Do women have a human right to taxpayer paid abortions? I don't think so!

On the topic of whether or not a fetus is alive. Your Choice, Some food for Thought.


I would like to offer this interesting article (psychology) that claims that the fetus is able to dream. Not only this but at "By nine weeks, a developing fetus can hiccup and react to loud noises. By the end of the second trimester it can hear."
"During REM sleep, the fetus's eyes move back and forth just as an adult's eyes do, and many researchers believe that it is dreaming. DiPietro speculates that fetuses dream about what they know--the sensations they feel in the womb."http://www.psychologytoday.com/articles/199809/fetal-psychology

reply to post by Zerra


Wow just think of that little innocent baby sitting in its mother's womb having its little baby dreams as its heart beats away. Thanks for sharing.

Originally posted by HotSauce
Because if you justify a fetus as an innocent life then it makes the vast majority of those people that have abortions selfish instead of poor victims of an evil society like the pro-choicers want you to believe.

That is true and also sad. Some people who have abortion are actually selfish and are not victims at all.

Originally posted by HotSauce
reply to post by Zerra

 

Wow just think of that little innocent baby sitting in its mother's womb having its little baby dreams as its heart beats away. Thanks for sharing.

More than likely hearing/dreaming of his/her mothers voice. Once born and even prior to birth he baby is able to distinguish between her and that of strangers.

[edit on 11-11-2009 by Zerra]

reply to post by Zerra


Already bonded to her in a way that only a child can bond to its mother. Looking to her for love and protection. Its the ultimate betrayal for her to destroy that childs life. How can anyone destroy a part of herself like that. Maybe part of it is driven by a form of self hate. Wonder if there has been research on that?

[edit on 11-11-2009 by HotSauce]

Originally posted by HotSauce
reply to post by Zerra

 

Already bonded to her in a way that only a child can bond to its mother. Looking to her for love and protection. Its the ultimate betrayal for her to destroy a part of herself like that. Maybe part of it is driven by a form of self hate. Wonder if there has been research on that?

There are pro life feminists who believe that abortion is not a choice at all, that women do not want to kill their baby-it is a part of her (making her a victim). This is an illusion 'choice' that women feel forced into b.c of certain conditions and standards set for them (ex: can't work if you're preggers). It is the pro life feminists that would like real options available to these women in need. It is definitely no secret that a woman's body goes through a lot of stress and health risks taking part in the procedure, it is also true that depression and emotional problems follow the 'decision'. Many teenagers are forced to make this 'choice' based on a parents strict oders, others do so to keep reputation at school.
I think the error a lot of pro life people have is that people who go into abortions do so b.c they 'want' to. I don't think anyone wakes up one day with a need to kill their own baby (maybe if they are crazy)-especially b.c i'm pretty sure it's painful-. It is likely that they feel pressure from some other source-whether it's money, parents, reputation, etc.. it's still not an empowered woman making a choice, it's a scared woman who feels they ran out of options.

I would definitely love to see societies find alternatives for these women who feel trapped. I really don't think anyone 'wants' to kill a fetus. Maybe I'm an idealist, but so be it-I see the good in people. Those that abort seem to be like a mouse with its tail caught in a trap- If they bite off their own tail they can live, if they stay they lose-Is that really a choice?

reply to post by Zerra


Hmm very good points. I see a lot of social programs/non profits trying to help women avoid having an abortion. Why do you think they chooose not to pursue that help. Is it just a matter of them not knowing it is out there?

Originally posted by HotSauce
reply to post by Zerra

 

Hmm very good points. I see a lot of social programs/non profits trying to help women avoid having an abortion. Why do you think they chooose not to pursue that help. Is it just a matter of them not knowing it is out there?

They may not, or it may not be enough. I think we still live in a world where women are not given the equal opportunities that men may have access to-meaning women's rights in label only but in action far from there. Women are still scared about losing their jobs when pregnant which tells me our socities are not as progresed as we may like to think.


Here where I am from (Canada) there are still professional males getting paid higher wages than females. (to show we still hav eprobelms with equality)

A parent with no time may go to Mcdonalds, convinient? yes!!!! healthy? no...would the parents want to cook a healthy meal if they felt they could? yes!!-pressure, time, works etc makes it hard and there's a quick fix available. Problem is, we are so focused on these quick fixes we don't look at the source of our problems...where's the problems stemming from? Can we get away from the is Mcdonalds right or wrong concept in time to attack the real issues? (are adults being asked to work too many hours?) May sound off topic, but if you may be open minded to see the similarities btw these issues. So, in other words is abortion really something women want to do? or are there route causes society hasn't had tim to deal with yet?

There may not be enough focus on these help programs you suggest. Even prolifers do not (as far as i have seen) have signs of alternative helps..just gross signs they show..

[edit on 11-11-2009 by Zerra]

Originally posted by canadianmouse

Originally posted by HotSauce
reply to post by canadianmouse

 

1. IT is going to be based on my opinion because I created the thread.What do you expect?

2. I would be aganst blood transfusions too if there purpose was to the kill a baby because the mother found it to be inconvienient to her life at the moment.

You don't seem to be understanding where I am coming from, there are religions out there that do not believe in transfusions. If you are going to pick medical procedures based on beliefs and not legal medical laws then no one should be allowed blood transfusions to be covered. You should have to pay for that out of your own pocket.

You can't start picking and choosing what the health care system will allow because in the end not everyone is okay with every procedure.

Also having a abortion isn't killing a baby. A fetus isn't a baby.. The fetus depends on the mother to live. How do you know that it is only because she is being inconvienced is the reason for the abortion? There are many reasons for having an abortion. Being pregnant is a medical condition. Pregnancies are not that easy on the female body. Don't start judging women until you have been there in the room having an abortion. You are assuming you know what a woman is going through in there.

A fetus isn't a baby... a fetus depends on the mother to live? I'm pretty sure babies all the way up until they turn 4 yrs old depend on the mother to live. Does that mean babies aren't babies until they're able to take care of themselves and be independent?

No one knows more than I do that pregnancy (and more specifically, the delivery) is not "that easy" on the female body. But our bodies are designed to do this. Just because pregnancy isn't "easy" or "convenient" isn't a valid excuse for terminating a life. And it IS a life. I think, since we consider someone dead when their heart STOPS beating, it's safe to assume their life began when their heart STARTED beating. That's not a religious belief, that's a fact. There's really no grey area here, is there?

And yeah, that's the good thing about this forum, we get to state our case based on our beliefs. Has nothing to do with religion (for me, anyway).

Abortion is a selfish act. There is ALWAYS another alternative.

[edit on 11-11-2009 by UnityFT]

pgabhihm

Originally posted by OhZone

Forced Pregnancy is Slavery. And since you expect the Mother to care for the child that makes her an indentured servant for some 20 years.

I'm afraid we have yet another stretch of the imagination, with this latest flawed argument. No, Oh zone you're wrong on this one too. You see someone who is forced into being pregnant is not a slave to anyone. What she is ohzone is the victim of sexual assault or rape with the resulting consequence, of pregnancy, then THAT would be a forced pregnancy. Unless you can prove her actions were not done on her own volition, her own decision to have sex with the inherant risks and without considering the ramifications of casual sex and the responsibility one might have to assume. If you can't do that, then her being pregnant is her own fault and the fact she does get pregnant is a little late to be talking about it as if she isn't pregnant yet calling her a slave merely because we don't want to sanction her method of undoing what has already been done. A life has taken a part in this matter and this isn't like finding someone at the motor vehicles office that can wipe a traffic ticket off the computer for her, with you suggesting if they don't do it she will be a slave forced to drive on a suspended license.

If you want to call her an indentured servant or slave, then who is she a slave for? Her new son or daughter?

That isn't slavery ohzone, that is called "Motherhood" it is called being responsible for your own actions and your own mistakes` it is called being an adult.

Tell me why exactly do you care if the girl across town has an abortion?
How exactly does it impact your life?

Here is another argument I see the gay community use a lot in same sex marriage debates. Where does this rule come from anyway. That such a person can't disagree with this UNLESS it impacts his own life personally. I am seeing this rule used arbitrarily in all kinds of topics and issues and it just doesn't have any teeth. Imagine our court system choosing jurors that can only qualify to participate in a jury trial of a murder if they can prove how the murder impacted his own life personally. Does it have to impact someones life before YOU think he has a right to say he doesn't want to be forced to sacrifice his hard earned income to finance the abortions of those you have to ask how they are impacting our lives?

They are extorting money from us to pay for their mistakes their indescretion and their elective surgery! That's how they are impacting our lives Oh Zone.

And to those who suggest adoption like you think there are as many people willing and able to adopt as there are babies, I got news for you.

Those who want to adopt are folks who want White Babies.

Still no reason to kill those babies just because YOU think their isn't enough people to adopt them. As I said before, a kid that had grown up his whole life as a foster child, will tell you he deserves to be alive just as much as you do whether he was ever adopted or not. It is so easy foro you people to discard other peoples lives as if it was a dixie cup you are trashing after a drink from the water cooler.

So easy for you to justify all these fallacious arguments for how worthless some life you have decided isn't life at all for reasons not even science can agree with.

For this reason or that reason or because you don't call it a child but a fetus or that somehow someway the straw man argument the abortion issue has always been is actually bringing the crime rates down or keeping the lesser of the two ONLY options you seem to believe their are. That of killing it now, so we won't have to pay the welfare mother she will ALWAYS become and the thug drop out she will always end up parenting.

Also among the babies who would be born instead of aborted are a lot of drug adicted babies.

as opposed to the millions of perfectly healthy baby boys and girls that would be killed from the jaws of the murder mills ironically called planned parenthood

[edit on 11-11-2009 by Kerry_Knight]

An Unborn Baby At 20 Weeks

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/f1d776665e07.png[/atsimg]

Now the Pro-Choice people are saying that the above baby has no rights that the mother can kill it, under her freedom of choice AND they want the government to pay for it on top of it.

I just don't get why people are so heartless and cruel that they think that ending a being like we see above should be a choice.

Don't you think this little baby deserves some protection from a civilized society?

Do women have a human right to taxpayer paid abortions?

I don't think so either.
In fact, I don't believe that they should have the right to kill a baby. Abortions are abominations, period.
Is it a Woman's right to choose? What, choose to kill? Does the baby have a choice?
It's murder, pure and simple. The Constitution talks about the right to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. Nowhere does is say anyone has the right to take another life, and it is LIFE. It has cells, it grows, blood flows through it, and its little heart beats. No amount of PC talk will change that.

Originally posted by UnityFT
A fetus isn't a baby... a fetus depends on the mother to live? I'm pretty sure babies all the way up until they turn 4 yrs old depend on the mother to live. Does that mean babies aren't babies until they're able to take care of themselves and be independent?

No one knows more than I do that pregnancy (and more specifically, the delivery) is not "that easy" on the female body. But our bodies are designed to do this. Just because pregnancy isn't "easy" or "convenient" isn't a valid excuse for terminating a life. And it IS a life. I think, since we consider someone dead when their heart STOPS beating, it's safe to assume their life began when their heart STARTED beating. That's not a religious belief, that's a fact. There's really no grey area here, is there?

And yeah, that's the good thing about this forum, we get to state our case based on our beliefs. Has nothing to do with religion (for me, anyway).

Abortion is a selfish act. There is ALWAYS another alternative.

[edit on 11-11-2009 by UnityFT]

Here here, with the exception that life begins at cell division. That is life after all and most life as we know it starts as such.

I don't think I've ever heard a pro-choice person argue their position without being emotionally detached from what that bunch of cells is, a baby. They discuss a developing human being in scientific terms I think strictly to dehumanize it and distance themselves. And, more often than not, they argue their case from a platform of "me, me, me": "I'm not responsible, I can't advance my career, I can't afford to raise it, I'm single". Truly the epitome of the "me" culture is the agenda of abortion.

And yes, if you are against it, you're often (i.e. always) made out to be some religious zealout hellbent on speading or forcing your views on others. That's their whole defense; that pro-choice folks are ignorant, illogical religious nutjobs who would rather supress women's freedoms and force them to get coat-hanger abortions in some shanty.

reply to post by Freenrgy2

That's their whole defense; that pro-choice folks are ignorant, illogical religious nutjobs who would rather supress women's freedoms and force them to get coat-hanger abortions in some shanty.

You're right my friend. In actuality, the pro-life stance is nothing more than plain old basic humanity. The pro-choice attitude is inhuman, pure and simple. How can anyone that wants to kill a human life be called human?

reply to post by Freenrgy2


You are right Freenrgy. I always hear that. I am not even religious. To me it is more of a common sense, do the right thing, do unto others kind of thing.

reply to post by ProfEmeritus


But then they always try to make us out to be the evil, woman hating, steal everybodies choice monsters. Well for the most part I don't care what they choose as long as it doesn't end up in some innocent person dying. That is where I draw the line for choice.

[edit on 11-11-2009 by HotSauce]

Originally posted by Blue_Jay33

An Unborn Baby At 20 Weeks

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/f1d776665e07.png[/atsimg]

Now the Pro-Choice people are saying that the above baby has no rights that the mother can kill it, under her freedom of choice AND they want the government to pay for it on top of it.

I just don't get why people are so heartless and cruel that they think that ending a being like we see above should be a choice.

Don't you think this little baby deserves some protection from a civilized society?

I'm pro choice.. however I don't think women should have abortions past 12 weeks gestation.. first trimester.

20 weeks.. some babies can survive if born then.

Originally posted by galatea

Originally posted by Blue_Jay33

An Unborn Baby At 20 Weeks

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/f1d776665e07.png[/atsimg]

Now the Pro-Choice people are saying that the above baby has no rights that the mother can kill it, under her freedom of choice AND they want the government to pay for it on top of it.

I just don't get why people are so heartless and cruel that they think that ending a being like we see above should be a choice.

Don't you think this little baby deserves some protection from a civilized society?

I'm pro choice.. however I don't think women should have abortions past 12 weeks gestation.. first trimester.

20 weeks.. some babies can survive if born then.

Out of pure curiousity and the need to understand others peceptions better, what is after 12 weeks opposed to prior (say 11th week, or 9th week) that makes the difference for your belief system? thankyou for your time ^_^

[edit on 11-11-2009 by Zerra]

Originally posted by snusfanatic
reply to post by HotSauce

 

feminist: I HAVE A RIGHT TO AN ABORTION.

america: to each his own. be free.

feminist: NOW PAY FOR IT.

___

I didn't realize this debate wasn't about autonomy and freedom of privacy. I guess it's really about your human right to have your choices funded by the collective. Thanks for the free education....

homosexual: I HAVE A RIGHT TO HAVE SEX WITH WHOMEVER I PLEASE

america: to each his own. be free.

homosexual: AND A RIGHT NOT TO BE DISCRIMINATED AGAINST

america: ok homosexual, you got it

homosexual: AND A RIGHT TO HAVE ONE OF YOUR MOST FUNDAMENTAL SOCIAL STRUCTURES COMPLETELY REVISED

america: whoah hold on there

homosexual: AND YOU CANNOT SAY HUSBAND AND WIFE, YOU MUST USE PARTNER

america: what???

homosexual: AND YOUR CHILDREN WILL BE TAUGHT THAT ANAL SEX IS NATURAL AND GOOD FOR YOU IN PUBLIC SCHOOLS (actually been proposed)

america: WTF

homosexual: I DONT CARE WHAT YOU THINK, I WORK FOR THE ROCKEFELLERS AND THEY DONT WANT YOU BREEDING. BEFORE YOU KNOW IT YOUR KIDS WONT KNOW THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN A BLOW JOB AND A NATURAL AND LOVING RELATIONSHIP. ALL IN THE NAME OF FREEDOM. IM JUST SOME LOST AND PATHOLOGICAL NARCISSIST I DONT REALLY KNOW WHAT IM DOING, BUT IN COLLEGE THEY PROMOTE THIS BEHAVIOR (WHICH IS WHEN I 'CAME OUT OF THE CLOSET'). I ACTUALLY THINK IM WORKING FOR 'FREEDOM'.

america: holy !@#$ing crap!

America, can't you see that the LGBT is not about 'rights' its about an agenda? its about turning you into a homosexual. its not paranoia, look and see what policies actually get implemented and you will see this is exactly whats its about. Same can be said for Abortion. Its not about rights, its about not reproducing.

It's interesting that some are pro-choice with a waiver, no abortions after X time.

Is anybody pro-choice right up until 9 months?