Why are there so many people obsessed with the Masons?

I just got off the phone with a dear old friend in Texas. There is no such thing happening. See, people have telephones and the "interwebs". Care to address that?

reply to post by Haydn_17

1.bp.blogspot.com/.../s400/Martial+Law.jpg

yes you are brain wash like mother and daddy are

Yes, I am brain wash. Is anybody here that is smarter than me (not a great leap) checking this IP address? Seems familiar, like and old friend in a new suit.

Originally posted by ProtoplasmicTraveler

Originally posted by Fitzgibbon
reply to post by Fitzgibbon
I don't. I try to correct those with honest misconceptions. However, if they're happier in the world of misconception who am I to interfere with it? I'll certainly discuss with one who has an open mind. But I won't waste my hours with one whose mind is resolutely and incorrectly closed.

Life's too short for that. Fair thee well, freight

Though it may be well intentioned this is fairly disingenuous because of its highly presumptive and incomplete nature.

Because Masonry is a Secret Society you are only free to discuss things with non-Masons to a point to which your mind is CLOSED towards divulging anything beyond that.

Nice try at twisting my words. My word not to divulge specific secrets concerning Masonry is mine alone. Clearly from the searchability of the ritual online, others haven't felt any compunction about breaking their word about the same matter. It's a test of character in that regard. However, when someone resolutely comes off with something so whacked against Masonry such that even fence-riding non-Masons go WTF, how is it that I'm supposed (in your humble opinion) to be the one with the closed mind for addressing it with certain exceptions?

Masons as a group here have demonstrated a greater willingness to consider negative assertions about Masonry by non-Masons (or reputed ex-Masons) than can be said about positive assertions by the anti-Masons.

THAT is the benchmark or an open or closed mind; not whether I can or will divulge specific secrets.

Originally posted by ProtoplasmicTraveler
Additionally it’s based on the assumption that you yourself know everything that there is to know about Masonry and its 33 courses and degrees of learning.

But the one's that typically come with the off-the-wall assertions have far less exposure or access than I do (and you don't know what degrees I have though for the sake of honesty, I'm a Master Mason). There's also the matter of the consistent and repeated (and I suspect wilful) misunderstanding of the nature degree structure in Masonry. It just seems inconceivable to the anti-Masonic mind that the 3rd degree is the highest. The York and Socttish Rites afford a more in-depth understanding of what's covered in the first three degrees but the aren't superior to the Master Mason's degree even if numerically they're higher. By anti-Masonic logic, 32 inches should be higher than 3 feet.

Wishing it doesn't make it so.

Originally posted by ProtoplasmicTraveler
There is a better chance than not YOU DON’T know everything about Masonry because of that or anything involved with the 34th, 35th, or 36th degrees of Masonry, which until you are promoted to the 34th degree you don’t even know exists, once again because Masonry is a Secret Society that keeps secrets from it’s own members which is why it has a Scientology like gradient learning path in degrees.

Things that make you go "Hmmmm!"

So, oh enlightened one, this being the case, enlighten the world in just how it is that you as a non (and clearly anti-) Mason are privy to such 'secrets' while Masons are not?

Originally posted by ProtoplasmicTraveler
What’s more NO MASON claims to know the precise origins of the Order so in reality you CAN’T PROVIDE any answer beyond which you are able to first have learned of yourself, and you are permitted to indulge.

And this has exactly what to do with the price of coffee?

Originally posted by ProtoplasmicTraveler
Which of course sets one up blithely to claim one is correct when the individual insisting others are ignorant are purposefully kept ignorant except what those IN THE KNOW want people NOT IN THE KNOW to know because it serves THOSE IN THE KNOW for those NOT IN THE KNOW to believe those suppositions.

So (if I parse your truly odd statement correctly) it better behoves some unknown, unidentified, übersecret Masonic overseers to use the rest of Masons to spread disinformation rather than just avoid attention in the first place.

Seems a tad counterproductive if flying below the public's radar is what you really want to accomplish.

Originally posted by ProtoplasmicTraveler
Whether those suppositions are actually rooted in fact is IMPOSSIBLE for someone to know who hasn’t personally climbed the entire Masonry ladder.

Notice a shortcoming in your assertion? A fly in the ointment? An elephant in the room? And of course, this presupposes the aforementioned übersecrets.

Originally posted by ProtoplasmicTraveler
Pretending otherwise for the sake of being amicable would in fact be CLOSED MINDED and INCORRECT.

No. To dismiss out-of-hand would be close-minded and incorrect. To accept without a shred of evidence would be foolish and likewise incorrect. To weigh it against one's own experiences and dismiss it for lack of evidence or support is open-minded and correct.

Originally posted by ProtoplasmicTraveler
The truth is you don’t have the answers, and that’s alright.

Who ever does? From the appearance of your worldview, there's always going to be some sort of elevated, übersecret cabal denying you......something. Whether it's knowledge, wisdom or a Playstation, they'll be there in your mind. Doesn't grant them corporality.

Originally posted by ProtoplasmicTraveler
Wanting people to accept circular closed logic as a substitute for truth is not something that would serve anyone Mason or non-Mason alike particularly well.

Speaking only for myself, I expect people to judge me by my words and deeds. I believe they present a clear picture. Masonry does the same. Wilful dissembling by anti-Masons about Masonry should be taken for everything that it's worth.

Originally posted by ProtoplasmicTraveler
Once again the people who keep secrets on purpose shouldn’t really get to call the people who aren’t keeping any crazy when the people who create that speculation through keeping secrets are unwilling and incapable of divulging the whole truth and nothing but the truth.

I see. You don't keep secrets at all? OK! Please post the numbers for an credit cards (include security codes and PINs) as well as all national identification information that you possess.

Originally posted by ProtoplasmicTraveler
In reality such people are just looking to turn open minds into closed minds with partial and incomplete answers.

Thanks!

Such people (as you put it) are attempting to correct wild and wooly disinformation put out by those with an agenda. I'm sorry this displeases you.

reply to post by maya2929


what language do you speak when you aren't trying to speak English? Perhaps we have been too harsh with you. You claim to be a mason from Ohio who is a 32nd degree Scottish Rite mason and apparently you belong to the special lodge that tells it's members all about the NWO while nobody else gets this info. Is that about right? And you are the secretary for this lodge. Correct? Who is the Worshipful Master for the ensuing year? thanks for your time and thanks in advance for promptly answering these questions.

[edit on 8-12-2009 by Mason mike]

Originally posted by ProtoplasmicTraveler


I see it was all staged to sell books and I am sure his publisher was happy to forward those royalty checks to...????

To Morgan.

We aren't talking about Captain Morgan the Pirate or Captain Morgan the Rum Distiller, we are talking about the Captain Morgan who fought in the War of 1812, and was murdered in the prime of his life allegedly for exposing Masonic Secrets...

There is no actual evidence that he was murdered. There is also no actual evidence that he served in the War of 1812, or was ever a "captain". It appears that he lied about that, just like he lied about being a Mason.

Who left behind a YOUNG wife and YOUNG CHILDREN.

Morgan did indeed have a young wife. He married her when she was 16 and he was 44. He also reportedly abused her routinely when drunk, which was most of the time. It was his drunken escapades that first led the Masons to investigate his claims, and discover that he had been lying about his own membership.

Regardless, Morgan's wife does not seem to have believed that Morgan was murdered by the Masons. She re-married another Mason: the founder of the Mormon Church, Joseph Smith.

reply to post by Fitzgibbon

Nice try at twisting my words. My word not to divulge specific secrets concerning Masonry is mine alone. Clearly from the searchability of the ritual online, others haven't felt any compunction about breaking their word about the same matter. It's a test of character in that regard. However, when someone resolutely comes off with something so whacked against Masonry such that even fence-riding non-Masons go WTF, how is it that I'm supposed (in your humble opinion) to be the one with the closed mind for addressing it with certain exceptions?

First off friend there are no secrets. There are people who are simply enslaved to that endeavor of imagining something is secret and to strive to keep it so. It’s like giving a baby in a play pen your keys to play with. Chances are better they will gouge out their eyes with them than start your car or open your safe!

As far as searching out rituals on line I would not recommend that. No one with out a proper mentor and guide should endeavor to understand or dabble in esoteric occult mysticism or imagine they know or understand the sources in play and the nature of their existence or capabilities.

The Internet can be a font of knowledge but its authors are often dubious their sources often poorly documented or suspect.

Frankly I don’t care if Masons have perfected Alchemy. They are but one organization and secret society on a chess board full of them.

Frankly I think it’s a bad idea to put all your eggs into one basket but to that end do be true to yourself!

It just seems inconceivable to the anti-Masonic mind that the 3rd degree is the highest. The York and Socttish Rites afford a more in-depth understanding of what's covered in the first three degrees but the aren't superior to the Master Mason's degree even if numerically they're higher. By anti-Masonic logic, 32 inches should be higher than 3 feet.

Wishing it doesn't make it so.

Why exactly does one have to be anti-Masonic to believe that there are higher degrees of Masonry? Yes it’s true almost no one can achieve the 34th, 35th and 36th degrees, most especially that last one (Caesar’s own) but academia is academia. The world was once considered flat and wishing that did not make it so, neither will wishing there are not higher degrees to Masonry make that so.

And this has exactly what to do with the price of coffee?

Because of the current state of the world I recommend stockpiling commodities like coffee and today’s prices!
Invest in a Donut making machine and no matter what happens politically the police will love you!

The point being is you can’t answer questions you don’t know the answer for; subsequently by extension you are unable to provide answers that a truly critical mind that is suspending judgment requires.

This frustrates many Masons but the reality is it is not anti-Masons who are the most obsessed with Masonry as logic dictates it is the Masons themselves who are most obsessed with Masonry! Their obsession with it combined with its inherent and enforced secrecy invites the curious, critical and academic that percieve it as a puzzle. If you ever work the crosswords you would know some people can not easily put a puzzle down. The publishers of crosswords are of course even more so obsessed, even if it is for profit.

So (if I parse your truly odd statement correctly) it better behoves some unknown, unidentified, übersecret Masonic overseers to use the rest of Masons to spread disinformation rather than just avoid attention in the first place.

Seems a tad counterproductive if flying below the public's radar is what you really want to accomplish.

I think we can basically agree that the Masons are an organization. All organizations are militant in their purpose and structure, they all contain a hierarchy with those at the top knowing the most, and those on the lower rungs knowing progressively less, to the lowly private whose individual assigned tasks might have great or even paramount importance but is almost never privy to the true nature and extend of that purpose.

This is how ALL organizations work whether military, corporate, government, religious, social or familiar.

It would be an astounding departure from these uniform standards for Masonry to be any different. It defies common sense to imagine a gradient hierarchy steeped in secrecy whose members are under penalty for divulging information to those on lower gradients and outside the organization to be different than this uniform standard.

No. To dismiss out-of-hand would be close-minded and incorrect. To accept without a shred of evidence would be foolish and likewise incorrect. To weigh it against one's own experiences and dismiss it for lack of evidence or support is open-minded and correct.

Actually no, the correct thing to do is to suspend judgment until such a time as all facts are known. That is truly open-minded, and fair. For instance I am agnostic because there is not enough evidence to determine the exact and precise nature of a higher earthly or universal or dimensional force. Christians tend to think this makes me anti-Christian; Zionists tend to think this makes me anti-Zionist, Muslims tend to think this makes me anti-Islam.

In your case you believe me to be anti-Mason because I suspend judgment.

The human tendency is to declare someone against something if they do not clearly state unequivocally that they are for something.

Who ever does? From the appearance of your worldview, there's always going to be some sort of elevated, übersecret cabal denying you......something. Whether it's knowledge, wisdom or a Playstation, they'll be there in your mind. Doesn't grant them corporality.

There are more Masters in the world than just Masonic ones friend. The only person who can deny me is me!

You would be amazed just who enjoys confiding things in me. Conversely I hear the latest play-station is designed to hack your computer! I would avoid owning one if you can. Though by all means do exercise your own freewill in that regard.

Speaking only for myself, I expect people to judge me by my words and deeds. I believe they present a clear picture. Masonry does the same. Wilful dissembling by anti-Masons about Masonry should be taken for everything that it's worth.

What makes you think you are being judged? I simply explain to people the self deception they expose themselves too. How could one disassemble an unknown? They would first have to construct it, and what perturbs many Masons is the fact that their secrecy invites such attempts by curious, critical, academic and fearful minds.

I see. You don't keep secrets at all? OK! Please post the numbers for an credit cards (include security codes and PINs) as well as all national identification information that you possess.

I am not a slave to debt so I have none of those; in fact I am not a slave period and returned all those instruments to the State some time ago.

It seems the State was keeping some secrets of it’s own regarding the true nature of such documents.

reply to post by Masonic Light

There is no actual evidence that he was murdered. There is also no actual evidence that he served in the War of 1812, or was ever a "captain". It appears that he lied about that, just like he lied about being a Mason.

Oh what tangled webs we weave when at first we practice to deceive.

If there is no evidence that he was murdered then there is no actual evidence HE WASN’T murdered either!

One should exercise caution in attempting to wield double edged swords!

They say appearances can be deceiving, and actual records from that time period are not easy things to come by.
You might find this shocking but they had no Internet! Government had not grown into a huge bureaucracy yet either.

Contemporary accounts by his peers differ than your own contentions. However its doubtful that the Masons as an organization would out any member who hadn’t first disclosed their membership or make their rosters a matter of public record.

His story had a devastating impact on Masonry at the time.

I will concede this though that it could have been all staged but not for the purpose of selling books.

At that time period a few years after the War of 1812 was over most of the founding fathers by that time were dead and gone. Reading the Treaty of Paris the actual source legal document for the founding of the nation legally, and then the Treaty of Ghent following the War of 1812 objectively and paying close attention to the precise language and legal definitions of the day it becomes obvious that much of the United States accepted history is pure fiction and propaganda.

Secret Committees of Congress with sealed secret articles in the Treaties make the extent of the deception hard to fully identify but suffice to say as the keeper of those secrets passed beyond the veil and debts became due and collectable through previously unknown yet valid instruments there was a great public ground swell of the masses that feared they had been duped by the Masonic Founding Fathers of the Nation. That as a nation the British still had a powerful ruling interest and that there was a great deal of obligatory debt owed to Brittan, the Netherlands, France and Spain that gave them rights as creditors that impinged upon and superseded our own notions of sovereignty.

One of the reasons Captain Morgan’s military records might be missing or incomplete is because when the British sacked Washington the carried off many important documents from the White House and Congress and it’s Library for safe keeping.

Though history obscures most of this for obvious political reasons, the United States was initially founded after the Revolutionary War as an incorporated state of the Holy Roman Empire. The Empire’s last Prince Elector and arch-Treasurer just happened to be King George who was the direct descendent of the last known Holy Roman Emperor in Berlin. Prince Elector George reserved the right to be the United States Prince Elector and Treasurer as well meaning he could choose our President, and he could control our Treasury.

This arrangement probably mattered little to the founding fathers as they had set out to do more or less what they wished, to place themselves in power and to ensure their own posterity and reputations and legacies.

However when the Holy Roman Empire collapsed on paper in 1805 and with many of the actual founders dying off some people had different ideas in regards to honoring the Treaty of Paris.

This led directly to the War of 1812 with Brittan and Rome both reasserting their sovereignty over the United States which included securing many of the source enforceable and binding documents and instruments for it.

A contract after all is a contract!

The United States was never the English King’s property to grant to begin with as in 1100 the English Monarch bequeathed all his worldly possessions and kingdom to the Pope in Rome including everything his heirs would ever acquire or posses. Rome simply leases it back to the Crown.

Once again a contract is a contract!
(Always read them carefully before signing and do understand precise words have precise meanings!)

Most of early Christian America was totally oblivious to these machinations and manipulations until that second generation of post revolutionary leaders began wrestling with these obligations and as more and more came to light the more people believed it to be a Masonic Conspiracy from the very beginning.

This made being a Mason a bit dicey and a bit dangerous too.

So I will concede fearing the worse, the possible entire destruction and outlawing of their own movement by a Central Government that was still withholding the most damaging facts from the increasingly restless populace the Masons acted shrewdly by staging an event that would allow its members to disavow the group in large numbers based on a singular and far lesser crime the murder of Captain Morgan.

Given maximum exposure in the press to the large populace of Christians already distrustful of the Masons created a public outcry that would essentially make it look like the Masonic Order was rapidly dying out as a result and no longer a threat.

This would allow the Central Government the temporary illusion that Masons would no longer play a part as they grappled with how to meet their European Obligations they were unwittingly saddled with by the Masons in the founding and subsequent Treaties.

This would entirely allow the citizens to as well think that the Masons were all but finished and on their way out.

Now so you understand why if I were a Mason I would stick with that well some bad Masons did something they weren’t supposed to story where your contention runs into trouble as a theory is this:

Had Captain Morgan really been a fraud, out to just sell books, the Masons certainly had the power to uncover that, charge that and prove that. They did not do any such thing though, in the finest Roman Tradition they instead fell on their own swords!

Really I would stick with some bad Masons ended up doing a bad thing version.

Greed, it gets people every time!

Regardless, Morgan's wife does not seem to have believed that Morgan was murdered by the Masons. She re-married another Mason: the founder of the Mormon Church, Joseph Smith.

I have a Mormon wife! Seemed like a good idea for a spell…bad idea! Ah the Mormons now there is another interesting bunch! Mormon women are very docile and submissive and deferent. I wouldn’t have expected her to say anything but what she was told to say by her Husband. The fact that her Husband was a Mason?

Well…

reply to post by ProtoplasmicTraveler


one thing that always struck me as odd is that If Morgan was indeed killed by masons for divulging secrets of the masonic order, wouldn't he have been dealt with in the way the penalty suggests? Chained and drowned, sounds so boring. One would think with all the conspiracy surrounding masonic abuse and the like, there would be more bodies turning up with some tell tale signs of masonic involvement. Unless of course masons are telling the truth and the penalties are purely allegory like the rest of what we are taught. I know, too boring and doesn't make for good thread subjects.

reply to post by network dude


According to Morgan's own accounts in his published book, he claimed the penalty for betrayal was disembowelment. Of course only a Mason of the Blue Order (which is as memory serves the order he belonged to) would know if Morgan’s own accounts were accurate of that Order’s teachings.

Presuming Morgan was murdered by Masons that in all fairness is an alleged, never tried in a court of law crime, it is entirely possible circumstances made his abductors and executioners dispatch him in a different manner.

That could have been because of a lack of familiarity with the proper ritual, mercy on the condemned or simply not wanting to ruin a good set of clothes with blood stains, or not having the intestinal fortitude for such a heinous act.

Pun intended.

We have so far looked at four possible explanations for the Morgan incident.

1. Good Masons gone bad that took a presumed fantasy type punishment and acted it out in life for some misguided reason.
2. Good Masons doing what good Masons do and carrying out their sworn duty to kill a betrayer of the Order.
3. A publicity stunt perpetrated by Morgan himself to increase book sales of the accounts he had published.
4. A far deeper conspiracy as I outlined in my most recent post before this one to allow Masons to leave the Order in a more face saving way than the notion of Masons being a treasonous and duplicitous element in regards to the founding of the nation that may have been fermenting at the time by some accounts. To in essence remove them from the spotlight by some scandalous but far lesser reasons and means.

The reality is you and I will likely never know for sure, though I am sure somewhere there does exist a definitive account either written or passed down orally.

The fact that it is on the surface a credible enough account of Masons murdering a betrayer of their secrets provides a powerful deterrent to other Masons who themselves might not be sure whether such punishments are only allegorical in nature and reluctant to find out.

I certainly wouldn’t want to risk finding out one way or the other if I were a Mason and I imagine many Masons would prefer not too take such a risk.

It is an enduring story and with no small degree of mystery and conspiracy involved.

Naturally I favor number 4 myself since I love conspiracies! That’s just me though!

reply to post by ProtoplasmicTraveler


I am not saying it didn't happen, I wasn't around back then. And has been stated a few times, masons are just people who happen to be masons. So if they decided to give him a swimming lesson, then it must have happened. Being that I took an oath not to say what the penalties are, I will just say that cement shoes are not mentioned in any of the degrees that I am aware of. I just think if there ever was any masons who took the oath a bit too litteraly, then shouldn't there be a bunch of mangled masonic bodies through out history? Now that would give the anti mason some gun powder and lead.

edit to add: intestinal fortitude.

[edit on 8-12-2009 by network dude]

The facts are, people will build off what they hear from someone else. I could be wrong but I could be right and you could be lying, we will never know. If you keep a secret then you will see people speculating because they heard it from a friend.

You ask why are people obsessed with Masons, well, why are masons obsessed with keeping secrets? For the same reasons, to build character. People want to be recognized for finding out ancient secrets of freemasonry.

Originally posted by ProtoplasmicTraveler
reply to post by Fitzgibbon

 

Originally posted by Fitzgibbon
Nice try at twisting my words. My word not to divulge specific secrets concerning Masonry is mine alone. Clearly from the searchability of the ritual online, others haven't felt any compunction about breaking their word about the same matter. It's a test of character in that regard. However, when someone resolutely comes off with something so whacked against Masonry such that even fence-riding non-Masons go WTF, how is it that I'm supposed (in your humble opinion) to be the one with the closed mind for addressing it with certain exceptions?

First off friend there are no secrets.

Well duh! What part of "Clearly from the searchability of the ritual online, others haven't felt any compunction about breaking their word about the same matter" didn't register as "there are no secrets"?

Originally posted by ProtoplasmicTraveler
There are people who are simply enslaved to that endeavor of imagining something is secret and to strive to keep it so.

Uh....no. As I clearly stated "My word not to divulge specific secrets concerning Masonry is mine alone". It is a test of character, to a certain degree to Masons in general but more particularly to the individual Mason himself. It doesn't matter to me what others have done. What matters is what I do. That's the test of character.

Originally posted by ProtoplasmicTraveler
It’s like giving a baby in a play pen your keys to play with. Chances are better they will gouge out their eyes with them than start your car or open your safe!

More likely they'll happily chew them. But I digress.

Originally posted by ProtoplasmicTraveler
As far as searching out rituals on line I would not recommend that. No one with out a proper mentor and guide should endeavor to understand or dabble in esoteric occult mysticism or imagine they know or understand the sources in play and the nature of their existence or capabilities.

But you act as if you know and understand the intricacies of Masonic understanding better than Masons themselves. Are you now 'fessing up that you're less than you pretend to be?

Originally posted by ProtoplasmicTraveler
The Internet can be a font of knowledge but its authors are often dubious their sources often poorly documented or suspect.

Definitely it makes it a challenge separating the wheat from the chaff in that regard. But a Masonic scholar should have no real problem, should he?

Originally posted by ProtoplasmicTraveler
Frankly I don’t care if Masons have perfected Alchemy. They are but one organization and secret society on a chess board full of them.

I don't believe Masons every claimed it. Many anti-Masons have made that claim against Masonry though. Wonder if they know less than they pretend.

Originally posted by ProtoplasmicTraveler
Frankly I think it’s a bad idea to put all your eggs into one basket but to that end do be true to yourself!

I don't and I am.

Originally posted by ProtoplasmicTraveler

Originally posted by Fitzgibbon
It just seems inconceivable to the anti-Masonic mind that the 3rd degree is the highest. The York and Socttish Rites afford a more in-depth understanding of what's covered in the first three degrees but the aren't superior to the Master Mason's degree even if numerically they're higher. By anti-Masonic logic, 32 inches should be higher than 3 feet.

Wishing it doesn't make it so.

Why exactly does one have to be anti-Masonic to believe that there are higher degrees of Masonry?

One needn't be anti-Mason to believe it. Only that it's most vociferous adherents are anti-Masons. Playing the odds I am. If I'm in error, my bad.

Originally posted by ProtoplasmicTraveler
Yes it’s true almost no one can achieve the 34th, 35th and 36th degrees, most especially that last one (Caesar’s own) but academia is academia. The world was once considered flat and wishing that did not make it so, neither will wishing there are not higher degrees to Masonry make that so.

Yet you are sparing with your 'evidence' that such degrees exist in Regular Masonry. I don't dispute that their are those who fancy themselves of a higher knowledge and apply to themselves a numerical superiority in terms of degrees. However, they aren't recognised by the rite of Masonry I (and the vast majority of Masons) adhere to and you'll understand my skepticism.

Originally posted by ProtoplasmicTraveler

Originally posted by Fitzgibbon
And this has exactly what to do with the price of coffee?

Because of the current state of the world I recommend stockpiling commodities like coffee and today’s prices!
Invest in a Donut making machine and no matter what happens politically the police will love you!

Touché.

Originally posted by ProtoplasmicTraveler
The point being is you can’t answer questions you don’t know the answer for;

Agreed. However being an active Regular Mason, I can intuit when someone is proffering a canard insofar as Masonry is concerned because Masonry (like most organisations) follows a predictable path of connections and a 'connection' that appears at odds with its predecessors is most likely not a valid connection at all.

Originally posted by ProtoplasmicTraveler
subsequently by extension you are unable to provide answers that a truly critical mind that is suspending judgment requires.

I may not know (yet) the definitive answer presented by a particular question. However, as I mentioned, I can intuit the likely answer as it's not unreasonable to expect that if A+B+C THEN B+C=D and is unlikely tha B+C=E. I'm not saying that it's impossible; just that it's unlikely.

Originally posted by ProtoplasmicTraveler
This frustrates many Masons but the reality is it is not anti-Masons who are the most obsessed with Masonry as logic dictates it is the Masons themselves who are most obsessed with Masonry!

I'd dispute whether it's Masons or anti-Masons who're most obsessed with Masonry. The Masons on this board (in my experience) have been fairly consistent in trying to correct incorrect notions and/or engaging in philosophic debates with non or anti-Masons on points where matters aren't clear cut. However, where a point is clearly white and the Masons point out as much while the anti-Masons insist it's black, I've found that the general pattern is that the Masons will attempt to correct but move on if it becomes evident that the anti-Mason is not to be disabused from his perspective.

That says to me that it's the anti-Masons who have more invested rather than the Masons. YMMV

Originally posted by ProtoplasmicTraveler
Their obsession with it combined with its inherent and enforced secrecy

Is that the "enforced secrecy" that's made the ritual freely available?

Originally posted by ProtoplasmicTraveler
invites the curious, critical and academic that percieve it as a puzzle. If you ever work the crosswords you would know some people can not easily put a puzzle down. The publishers of crosswords are of course even more so obsessed, even if it is for profit.

The mind that refuses to confine a puzzle to its proper allotment of time is the weak mind indeed.

Originally posted by ProtoplasmicTraveler

Originally posted by Fitzgibbon

So (if I parse your truly odd statement correctly) it better behoves some unknown, unidentified, übersecret Masonic overseers to use the rest of Masons to spread disinformation rather than just avoid attention in the first place.

Seems a tad counterproductive if flying below the public's radar is what you really want to accomplish.

I think we can basically agree that the Masons are an organization.

I don't believe that's in dispute.

Originally posted by ProtoplasmicTraveler
All organizations are militant in their purpose and structure,

Really? Pretty broad statement.

Originally posted by ProtoplasmicTraveler
they all contain a hierarchy with those at the top knowing the most, and those on the lower rungs knowing progressively less,

Knowing may not be the best choice of words. Having influence might be a bit more generic but generally more accurate.

Originally posted by ProtoplasmicTraveler
to the lowly private whose individual assigned tasks might have great or even paramount importance but is almost never privy to the true nature and extend of that purpose.

This is how ALL organizations work whether military, corporate, government, religious, social or familiar.

Again, a broad statement and I'd suggest one that doesn't necessarily accurately reflect reality as a whole.

Originally posted by ProtoplasmicTraveler
It would be an astounding departure from these uniform standards

as defined by you for the purposes of argument

Originally posted by ProtoplasmicTraveler
for Masonry to be any different.

I don't believe that I've suggested that Masonry doesn't have a hierarchy. However, it's hierarchy is far more accessible than most. It's far more accessible than virtually any organisation in my experience. It aspires to equality across race and religion. Does it always achieve these aspirations? Not necessarily. But as an overall organisation, there is clear progress that reflects well on the present and bodes well for the future.

Originally posted by ProtoplasmicTraveler
It defies common sense to imagine a gradient hierarchy steeped in secrecy whose members are under penalty for divulging information to those on lower gradients and outside the organization to be different than this uniform standard.

But unfortunately, your qualification of Masonry is incorrect and the conclusions drawn from your presumptions are likewise incorrect. It'd be easier for you if Masonry lived down to your definition of it.

Alas, in reality it does not.

Originally posted by ProtoplasmicTraveler

Originally posted by Fitzgibbon
No. To dismiss out-of-hand would be close-minded and incorrect. To accept without a shred of evidence would be foolish and likewise incorrect. To weigh it against one's own experiences and dismiss it for lack of evidence or support is open-minded and correct.

Actually no, the correct thing to do is to suspend judgment until such a time as all facts are known.

But who's the arbiter of when "all facts are known". And who decides which "facts" are the relevant ones? Real life demands judgement based on past experiences and logical outcome of present ones. Could there be a 90º logical angle upcoming in my Masonic future? Possibly. But it'd be at odds with every step I've taken thus far and I'd suggest that it'd likewise be counterintuitive and counter-productive to the good of Masonry were such a drastic change of approach or focus to be embedded somewhere in the Masonic future.

Originally posted by ProtoplasmicTraveler
That is truly open-minded, and fair. For instance I am agnostic because there is not enough evidence to determine the exact and precise nature of a higher earthly or universal or dimensional force.

Fine. At the present state of the art (and for the foreseeable future) such a clear and unequivocal definition is unlikely. However, given the plethora of those on this planet who see themselves as knowing all and seeing all and behaving accordingly, I find the position of the agnostic unsupportable given the general outcome of the behaviour of those know all/see alls. Modesty and humility are underrated human traits that should be encouraged.

Originally posted by ProtoplasmicTraveler
Christians tend to think this makes me anti-Christian; Zionists tend to think this makes me anti-Zionist, Muslims tend to think this makes me anti-Islam.

In your case you believe me to be anti-Mason because I suspend judgment.

The human tendency is to declare someone against something if they do not clearly state unequivocally that they are for something.

If I'm mistaken, I apologise. However, when something looks, walks, and quacks like a duck the presumption of being some flavour of duck is understandable.

Originally posted by ProtoplasmicTraveler

Originally posted by Fitzgibbon
Who ever does? From the appearance of your worldview, there's always going to be some sort of elevated, übersecret cabal denying you......something. Whether it's knowledge, wisdom or a Playstation, they'll be there in your mind. Doesn't grant them corporality.

There are more Masters in the world than just Masonic ones friend. The only person who can deny me is me!

And has been ever thus. Recognising self-inflicted limitations is probably the most difficult attack on a person's worldview.

Originally posted by ProtoplasmicTraveler
You would be amazed just who enjoys confiding things in me. Conversely I hear the latest play-station is designed to hack your computer! I would avoid owning one if you can. Though by all means do exercise your own freewill in that regard.

No sweat. Call me old school but I enjoy real world interaction more than simulated.

Originally posted by ProtoplasmicTraveler

Originally posted by Fitzgibbon
Speaking only for myself, I expect people to judge me by my words and deeds. I believe they present a clear picture. Masonry does the same. Wilful dissembling by anti-Masons about Masonry should be taken for everything that it's worth.

What makes you think you are being judged?

Because I'm a freely-admitted Mason on a site dedicated to conspiracies. And what better conspiracy than what Masons might know and be holding in abeyance? Aside from that, nothing in particular.

Originally posted by ProtoplasmicTraveler
I simply explain to people the self deception they expose themselves too. How could one disassemble an unknown?

One can dissemble an unknown if they steadfastly deny a logical extension of their professed belief.

Originally posted by ProtoplasmicTraveler
They would first have to construct it, and what perturbs many Masons is the fact that their secrecy invites such attempts by curious, critical, academic and fearful minds.

Masons recognise the curiousity that Masonry embridles. What defies explanation is why the non or actively anti-Mason feels he/she is more understanding of the inner workings of Masonry than the practicing Mason.

I believe this is known as hubris. I may be in error.

Originally posted by ProtoplasmicTraveler

Originally posted by Fitzgibbon
I see. You don't keep secrets at all? OK! Please post the numbers for an credit cards (include security codes and PINs) as well as all national identification information that you possess.

I am not a slave to debt so I have none of those; in fact I am not a slave period and returned all those instruments to the State some time ago.

It seems the State was keeping some secrets of it’s own regarding the true nature of such documents.

Bully for you. But you may well find that your best efforts are in vain. I do my best to compromise.

Originally posted by network dude
reply to post by ProtoplasmicTraveler

 

I am not saying it didn't happen, I wasn't around back then. And has been stated a few times, masons are just people who happen to be masons. So if they decided to give him a swimming lesson, then it must have happened. Being that I took an oath not to say what the penalties are, I will just say that cement shoes are not mentioned in any of the degrees that I am aware of. I just think if there ever was any masons who took the oath a bit too litteraly, then shouldn't there be a bunch of mangled masonic bodies through out history? Now that would give the anti mason some gun powder and lead.

edit to add: intestinal fortitude.

[edit on 8-12-2009 by network dude]

It’s truly amazing how many people go missing each year and are never heard from again.

Truth be known murder is a crime that most people like to get away with for obvious reasons.

It becomes exponentially easier to do that when there is no body that ever turns up!

Personally it doesn’t concern me since I am not a Mason. The only oath I ever take is to take no oaths. Some people find comfort in herds; some people just see a lumbering mass of humanity that’s bound to slow them down with entanglements.

From a conspiracy angle I think one of the most provocative things to look at regarding the Masons is Sir. Francis Bacon. He seemed to have a fascination in reestablishing an advanced Modern Atlantis type of society. He saw America as the perfect place to build that and appears to have worked with both Masons and Rosicrucians to that end.

Lofty and heady and quite progressive goals for any age actually.

The real mystery though might be what the source of Bacon’s ideals and notions, I love history. It’s nice of you guys to indulge me in bouncing some of this stuff around!

Thanks!

Hail Caesar!

Originally posted by ProtoplasmicTraveler
reply to post by Masonic Light

 

Originally posted by Masonic Light[/url]
There is no actual evidence that he was murdered. There is also no actual evidence that he served in the War of 1812, or was ever a "captain". It appears that he lied about that, just like he lied about being a Mason.

Oh what tangled webs we weave when at first we practice to deceive.

If there is no evidence that he was murdered then there is no actual evidence HE WASN’T murdered either!

Uh...last I checked, we weren't practicing the Napoleonic Code on this side of the Atlantic.

Originally posted by ProtoplasmicTraveler
One should exercise caution in attempting to wield double edged swords!

They say appearances can be deceiving, and actual records from that time period are not easy things to come by.
You might find this shocking but they had no Internet! Government had not grown into a huge bureaucracy yet either.

Contemporary accounts by his peers differ than your own contentions.

For example?

Originally posted by ProtoplasmicTraveler
However its doubtful that the Masons as an organization would out any member who hadn’t first disclosed their membership or make their rosters a matter of public record.

Which just goes to show the depth of your understanding of the tenets of Masonry.

Originally posted by ProtoplasmicTraveler
His story had a devastating impact on Masonry at the time.

Agreed although I believe it tied in to an already-existing anti-establishment dynamic which already existed as opposed to being a force unto itself.

Originally posted by ProtoplasmicTraveler
I will concede this though that it could have been all staged but not for the purpose of selling books.

And why not? Publicity's publicity isn't it?

Originally posted by ProtoplasmicTraveler
At that time period a few years after the War of 1812 was over most of the founding fathers by that time were dead and gone. Reading the Treaty of Paris the actual source legal document for the founding of the nation legally, and then the Treaty of Ghent following the War of 1812 objectively and paying close attention to the precise language and legal definitions of the day it becomes obvious that much of the United States accepted history is pure fiction and propaganda.

Care to be more specific and forthcoming?

Originally posted by ProtoplasmicTraveler
Secret Committees of Congress with sealed secret articles in the Treaties make the extent of the deception

Care to be more specific and less nebulous?

Originally posted by ProtoplasmicTraveler
hard to fully identify but suffice to say as the keeper of those secrets passed beyond the veil and debts became due and collectable through previously unknown yet valid instruments there was a great public ground swell of the masses that feared they had been duped by the Masonic Founding Fathers of the Nation.

Ah! This would be the minority of the U.S. founding fathers who were Masons, right?

Originally posted by ProtoplasmicTraveler
That as a nation the British still had a powerful ruling interest and that there was a great deal of obligatory debt owed to Brittan, the Netherlands, France and Spain that gave them rights as creditors that impinged upon and superseded our own notions of sovereignty.

You must be kidding! So the whole point of the U.S. Revolution some 30-odd years before was to throw up your collective hands and say "we owe you, King George"?

You'll pardon me if your story sounds just a little more than ridiculous. And don't entertain the notion that you're dealing with a know-nothing insofar as the War of 1812's concerned. You may be unpleasantly surprised.

Originally posted by ProtoplasmicTraveler
One of the reasons Captain Morgan’s military records might be missing or incomplete is because when the British sacked Washington the carried off many important documents from the White House and Congress and it’s Library for safe keeping.

The one shortcoming in that stream of logic being that while Washington's copies may have burned, there would have been a number of copies originating initially at Fort Niagara.

Originally posted by ProtoplasmicTraveler
Though history obscures most of this for obvious political reasons, the United States was initially founded after the Revolutionary War as an incorporated state of the Holy Roman Empire.

Hoo boy! Here comes the rain again!

Originally posted by ProtoplasmicTraveler
The Empire’s last Prince Elector and arch-Treasurer just happened to be King George who was the direct descendent of the last known Holy Roman Emperor in Berlin. Prince Elector George reserved the right to be the United States Prince Elector and Treasurer as well meaning he could choose our President, and he could control our Treasury. [snip]....had different ideas in regards to honoring the Treaty of Paris.

This led directly to the War of 1812 with Brittan and Rome both reasserting their sovereignty over the United States which included securing many of the source enforceable and binding documents and instruments for it.

Considering that Britain was at war with France at the time for its survival (as it had been at the time of the U.S. revolution) and the U.S. was taking no small umbrage in the U.K.'s enforcement of the Orders in Council to stop all direct trade with the Continent (synonymous at the time with France and Napoleon), your assertion that mad King George was coming to demand payment lacks a certain.......basis in reality shall we say?

Originally posted by ProtoplasmicTraveler
A contract after all is a contract!

The United States was never the English King’s property to grant to begin with as in 1100 the English Monarch bequeathed all his worldly possessions and kingdom to the Pope in Rome including everything his heirs would ever acquire or posses. Rome simply leases it back to the Crown.

Funny. Even a cursory perusal of that statement would flag the behaviour of Henry VIII as throwing not a small monkey wrench into said assertion.

Originally posted by ProtoplasmicTraveler
Once again a contract is a contract!
(Always read them carefully before signing and do understand precise words have precise meanings!)

I believe Mao Tse Tung had something to say about power and gun barrels.

Originally posted by ProtoplasmicTraveler
Most of early Christian America was totally oblivious to these machinations and manipulations until that second generation of post revolutionary leaders began wrestling with these obligations and as more and more came to light the more people believed it to be a Masonic Conspiracy from the very beginning.

This made being a Mason a bit dicey and a bit dangerous too.

Save for the fact that the "post revolutionary leaders" as you put it were, in fact, the revolutionary leaders. Witness "Granny" Hull and the debacle that was Detroit. Sorta scotches your assertion.

Originally posted by ProtoplasmicTraveler
So I will concede fearing the worse, the possible entire destruction and outlawing of their own movement by a Central Government that was still withholding the most damaging facts from the increasingly restless populace the Masons acted shrewdly by staging an event that would allow its members to disavow the group in large numbers based on a singular and far lesser crime the murder of Captain Morgan.

The shortcoming of your assertion being that Morgan was presumably murdered by Canadians. Ergo, why not a resumption of the War? After all, Canada then (as now) had about a tenth of the States' population. Should've been a mere matter of marching.

Originally posted by ProtoplasmicTraveler
Given maximum exposure in the press to the large populace of Christians already distrustful of the Masons created a public outcry that would essentially make it look like the Masonic Order was rapidly dying out as a result and no longer a threat.

If they were a non-threat, why name your party the Anti-Masonic Party? That'd be sorta like astronomers naming their society the Anti-Flat-Earth Society.

Originally posted by ProtoplasmicTraveler
This would allow the Central Government the temporary illusion that Masons would no longer play a part as they grappled with how to meet their European Obligations they were unwittingly saddled with by the Masons in the founding and subsequent Treaties.

So how is it that you explain the U.S. acquisition of Mexican territory, obstensibly by the actions of known Masons? Coincidence?

Originally posted by ProtoplasmicTraveler
This would entirely allow the citizens to as well think that the Masons were all but finished and on their way out.

Now so you understand why if I were a Mason I would stick with that well some bad Masons did something they weren’t supposed to story where your contention runs into trouble as a theory is this:

Had Captain Morgan really been a fraud, out to just sell books, the Masons certainly had the power to uncover that, charge that and prove that. They did not do any such thing though, in the finest Roman Tradition they instead fell on their own swords!

By your yet unproved assertion. Repeating an assertion does not make it so simply by force of repetition.

Originally posted by ProtoplasmicTraveler
If there is no evidence that he was murdered then there is no actual evidence HE WASN’T murdered either!

Duly noted.

There's also no evidence that he wasn't a hermaphroditic communist street mime.

Originally posted by ProtoplasmicTraveler


It’s truly amazing how many people go missing each year and are never heard from again.

Truth be known murder is a crime that most people like to get away with for obvious reasons.

It becomes exponentially easier to do that when there is no body that ever turns up!

now that is some awesome logic. It must be the masons!
I guess we are just that good when it comes to hiding the evidence. That must be our big secret. And you found us out all by yourself. Congratulations.

I think some people are obsessed because they catch wind of the false rumor of the free mason connection to homosexuality and they want in.
www.abovetopsecret.com...

Well, that rumour has as much basis in fact as the one about Masons being the footsoldiers of bloodsucking reptilian shapeshifters.

Combined, the two only confirm that there are a plethora of morons out there.