What if Christ had died/been killed before he could sacrificed himself for every Christians sins?

In addition to the above question. If Christ had not died, Then would that mean there is no way back to heaven?

I think we can all agree that God's plans do not always play out as they should. (Take Adam for example, and we all know how that went ).


And for the record I am Christian.

[edit on 28-11-2009 by Ghost in the Machine]

*MOD EDIT: typo correction at request of author*


[edit on 11/30/2009 by TheRedneck]

religion, christianity as far as i know would be a differently place my friend.

IMO the Creator (God) does not need a human sacrifice. Kinda reminds me of the mayans sacrificing humans to satisfy their gods. So if Jesus wasnt sacrificed , I don't think it would of mattered.

Didn't the church kill all the heathens that practiced human sacrifice? Seems like a double standard to me.
No offence to the believers.

I would have preferred Christ failed so God could "get angry" again, and instead of saying "They know not what they do father.", he would have just threw his arms up in frustration, returned to heaven, and God could have rained fire down to Earth, and destroy it.

Too many people suffer on this planet, it's a joke. Christ didn't save anyone.

God didn't fail... God couldn't fail.. just by definition. God and Christ are the same. God came to earth as a physical man. In this way, he could relate to men and man could relate better to God. Christ always was on earth and still is because God is. As in ... God simply is.

God, Christ and the Holy Spirit are three different aspects (from the human perspective) of the same one and are always everywhere. If God hadn't been embodied in the physical form of Christ, He still would have been.. because he always was and is and will be.

Trusting and loving Christ is the exact same thing as trusting and loving God because they are one in the same.


Edit to add: This concept is so difficult to explain within the limitation of language. I guess that's why each person has to come to the realization within themselves of it.



[edit on 28/11/2009 by Iamonlyhuman]

Originally posted by Iamonlyhuman
God didn't fail... God couldn't fail.. just by definition. God and Christ are the same. God came to earth as a physical man. In this way, he could relate to men and man could relate better to God. Christ always was on earth and still is because God is. As in ... God simply is.

God, Christ and the Holy Spirit are three different aspects (from our perspective) of the same one and are always everywhere. If God hadn't been embodied in the physical form of Christ, He still would have been.. because he always was and is and will be.

Trusting and loving Christ is the exact same thing as trusting and loving God because they are one in the same.


Edit to add: This concept is so difficult to explain within the limitation of language. I guess that's why each person has to come to the realization within themselves of it.

[edit on 28/11/2009 by Iamonlyhuman]

The Messianic prophecies never called for the Messiah to be God incarnate, so this viewpoint is very very wrong, just ask any Jew.

Originally posted by sirnex

Originally posted by Iamonlyhuman
God didn't fail... God couldn't fail.. just by definition. God and Christ are the same. God came to earth as a physical man. In this way, he could relate to men and man could relate better to God. Christ always was on earth and still is because God is. As in ... God simply is.

God, Christ and the Holy Spirit are three different aspects (from our perspective) of the same one and are always everywhere. If God hadn't been embodied in the physical form of Christ, He still would have been.. because he always was and is and will be.

Trusting and loving Christ is the exact same thing as trusting and loving God because they are one in the same.


Edit to add: This concept is so difficult to explain within the limitation of language. I guess that's why each person has to come to the realization within themselves of it.

[edit on 28/11/2009 by Iamonlyhuman]

The Messianic prophecies never called for the Messiah to be God incarnate, so this viewpoint is very very wrong, just ask any Jew.

Ok... but does God incarnate in the form of Christ diminish God in any way? No, it does not... We tend to think of the trinity as a pie cut into three pieces. Where if you take a slice out, you're left with only two, thereby reducing the total mass of the original pie. This is not the case. The Pie is always whole - regardless.



[edit on 28/11/2009 by Iamonlyhuman]

Originally posted by Ghost in the Machine

That makes no sense at all. The purpose of Christ was to give christians a path back to heaven by dying for them. If he had not died there would be no remission of sin. Therefore no one could be forgiven, Hence rendering everyone ineligible to return to heaven.

The purpose of Christ was to give people a path by choosing physical death over spiritual death.

Originally posted by Ghost in the Machine
What if Christ had died/been killed before he could sacrificed himself for every Christians sins?

In addition to the above question. If Christ had not died, Then would that mean there is no way back to haven?

I think we can all agree that God's plans do not always play out as they should. (Take Adam for example, and we all know how that went ).


And for the record I am Christian.

[edit on 28-11-2009 by Ghost in the Machine]

God cannot fail and here is why. Lets say that you were not bound to the laws of physics and universal laws. And let's say that you were not bound by what we call time but could move freely from place to place and walk through time past present and future at will. Even if it were possible for Jesus to die before the crucifixion, it would not happen because God would simply be there to prevent it before it happens.

Jesus said something to the Pharisees one day to which Jesus replied, " Abraham rejoiced to see my day and saw it and was glad.." They responded to him, "You're not yet 40 years old and have you seen Abraham..?" And he replied, I tell you the truth that before Abraham was, I am.." Then they sought to kill him because he being a man made himself God.

The part that is interesting is "..before Abraham was, I am.." Jesus was clearly saying that he was present in the past as well as in the present. Therefore whatever God has said will happen will happen.

But God will also allow for free will. In Adam's case, his choice was knowledge and sin and death, but God still provided a salvation through Christ. But Adam could have chosen the tree of life instead if he wanted.

Let's look at Nineveh. God told Jonah to go tell the city that in 40 days it would be completely destroyed. God had already declared the future of the city of 150,000 to 300,000 persons. He would destroy it for their rebellious sin. When Jonah finally gets around to telling the city what would happen, the entire city repents, fasts, and cries out to God for forgiveness. God forgives them and the city is not destroyed. Yet before God were two very real realities that existed at the same time. Only one would be the manifest reality and the other the alternate possible reality.

So you see, God cannot fail. Man can fail because he neither sees the future nor contemplates the past. God however exists in all times and all realities all at once and is not bound to any as man is. The best man can do is to consider his choices and possible futures in a limited way, and consider his past which to him still exists but is unreachable to him.

Wisdom therefore would say that one should always consider the choices one makes because when you decide, the alternate ceases to exist and the one chosen is the manifest reality, an you have begun to take a new road, one that is different than the other.

[edit on 28-11-2009 by Fromabove]

That's a new one, Jesus on a mission from God? So what would happen if he failed, lets see:

- no Crusades in medieval times
- no Inquisition back then
- no Christian churches
- no Popes
- no controversies involving priests or ministers

I guess we'd all end up being Scientologists? Noooooooooo!

Perhaps there is an alternative reality where this has happened?

Hey, I'm not knocking Christianity just coming up with some answers to your question.

[edit on 28-11-2009 by The Alfer]