tell them about the Supreme Court ruling.