What if Christ failed his mission?

Originally posted by Fromabove

So you see, God cannot fail. Man can fail because he neither sees the future nor contemplates the past. God however exists in all times and all realities all at once and is not bound to any as man is. The best man can do is to consider his choices and possible futures in a limited way, and consider his past which to him still exists but is unreachable to him.

Wisdom therefore would say that one should always consider the choices one makes because when you decide, the alternate ceases to exist and the one chosen is the manifest reality, an you have begun to take a new road, one that is different than the other.

Excellent.

reply to post by Fromabove

Even if it were possible for Jesus to die before the crucifixion, it would not happen because God would simply be there to prevent it before it happens.

Just like he prevented Adam From eating the apple?

But God will also allow for free will. In Adam's case, his choice was knowledge and sin and death, but God still provided a salvation through Christ. But Adam could have chosen the tree of life instead if he wanted.

OK, so riddle me this. When Satan tempted Christ 3 times, What if Christ gave in to Satan. What then would God do? and please dont play me with that "Christ is perfect". Yes he was, But he was also human, He could have given in.

reply to post by Iamonlyhuman

Ok... but does God incarnate in the form of Christ diminish God in any way? No, it does not... We tend to think of the trinity as a pie cut into three pieces. Where if you take a slice out, you're left with only two, thereby reducing the total mass of the original pie. This is not the case. The Pie is always whole - regardless.

OK, but the Messianic prophecies don't call for God being the Messiah and they never have. If Jesus is the true Messiah, then he can't be God incarnate. A prophecy is a prophecy and exist absolute as it is written and prophesied by God. The bible is the divine inspiration written by God through men, or so the story goes; Should we detract from his word and decide he was wrong and that the Messiah was really God despite Gods own word? Do we place our selves above God and call him a two faced lying bastard who got his own prophecies wrong and that we know his plan better than he does?

Are you above God?

Originally posted by Ghost in the Machine
reply to post by Iamonlyhuman

Yet again. That statement raises more questions. What do you suppose happened to all those before the time of Christ. Are you saying that they all died spirtually?

No, I am saying just the opposite - that Christ/God showed us by example - the choice has always been there.

Originally posted by The Alfer
That's a new one, Jesus on a mission from God? So what would happen if he failed, lets see:

- no Crusades in medieval times
- no Inquisition back then
- no Christian churches
- no Popes
- no controversies involving priests or ministers

I guess we'd all end up being Scientologists?

Noooooooooo!

Perhaps there is an alternative reality where this has happened?

Hey, I'm not knocking Christianity just coming up with some answer to your question.

Do not confuse what some of the people of the church have done with what the Church should have done. They made choices as well.

Originally posted by Fromabove
Even if it were possible for Jesus to die before the crucifixion, it would not happen because God would simply be there to prevent it before it happens.

God was there because God is Jesus. The reason it could not fail is because God was making the choice although fully with man's mind.

Originally posted by Ghost in the Machine
Just like he prevented Adam From eating the apple?

That choice was Adam's.



[edit on 28/11/2009 by Iamonlyhuman]

reply to post by Iamonlyhuman


Your taking me out of context.

But God will also allow for free will. In Adam's case, his choice was knowledge and sin and death, but God still provided a salvation through Christ. But Adam could have chosen the tree of life instead if he wanted.

OK, so riddle me this. When Satan tempted Christ 3 times, What if Christ gave in to Satan. What then would God do? and please dont play me with that "Christ is perfect". Yes he was, But he was also human, He could have given in.

reply to post by Ghost in the Machine

So, If Christ had died, then Just the belief in God in general would save a persons soul?

Since Christ was born, if he had died by some other means, we would still have to believe in Christ for salvation. His mission was to die for the sins of the world.

Before Christ came though, people were saved by trusting in the God of Israel for salvation.

Originally posted by sirnex
reply to post by Iamonlyhuman

 

Ok... but does God incarnate in the form of Christ diminish God in any way? No, it does not... We tend to think of the trinity as a pie cut into three pieces. Where if you take a slice out, you're left with only two, thereby reducing the total mass of the original pie. This is not the case. The Pie is always whole - regardless.

OK, but the Messianic prophecies don't call for God being the Messiah and they never have. If Jesus is the true Messiah, then he can't be God incarnate. A prophecy is a prophecy and exist absolute as it is written and prophesied by God. The bible is the divine inspiration written by God through men, or so the story goes; Should we detract from his word and decide he was wrong and that the Messiah was really God despite Gods own word? Do we place our selves above God and call him a two faced lying bastard who got his own prophecies wrong and that we know his plan better than he does?

Are you above God?

Is 9:6-7 (Holy Bible)

6 For to us a child is born,
to us a son is given,
and the government will be on his shoulders.
And he will be called
Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God,
Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.

7 Of the increase of his government and peace
there will be no end.
He will reign on David's throne
and over his kingdom,
establishing and upholding it
with justice and righteousness
from that time on and forever.
The zeal of the LORD Almighty
will accomplish this.


Notice "Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace"

Originally posted by Ghost in the Machine
OK, so riddle me this. When Satan tempted Christ 3 times, What if Christ gave in to Satan. What then would God do? and please dont play me with that "Christ is perfect". Yes he was, But he was also human, He could have given in.

Yes He could have given in and that would have been the end of it all because it would have been God giving in to Satan. Christ and God are one in the same.

reply to post by sirnex

Jesus died for breaking Roman law, the little rebellious bastard

No, Jesus died for declaring himself as God. Pilate found no fault in him and wanted to release him.

reply to post by octotom


Do you really think that? What if Christ had died as an infant. Do you expect the masses to believe that a dead child was their saviour?

reply to post by sirnex

The Messianic prophecies never called for the Messiah to be God incarnate, so this viewpoint is very very wrong, just ask any Jew.

That's up to interpretation. But, assuming your view, there is no Messianic prophecy saying that the Messiah wouldn't be God.

Originally posted by Iamonlyhuman

Originally posted by Ghost in the Machine
OK, so riddle me this. When Satan tempted Christ 3 times, What if Christ gave in to Satan. What then would God do? and please dont play me with that "Christ is perfect". Yes he was, But he was also human, He could have given in.

Yes He could have given in and that would have been the end of it all because it would have been God giving in to Satan. Christ and God are one in the same.

Again your statement raises more questions. Although you may be correct. There are too many conflicting scriptures that stand in your way.

reply to post by Ghost in the Machine

OK, so riddle me this. When Satan tempted Christ 3 times, What if Christ gave in to Satan.

It would have been impossible for Christ to have submitted to the temptation because he was God as well. Thus, this point is moot.

[edit on 11/28/2009 by octotom]

Originally posted by Ghost in the Machine
reply to post by octotom

 

Do you really think that? What if Christ had died as an infant. Do you expect the masses to believe that a dead child was their saviour?

If Christ had died as an infant, yet without any sin, we would still be accountable to believe in Him as God's Son. But, alas... he went to the cross after all.

Originally posted by Ghost in the Machine
reply to post by Iamonlyhuman

 

Your taking me out of context.

I'm sorry, it wasn't intentional... I'm not sure what you're referring to though, could you please repost what you said and what I said? I'm confused with all the cross posting.

reply to post by Ghost in the Machine


Yes, I do believe that. But, you must remember that you're arguing a hypothetical and almost assuming that God has no providence and wouldn't have been able to protected himself from dying.

reply to post by octotom

It would have been impossible for Christ to have submitted to the temptation because he was God as well. Thus, this point is moot.

So what you are suggesting is that Christ wasnt a man but a God? So a God being killed by us, for us. Makes sense to you? Explain.

reply to post by Ghost in the Machine


Conflicting how? That Christ and God aren't the same?

John 10.30, Jesus speaking:

I and the Father are one.