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Why are there so many people obsessed with the Masons?

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posted on Dec, 7 2009 @ 11:03 AM
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reply to post by Choronzon
 


This much we know as absolute fact. Captain Morgan was murdered. A huge monument was erected over his grave detailing the account and the Mason's involvement by the local towns people that still exists to this day.

We know for a fact that he published a book detailing the first three degrees of Free Masonry I believe it was the Blue Order? If Memory serves.

In each one of those degrees Morgan published it outlined the penalty for betraying Masonic Secrets which was having your tongue cut out if you were a first degree Mason, being burried to your neck in sand at low tide if you were a second degree Mason and being disembowled alive if you were a third degree Mason.

So whether these are just 'Fantasy' elements of the world's oldest chapter of Dungeons and Dragons players, or time honored sacred traditions is neither here nor there.

What we know is motive existed because he had published the first three degrees.

We know no one was ever charged, or tried or convicted of the crime.

Most importantly WE KNOW that NONE of the alleged culprits were TURNED IN by their fellow Mason's who would presumably have had some inclination who was involved in this 'Good boys gone bad fantasy fest'.

We know because of that that Masons ARE CAPABLE of keeping DEADLY SECRETS!



[edit on 7/12/09 by ProtoplasmicTraveler]




posted on Dec, 7 2009 @ 11:38 AM
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reply to post by mick1423
 


The Calvi case is a fascinating and enduring mystery with a lot of powerful conspiratorial elements involved to be sure.

As the film points out the Vatican is a city state as is London and Washington D.C.

The Father, the Son and the Holy Ghost one might be inclined to say.

That it was a Mason who laid out Washington D.C. and Masons who designed the buildings, and the fact that the nation was founded on the principles of the Roman Republic, and that they even named the sewage creek flowing through Washington the Tiber all adds up to a powerful yet very downplayed Roman influence in the world.

Jesuits, Free Masons, the Italian Mafia, the Catholic Church, the Rothschild family and the Illuminati are all extensions of Rome and Roman power in many ways and most of them take great care to acknowledge that they do have ‘some’ power, but to present it as a very limited in the scheme of things.

All such organizations though love to play a game I call “A fool and his money soon go separate ways”.

Rome’s present slaves are by and large economic ones. Slaves to debt and those who aren’t slaves to debt more often than not aren’t because they understand the concept of a fool and his money soon go separate ways and are extraordinarily adept at separating fools from their money.

My own take on it is Calvi fooled someone out of their money and it was the type of person who was not to be trifled with. I seriously doubt though that the decision to murder him was reached by just one of the groups involved but likely would have required a consensus of all the groups involved since the action against Calvi could lead to others being exposed or damaged.

Rome is a powerful entity and it is no mere coincidence that one of the first stops on a new President’s or Prime Minister’s itineraries is to seek the Pope’s blessing and to kiss his hand.

Most people are unaware that by Treaty in the 1100’s that the Pope was declared Christ’s Vicar. Vicar means official representative and embodiment of. In other words legally and contractually the Pope is G-d! When you see ‘By the Grace of God’ in any treaty between sovereign nations or establishing a sovereign nation (this appears in the Treaty of Paris that established ours) that in reality does not mean the G-d imagined to live in the heavens, but means the Pontificus Maximus Rome’s High Priest the Vicar of Christ.

It doesn’t pay to mess with Rome!




[edit on 7/12/09 by ProtoplasmicTraveler]



posted on Dec, 7 2009 @ 02:40 PM
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Originally posted by ProtoplasmicTraveler

This much we know as absolute fact. Captain Morgan was murdered.


Far from being "absolute fact", no one has ever been able to show what really happened to Morgan. His stepson eventually claimed he was living in the Carribean under an assumed name, and the entire "Morgan Affair" event had been staged to sell his book.



posted on Dec, 7 2009 @ 04:37 PM
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Originally posted by Masonic Light

Originally posted by ProtoplasmicTraveler

This much we know as absolute fact. Captain Morgan was murdered.


Far from being "absolute fact", no one has ever been able to show what really happened to Morgan. His stepson eventually claimed he was living in the Carribean under an assumed name, and the entire "Morgan Affair" event had been staged to sell his book.



I see it was all staged to sell books and I am sure his publisher was happy to forward those royalty checks to...????

We aren't talking about Captain Morgan the Pirate or Captain Morgan the Rum Distiller, we are talking about the Captain Morgan who fought in the War of 1812, and was murdered in the prime of his life allegedly for exposing Masonic Secrets...

Who left behind a YOUNG wife and YOUNG CHILDREN.

Where a step-son enters the picture certainly is a PRETTY picture!



posted on Dec, 7 2009 @ 05:40 PM
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Originally posted by ProtoplasmicTraveler
reply to post by InertiaZero
 


The Masons do have penalties involved in betraying their fraternal order and that is not quite as benign as many people are led to believe.


Freemasons have symbolic penalties. And if you knew anything about the penalty clauses you'd know that being branded a wilfully perjured individual is (to a man of honour) far worse than death.


Originally posted by ProtoplasmicTraveler
In fact they keep their secrets well and few people outside the fraternal order who weren’t previous members have any real idea what goes on past the 3rd degree of Masonry.


Yet oddly enough, the ritual has been available in published form for pushing three centuries and can be Googled. But I suppose from your purview, this is all disinformation, right?


Originally posted by ProtoplasmicTraveler
The only reason that information is partially known is because a Mason published it in 1821 and was subsequently killed for revealing the information.


As I said, the ritual has been available to the non-Mason since (and I'll sit corrected) about the 1730's if not before. So Morgan (if that was in fact his name and he was what he claimed to be [which is somewhat in doubt]) was not revealing anything new to the non-Masonic world.


Originally posted by ProtoplasmicTraveler
Now you might say, ok who has been killed for betraying Masonry since Captain Morgan in the 1820’s.


And it's questionable whether Morgan was killed as the story goes. But I digress.


Originally posted by ProtoplasmicTraveler
The truth is that with powerful examples like that who wants to betray Masonry since then? Not one of the eight Masons who condemned him to death ever was apprehended, charged, tried or convicted despite a huge public outcry regarding the murder.


So how on earth is it that if Masonry and Masons are so all-powerful and all-vengeful that one can Google so much information about even today's ritual?


Originally posted by ProtoplasmicTraveler
It led to the formation of the anti-Masonic political party that morphed into the Whig Party.


As I recall the dynamics of U.S. politics, the Whigs already existed at that time. I'll sit corrected if mistaken. However, the anti-Masonic party was a one-trick-pony and I believe they petered out in around the 1850's or so.


Originally posted by ProtoplasmicTraveler
Secret societies in fact are the antithesis of Democracy. How can the majority discuss, debate and legislate secrets?

They can’t.


You presume much about the operation of Freemasonry and its reach and influence. Having an interest in the War of 1812 era, I found it an interesting assertion by a researcher whose work I normally trust that Sir Isaac Brock (military leader of the British/Canadian forces in the opening year of the War of 1812) and Joseph Willcocks (a member of the Upper Canadian parliament who would go on to lead turncoat settlers fighting with U.S. forces against his former countrymen) could somehow sit in Lodge together (Niagara Lodge #2 [which still exists in Niagara on the Lake, Ontario BTW]). How do you reconcile that sort of dissonance if democracy is stilled in-lodge? Answer? You don't!


Originally posted by ProtoplasmicTraveler
In the aftermath of that scandal Masonic Membership fell way off. Today the Masons are having similar problems with recruitment from a whole range of issues from disinterested youth who are more interested in video games than real life, to a high degree of speculation and accusation that floods the Internet.


That was an issue up until the last decade or so as the Baby Boomers rejected the interests of the parents (not to mention those of society as a whole). But if anything, there's been a resurgence of interest in the core aims of Masonry (as well as other groups whose focus is the betterment of society) and I think we've seen the worst of the "Me" generation. And this interst isn't just directed at fraternal groups like Freemasons, Knights of Columbus, Oddfellows, etc. Today's 20-somethings seem more interested in the general well-being of society than their parents were.


Originally posted by ProtoplasmicTraveler
A lot of these threads appear to be attacks on the Masons but they aren’t. They are opportunities for the Masons to interact with potential new members and revitalize themselves with fresh members.


To a certain degree you're right. However many of these threads demand that Masons put right half-truths or outright lies by those whose mindset has more to do with the 1820s than the 21st century.


Originally posted by ProtoplasmicTraveler
More often or not it’s a Mason bashing the Masons in a controlled way.


For example?


Originally posted by ProtoplasmicTraveler
It is true that the Masons perform many charitable acts for society at large. Conversely so did infamous Mobster Al Capone and Columbian Cocaine Kingpin Pablo Escobar.
I won’t go so far as to say the Masons are a force for good or a force for evil. Good men sometimes do evil things in the pursuit of what they feel is good and right, and evil men sometimes do good things in the pursuit of what they feel is wise and profitable.

Most people end up somewhere in the middle most of the time in the gray area life is lived out in.


Masonry is (like every other human endeavour) constrained by the limitations of the humans so engaged. Generally speaking, Masons have been a positive influence in society since the 18th century. That isn't to say that there haven't been less-than-honourable individuals who've managed to don the apron who've brought dishonour to the cause. Such is life.

But it's only the fool who looks at things in absolute terms and naysays an entire group based on the action or actions of a non-representative minority. However, the Internet has given a bully pulpit to such myopic fools.


Originally posted by ProtoplasmicTraveler
The Masons are many things the Boy Scouts and the local Rotary Club though they are not!

The long and short of it, good, bad, ugly or indifferent, people and groups that contrive to keep secrets by that mere act alone invite speculation, intrigue and conspiracy.


And unbridled tongues will wag regardless of where the truth is. T'is a fact of the human condition. We much prefer to believe stories that bring good men low rather than believe that others can act selflessly and without self-interest, hoping that others of whatever stripe will imitate them.


Originally posted by ProtoplasmicTraveler
As a great man once said “If you can’t stand the heat, stay out of the kitchen!”


But t'is the fool who insists on not turning on the fan.


Originally posted by ProtoplasmicTraveler
The thread really is about why people are obsessed with the Masons, and not really ‘Why people shouldn’t be obsessed with the Masons’.

I have tried to explain the reasons why that I am aware of, just in case the poster truly wants to know!


Yours seems to be a Napoleonic code mindset vis a vis Masonry. Sometimes you need to accept that a duck is a duck and that an action done selflessly for the betterment of society is sometimes just that.

HTH
Fitz



posted on Dec, 7 2009 @ 05:58 PM
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Originally posted by ProtoplasmicTraveler
reply to post by Choronzon
 


This much we know as absolute fact. Captain Morgan was murdered.


We do not know this for an "absolute fact". Those with an agenda are the ones who describe it thusly.


Originally posted by ProtoplasmicTraveler
A huge monument was erected over his grave detailing the account and the Mason's involvement by the local towns people that still exists to this day.


Interesting! However a gravestone is not proof. You've obviously never visited an old graveyard if you believe that everything on a gravestone is unbridled, unabridged truth.


Originally posted by ProtoplasmicTraveler
We know for a fact that he published a book detailing the first three degrees of Free Masonry I believe it was the Blue Order? If Memory serves.


In each one of those degrees Morgan published it outlined the penalty for betraying Masonic Secrets which was having your tongue cut out if you were a first degree Mason, being burried to your neck in sand at low tide if you were a second degree Mason and being disembowled alive if you were a third degree Mason.

So whether these are just 'Fantasy' elements of the world's oldest chapter of Dungeons and Dragons players, or time honored sacred traditions is neither here nor there.

In essence, yes. They're symbolic. A Mason considers such dishonour as having violated his oath as being of a much greater impact on his life than death.

But I don't expect you'll believe me. It just isn't convenient.


Originally posted by ProtoplasmicTraveler
What we know is motive existed because he had published the first three degrees.


Which were known quantities for nearly a century before he published them (albeit maybe not so well-known on the Niagara Frontier of the early 19th century). So what Morgan (if that was indeed his real name) needed was what we call these days a 'hook'.


Originally posted by ProtoplasmicTraveler
We know no one was ever charged, or tried or convicted of the crime.


Perish the thought that perhaps the evidence (even for the loosey-goosey circumstances of the time) was too scant. Better to believe that a trans-border Masonic cabal ensured silence and escape.



Originally posted by ProtoplasmicTraveler
Most importantly WE KNOW that NONE of the alleged culprits were TURNED IN by their fellow Mason's who would presumably have had some inclination who was involved in this 'Good boys gone bad fantasy fest'.


And we know that it must have been so despite the Mason's profession to especially except murder, treason or any other transgression against the laws of God or man when supporting his brother Mason.


Originally posted by ProtoplasmicTraveler
We know because of that that Masons ARE CAPABLE of keeping DEADLY SECRETS!


Yeah. 'Cuz you can Google it! Some frackin' "DEADLY SECRETS"!


Oy!



posted on Dec, 7 2009 @ 06:01 PM
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one thing we are helping slaves like you freemason are free and you jailed in your world and pay slaves taxes.and one free mason dont pay taxes.you do i think thats fuunny



posted on Dec, 7 2009 @ 06:41 PM
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reply to post by Fitzgibbon
 


I feel for you Fitzgibbon really I do.

Yet what likely frustrates you the most in dealing with some of the controversies that surround Masonry might by your own relluctance to understand the cause behind that...

Because the Free Mason Order is a Secret Society it is tasked with attempting to define itself to curious people based on WHAT IT IS NOT, instead of WHAT IT IS.

People and things that tend to define themselves by what they aren't are usually frustrated in that endeavor to that end.

Open Orginizations can define themselves by what they are...you see they aren't keeping secrets.

Secret Societies can't, all they can claim is no we aren't that and we don't do that and you don't understand like we are some how mentally deficient in our not understanding of a Secret Order that refuses to definatively define itself to curious minds.

Take our word for it, you have it all wrong, you can trust us!

Hey where do I sign?


Public relations has gotten a lot harder in the Internet Age what can I say.

Go ask the Zionists if you don't believe me.

Believe it or not I just googled ProtoplasmicTraveler and found out my posts on ATS are quoted on dozens of others sites throughout the world!

I have mentions in everything from Boating Weekend to Real TV!

Go figure!

The important thing is you enjoy your involvement in Masonry. I wouldn't waste much time or thought on what other people think about something I enjoy.



posted on Dec, 7 2009 @ 06:59 PM
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reply to post by ProtoplasmicTraveler
 
do pay taxes i dont becease i am a freemason and i am not jail world like some you are



posted on Dec, 7 2009 @ 07:03 PM
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Originally posted by maya2929
reply to post by ProtoplasmicTraveler
 
do pay taxes i dont becease i am a freemason and i am not jail world like some you are



Well you will have to talk to the IRS about getting me to pay taxes! Lot's of luck there. I can spot a Contract in my sleep.

It only takes one thing to be a free Roman Citizen my friend, and that's realizing you are in Rome!

You don't need 33 degrees of Masonry to figure that out, all you have to do is open your eyes!

It pays to be observant.

Just say Hail Caesar a lot and what can Caesar say?

Hail Caesar!



posted on Dec, 7 2009 @ 07:12 PM
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Originally posted by ProtoplasmicTraveler
reply to post by Fitzgibbon
The important thing is you enjoy your involvement in Masonry. I wouldn't waste much time or thought on what other people think about something I enjoy.


I don't. I try to correct those with honest misconceptions. However, if they're happier in the world of misconception who am I to interfere with it? I'll certainly discuss with one who has an open mind. But I won't waste my hours with one whose mind is resolutely and incorrectly closed.

Life's too short for that. Fair thee well, freight



posted on Dec, 7 2009 @ 07:23 PM
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reply to post by Fitzgibbon
 

yes you are right about being open your eyes great we can man a new world with me would like to sign up i have 9,000 so on list would to sign it



posted on Dec, 7 2009 @ 07:50 PM
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reply to post by maya2929
 


isn't it bed time yet? I am going to have to tell your parents if you don't go to bed soon young man.



posted on Dec, 7 2009 @ 08:09 PM
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Just to make clear because someone asked me; I do not know the name of "that book".
Neither I care.

This person I put as an example on my initial post, is someone I met ocassionally in the past.

He seemed very sure of possesing some information 'only' people inside the organization is supposed to know.

But of course he might had been lying- ...and suffer from the attention seeking disease. Heh.

*edited* grammar

[edit on 7/12/09 by plutoxgirl]



posted on Dec, 7 2009 @ 08:50 PM
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Originally posted by Fitzgibbon

Originally posted by ProtoplasmicTraveler
reply to post by Fitzgibbon
The important thing is you enjoy your involvement in Masonry. I wouldn't waste much time or thought on what other people think about something I enjoy.


I don't. I try to correct those with honest misconceptions. However, if they're happier in the world of misconception who am I to interfere with it? I'll certainly discuss with one who has an open mind. But I won't waste my hours with one whose mind is resolutely and incorrectly closed.

Life's too short for that. Fair thee well, freight


Though it may be well intentioned this is fairly disingenuous because of its highly presumptive and incomplete nature.

Because Masonry is a Secret Society you are only free to discuss things with non-Masons to a point to which your mind is CLOSED towards divulging anything beyond that.

Additionally it’s based on the assumption that you yourself know everything that there is to know about Masonry and its 33 courses and degrees of learning. There is a better chance than not YOU DON’T know everything about Masonry because of that or anything involved with the 34th, 35th, or 36th degrees of Masonry, which until you are promoted to the 34th degree you don’t even know exists, once again because Masonry is a Secret Society that keeps secrets from it’s own members which is why it has a Scientology like gradient learning path in degrees.

What’s more NO MASON claims to know the precise origins of the Order so in reality you CAN’T PROVIDE any answer beyond which you are able to first have learned of yourself, and you are permitted to indulge.

Which of course sets one up blithely to claim one is correct when the individual insisting others are ignorant are purposefully kept ignorant except what those IN THE KNOW want people NOT IN THE KNOW to know because it serves THOSE IN THE KNOW for those NOT IN THE KNOW to believe those suppositions.

Whether those suppositions are actually rooted in fact is IMPOSSIBLE for someone to know who hasn’t personally climbed the entire Masonry ladder.

Pretending otherwise for the sake of being amicable would in fact be CLOSED MINDED and INCORRECT.

The truth is you don’t have the answers, and that’s alright. Wanting people to accept circular closed logic as a substitute for truth is not something that would serve anyone Mason or non-Mason alike particularly well.

Once again the people who keep secrets on purpose shouldn’t really get to call the people who aren’t keeping any crazy when the people who create that speculation through keeping secrets are unwilling and incapable of divulging the whole truth and nothing but the truth.

In reality such people are just looking to turn open minds into closed minds with partial and incomplete answers.

Thanks!


[edit on 7/12/09 by ProtoplasmicTraveler]



posted on Dec, 7 2009 @ 08:59 PM
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reply to post by network dude
 

one thing i am 29 and more higher up on free ways of life you not have the info to helpto live for are slaves like will when 2012 comes to your door



posted on Dec, 7 2009 @ 09:02 PM
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Originally posted by maya2929
...like will when 2012 comes to your door


What happens if 2012 comes to my door and I am out shopping? Will it wait for me or go to the neighbors house instead?



posted on Dec, 7 2009 @ 09:11 PM
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ok things is shops wont be open a** hole and if not at home soo there got you cams gps on yours cell phone easy faind you put in a jailed camp put in slavery and work pass giving to you work and get foodif there any left



posted on Dec, 7 2009 @ 09:15 PM
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reply to post by plutoxgirl
 

ok things is shops wont be open a** hole and if not at home soo there got you cams gps on yours cell phone easy faind you put in a jailed camp put in slavery and work pass giving to you work and get foodif there any left and iam free to saywhat like to help man women like who are slaves poor not open free way of mason give me one person you know that in mason in other lodges youknow



posted on Dec, 7 2009 @ 09:20 PM
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in USA TEXAS IS IN MARTIAL LAW RIGHT KNOW ME FRIENDS WAS THE TWO WEEKS AGOON 11/23/09 AND YOU CANT BEEN IN TOWN PASS 12:00AM ARMY ARE DOWNTOWN THEY WITH GATES MORE GUNS YOU WILL NOT SEE IN WAR.IDS CHECK POINTS EVERY 5 MILES HIGHS WAYS AT MIDNIGHT

[edit on 7-12-2009 by maya2929]



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