Conspiracy in salvation through belief!

IMO The divine being wants you to believe because He is real, now take it how you want, but the bible has been altered, and He isn't banking on you believing man's word, He is banking on you believing in His son, and If not, then there is nothing saying you will be condemned to hell for just not believing in Jesus, Jesus is there for a way for your sins to be forgiven, and at that time, you can choose to accept or deny that forgiveness. In the same breath I will say, He probably strongly dislikes many preachers and such for their self righteous profiteering in the name of the Lord...

reply to post by PSUSA


I do agree...we can learn alot from other people. Find understandings mabey.

But is God really counting on us to bank our souls on a 'belief' that was passed on from other men, that the 'belief' totally matters on the salvation of your soul?

Sometimes I direct posts to people, when still generally speaking to all, I didnt mean to sound as if I was personally doubting that you dont test your belief...sounds like you are trying to walk a personal path, which I respect.

Im so glad others are giving feedback

The Bible says that the Jews lived by the law and they were persecuted by it, by having faith in Christ the apostles were liberated by the law as faith was the new law, this faith could be inherited by all, we all become the seed of Abraham. Christ covered the sins and set us free from bondage and old rituals.

Now the problem is that there are all these denominations, at the end of the day you should read what the Bible says it self rather than follow a name tag that puts another word in front of Christianity.

But now people say faith is a conspiracy, all Christian faith asks for is a simple belief in Christ, of course there are morals that go with it but they won't harm you if you start to take some of them up. You have to ask, what is stopping you from taking that step, what is eating away at you that makes it hard to have that little commitment?







[edit on 15-10-2009 by The time lord]

reply to post by clever024


Hello clever...thanks much for joining. You are really the first to bring up certain requirments (more or less) that one must 'believe' to find salvation, so to you I ask some thoughts...

Are you ready? I do hope so...

What if I dont need forgiven in the way you think I do. What if man told you this and it makes sense to you in a Earthly way. We get told God needs blood for sins...but what if that is the ultimate ball and chain to this world, trying to shed blood (killing for sins). What if just believing in that....the blood is also on your hands? What if even by you telling me I must be forgiven through the blood of another man that by me believing you has no mislead another soul from spiritual freedom?

What if man has it all wrong, and truly, only few find the way?

That is scary to think of.

What if God dosent want us to kill anything, but only learn from mistakes and behaviors? What if by man telling you to 'believe' in this or else.....makes you fear God in a way that God now cant reach you, cant know you, nor you Thee?

What if?

We have many cultures that believe many things....they all have reasons of history for what they believe. Can they not all hold some truth?



Do you test your knowing on these things? Do you know for sure that man is a fallen mistake?

I know this is a very touchy topic...I dont mean to stir the pot, I just care about all souls and our progression and give thanks for those willing to bring their deepest thoughts here.

reply to post by The time lord


Because by me taking that step, limits God to me...and makes the nature of Thee seem more Earthly then Spiritual.

I have my reasons for what I believe, I find them more valid then my reasons for when I was a Christian.

How do you know, that by asking me to just take that next step, that you really arent causing me progression, but regression, in my spiritual growth?

Thanks for joining the convo, btw!

Here is what it comes down to.

1Jo 2:2
And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

Did He fail? The "church" says He did. According to them, He failed horribly.

John 1:29 The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.

Did He fail? The "church" says He did. According to them, He failed horribly.

Notice a pattern here? You wont hear these scriptures taught.

Do you think you can believe by your own "free will"?

Joh 6:44
No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Draw means to drag off. www.biblestudytools.com...

So what happens to those that don't get "dragged"?

According to the "church" [gag!] they get thrown into "hell" to be tortured forever. Now does that make sense? I mean think about it. God created people he knew would be tortured anyway. How in the world can anyone love a God like this? How can these people say that "God is love, and God will torture the vast majority of this that have ever lived in real fire for endless time" because they don't believe in someone they NEVER HEARD OF!. That is what they say. This is sick beyond words.

And "salvation"? Will someone please point me to book, chapter and verse that gives the so-called "sinners prayer"? Where is it at? I can't find it.
But according to the "church", all you have to do is pray that scripted prayer nonsense and viola! you're "saved".

I better stop now.

reply to post by LeoVirgo

My dear daughter you know from where I come and I humbly bring my thoughts and "beliefs" to your thread.

ROMANS 5:1-2
"Therefore since we have been justified through faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have gained access by FAITH into this grace in which we now stand."

Yes, it is true my belief is in Jesus Christ as the true Son of the Living God. I have great FAITH and HOPE in my salvation and that one day by his grace I will see him face to face in all of his glory. PRAISE GOD!

How have I come to belief? First, my grandmother told me stories about Jesus and how much he loved me. That seemed to light a flame in my heart to know more about his love. At 8 years old I started going to a church close to our home. I can truly say that was a beginning of this unique relationship between God and I. I talked to him all the time and I always felt him close to me. That experienced sparked my belief.

ROMANS 8:16
"For you did not receive a spirit that makes you a slave again to fear, but you received the Spirit of the sonship. And by him we cry Abba,Father. The Spirit himself testifies with our spirit that we are God's children.

Yes, words of men but my spirit does cry "Abba, Father". I feel in my alone time the true oneness that comes between his Spirit and mine. It is a time of pure joy and having communion with my Lord and Creator. Yes, reading the scriptures are important to my faith but I also use other sources that I feel I have tested and I am not closed minded to hear another persons opinion about my faith or what they believe or not believe.

ROMANS 8:23-24
For in this hope we were saved. But hope that is seen is no hope at all. Who hopes for what he already has. But if we hope for what we do not yet have, we wait for it patiently.

I believe my conscience confirms my faith by the Holy Spirit. I wait for "it" patiently.

Love Ya Bunches,
Mom

Deuteronomy 22:28-29 (King James Version)

28 If a man find a damsel that is a virgin, which is not betrothed, and lay hold on her, and lie with her, and they be found;

29 Then the man that lay with her shall give unto the damsel's father fifty shekels of silver, and she shall be his wife; because he hath humbled her, he may not put her away all his days.

So God makes the rape victim(s) marry their attackers...

Deuteronomy 22:23-24 (King James Version)

23 If a damsel that is a virgin be betrothed unto an husband, and a man find her in the city, and lie with her;

24 Then ye shall bring them both out unto the gate of that city, and ye shall stone them with stones that they die; the damsel, because she cried not, being in the city; and the man, because he hath humbled his neighbour's wife: so thou shalt put away evil from among you.

The girl, that was raped, should be killed too because she didn't cry for help?

Verses like these...what do you have to say to them? I'm curious. The God in the old testament is the same God in the new testament. He's pretty messed up in the old testament it seems...

reply to post by doped00

Verses like these...what do you have to say to them? I'm curious. The God in the old testament is the same God in the new testament. He's pretty messed up in the old testament it seems...

Where does it say she was raped? Rape is against the law and punishable by death; the death of the rapist, not the death of the girl.

You can find the answer here. But please dont think that website is a good source for info. In spite of its title, he goes into areas that are not right.

I checked out the relevant scriptures and he (or she) is right in this particular instance. Scripture links are embedded in the article. It pays to check them out and not take anyones word for it, since there can be some real shenanigans played by the writers.

Weren't the virgin women raped?

There are two parts to this objection: did God instruct or permit the soldiers to rape the women, and did the soldiers actually rape them?

It's clear that God didn't intend for the soldiers to rape the women, but rather to take them captive. The law God had given to the Israelites condemned rape, in some cases punishing it with death (Dt 22:25-27). Also, immediately following the command to spare the virgin women, the soldiers were instructed to purify themselves and their captives (31:19), and rape (or consensual intercourse) would have violated this command (Lev 15:16-18). In the rest of the chapter, the women are usually referred to as people (using the masculine adam), not women or virgins, underscoring the notion that they were seen as captives rather than sexual objects.1

It's theoretically possible that some of the soldiers raped the women, but given the circumstances it seems very unlikely. The soldiers would have known that rape was a violation of both the law and the instruction to purify themselves, as shown above; they had also seen God punish such violations with death during their travels in the desert. In fact, they had recently experienced a plague and executions resulting from their relations with Midianite women (25:1-9), as Moses reminded them. At that time, all those who had sexual relations with the Midianites were killed. It's highly implausible that the soldiers would have wanted to have anything to do with the Midianite women given this context.

So what did happen to the women (and children)? God gave the Israelites permission to marry women they took captive, but they were to treat their wives with respect: the women were to have time to mourn their families first, and were not to be mistreated (Dt 21:10-14). Those who didn't marry would have become servants, but there were rules against mistreating them as well (Ex 21:26-27, Dt 23:15-16). See the article on slavery laws for more on the treatment of female slaves.

[edit on 16/10/09 by PSUSA]

The point is that we are stuck in this not so perfect environment, it is not perfect and we have death and endless other troubles. The Bible events especially with Christ, brought a new order to society and the nations, there was no more tribal rituals that killed people for asking nature to bring rains or forgiveness, there was no more need to sacrifice animals, all this 2000 years ago became outdated, a new era was born.
Out of Christianity, men and women were united, democracy and tolerance was made official, hope for an afterlife and salvation not only for the Jews but for all of man was established. A new hope and a way out of tribal separated society where all is accepted but people had goals of spreading the news of Christ and the power of the Holy Spirit.

It is a balance for society and individuals, it is not overall strict, it is not Sharia Law of Jewish law or communism or dictatorship, it is a fair law in Christianity because to be too free it is freedom to kill, but to stay in its boundaries we are contained in a safety net.

This is why places like the UK and USA will crumble to extremism once it fails to keep it's Christian foundation alive, society will be a warzone, pure democracy without religion can only contain itself so far, if the believers believe no more there would be no more spirit left to hold back the extremist thinkers who will try and take over a system that is like putty and can be changed to their own image, the freedom to end freedoms will be in its place, uphold the Bible and they will scatter.


[edit on 16-10-2009 by The time lord]

reply to post by doped00


I think there are verses that are more clear then the one's you used to point out the negative nature of the OT god.

So let me bring to the table, for those 'believers of a book' -To start with, with have the paradox of DO NOT KILL

But yet....these people over here arent pleasing me, so go kill them and btw, you get to keep their land!!!

Back then, and before that time, it was common to relate 'god' to bad events and good events. The OT times didnt really have a bad entity and good entity, they believed all things came from god, good and evil. What they werent seeing is how the mind and psychological makeup reacts and responds to its environment. It was really understandable why people related drought to a 'mad god' or fertility to a 'god giving blessings'. I think as much as people want it all to be literal, they are not discerning Earthly ways and Spiritual ways.

What makes the OT god so different then the hundreds of others beliefs that used blood sacrifices, special days, and certain rituals? Is it not odd that the 'real god' that shows up uses practices and beliefs that were ALREADY HERE?

Please, I come only to make a person think, not to rock their world out from under them. I really do believe that many that follow the books (there is more then one) arent really thinking. They need comfort in a knowing, they need a hope fulfilled so they dont worry anymore. So they bank their soul on a belief, they claim 'faith'......but what if that is not what God intended for anyone??

What if God had the answers laying in the makeup of our environment all along? What if the word of God is in 'life' and only 'life'. What if God is so pure, you cant even understand how God wouldnt be 'coming' and 'going' from here and there. What if by you excepting 'one' belief'....you are stagnating your growth of your soul that should constantly be seeking a Divine Nature here?

What proof do you have to bank your soul on something you dont know, something you havent seen?

How ironic it is...we have a belief that God tells men to NOT KILL....but yet to reach salvation, there must be death, through killing.

I really hope people are thinking this through. You all tell me Satan is so evil and so sly.....are you 'believers' so smart that you cant be tricked?

Does your loving God expect you to just 'know' the right belief....and without that book telling you about what you need to believe, you would not have salvation?

I just dont see this getting humanity anywhere.

Originally posted by Grandma
reply to post by LeoVirgo

 

My dear daughter you know from where I come and I humbly bring my thoughts and "beliefs" to your thread.

ROMANS 5:1-2
"Therefore since we have been justified through faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have gained access by FAITH into this grace in which we now stand."

Yes, it is true my belief is in Jesus Christ as the true Son of the Living God. I have great FAITH and HOPE in my salvation and that one day by his grace I will see him face to face in all of his glory. PRAISE GOD!

How have I come to belief? First, my grandmother told me stories about Jesus and how much he loved me. That seemed to light a flame in my heart to know more about his love. At 8 years old I started going to a church close to our home. I can truly say that was a beginning of this unique relationship between God and I. I talked to him all the time and I always felt him close to me. That experienced sparked my belief.

ROMANS 8:16
"For you did not receive a spirit that makes you a slave again to fear, but you received the Spirit of the sonship. And by him we cry Abba,Father. The Spirit himself testifies with our spirit that we are God's children.

Yes, words of men but my spirit does cry "Abba, Father". I feel in my alone time the true oneness that comes between his Spirit and mine. It is a time of pure joy and having communion with my Lord and Creator. Yes, reading the scriptures are important to my faith but I also use other sources that I feel I have tested and I am not closed minded to hear another persons opinion about my faith or what they believe or not believe.

ROMANS 8:23-24
For in this hope we were saved. But hope that is seen is no hope at all. Who hopes for what he already has. But if we hope for what we do not yet have, we wait for it patiently.

I believe my conscience confirms my faith by the Holy Spirit. I wait for "it" patiently.

Love Ya Bunches,
Mom

Hello mom...Im glad you joined the topic! Im sure many will be glad to see your back home!

But, you also know where I come from. How does another man writing down that you have justice, through faith, prove anything to you? How do you know, that its not your actions and your heart that will be weighed....and NOTHING ELSE. How do you know that God is counting on you to put your faith in what another man wrote down?

Do you not think that the human mind is capable of 'creating' something through the 'need' for it to be true?

Why do you think it is that many NDE's tell different stories? Everyone doesnt have Jesus waiting on them. Could it be that spiritual freedom was made in a way that we 'picture' with our minds what we are comfortable with. Could it not be that we all will have a couple guides to lead us through what ever level of 'heaven' we reach and the images of those guides would show up to us in a way that is comforting to us? Indians see their own kind guiding them, often people see their own kind guiding them. Are all the people that arent seeing 'Jesus' in a NDE seeing a figure of Satan posing as someone else? If the Bible is THE ONLY WAY....and you KNOW this to be TRUTH....then these other guides showing up to people must be of Satan....how could it be anyother way....according to your belief?

The idea that we have a ABBA can also be a 'soft spot' for some people that desire a 'Abba'. Before masculine images of god came about, it was a Goddess that received peoples attention. I have heard some really strange talk of people fantasizing about 'crawling into gods lap' for comfort.....all I can say is things like that sound psychologically connected, that person is fulfilling something they really desired in life and didnt have. Our mind seems to work like this though, its a coping mechanism almost, to accept what you can handle, as well as what serves your needs.

You have no proof that Jesus was a ONLY son of God....but you bank your soul on this? This means that you have to believe that God left the answers to us through a book....a material object.

If people could just see the difference in what is of flesh is of flesh, and what is of spirit is of spirit, they would see where God really left the 'word of God' at....it was here before we were here, its something that can not rust nor be destroyed.

Do you need a book to tell you that its possible that God comes into the flesh and gets tempted as well as MUST die for our wrongs? For a message from god to come so far after man began to walk the Earth....how strange.

The book has you convinced that you werent worthy, without being covered in a Earthly material of blood, before you can enter Heaven. Geee....without that book, you would of never of found God.....God sure has a great plan to reach us huh?

The fallen angels bring us tings like writing...then God turns around and uses that 'wrong' thing they did and brings his 'word' through that writing?

Gods word is imprinted on life, in life, it is life.

You have experiences that allowed you to see Jesus and many other things. But what I say to you is we are made to 'co create'. How do you know that you dont have everything to do with what you see? How do you know that God is SOOOO great that after one judges their life....they go on to create what they are still needing for themselves.

You see it as you were allowed to stand at the gate of heaven because of your 'faith'.....I see it as because God is just that great and merciful of our long journey of learning.

I in no way feel your journey was done or over if you would of walked through that gate.....there are many levels.

So God wants us to bank our soul on 'hope, faith, and belief'.....?

How did people way back in time find God?

Ill give you a hint...

Think of your singing trees....

Much love
Me

Originally posted by The time lord
The point is that we are stuck in this not so perfect environment, it is not perfect and we have death and endless other troubles. The Bible events especially with Christ, brought a new order to society and the nations, there was no more tribal rituals that killed people for asking nature to bring rains or forgiveness, there was no more need to sacrifice animals, all this 2000 years ago became outdated, a new era was born.
Out of Christianity, men and women were united, democracy and tolerance was made official, hope for an afterlife and salvation not only for the Jews but for all of man was established. A new hope and a way out of tribal separated society where all is accepted but people had goals of spreading the news of Christ and the power of the Holy Spirit.

It is a balance for society and individuals, it is not overall strict, it is not Sharia Law of Jewish law or communism or dictatorship, it is a fair law in Christianity because to be too free it is freedom to kill, but to stay in its boundaries we are contained in a safety net.

This is why places like the UK and USA will crumble to extremism once it fails to keep it's Christian foundation alive, society will be a warzone, pure democracy without religion can only contain itself so far, if the believers believe no more there would be no more spirit left to hold back the extremist thinkers who will try and take over a system that is like putty and can be changed to their own image, the freedom to end freedoms will be in its place, uphold the Bible and they will scatter.


[edit on 16-10-2009 by The time lord]

This environment is not meant to be perfect, God made it like that for a reason. It gives us catalyst and natures to discern from.

You follow a book that leads the world in 'separate people' and 'separate lands'. People like to forget the OT and the nature of God back then....because the NT makes up for all of that wrathful nature. But you still base your belief that comes from a God that demanded man to kill and spill blood (Earthly practices) for Thee. I just ask, what is different about that nature from the Satan many book believers talk of? If God is jealous, angry, testing with temptations....instructs killings....then what is the nature of this Satan?

Are you saying that without religion we cant make or hold rules and laws? You should get out and meet more people I guess....I know many humbled souls that arent worried about any books, but they worry about doing right and doing for others while their here. They dont follow a book, they follow the feeling of 'what is right'. Through discerning the environment and feeling one has after experiences of certain situations, one learns what feels right and wrong. We can learn everything we need to with just paying attention and being more in tune with our surroundings, the things God placed here for our senses to perceive and learn from.

The world is getting ready to fight a war that is not spiritual but very very Earthly. Blood will spill...it will be horrid and dark. It will be because everyone fears that if Israel is not protected, being the Holy Land that it is, that they will be on Gods wrong side.....

The stage has been made for still the largest blood sacrifice to yet still come. The blood sacrifices are not over, the Elite have just made you think they are. Blood sacrifices are of a very dark nature and it is misleading many people from continuing in seeking and growing.

Just because you arent sacrificing an animal today...you still cover yourself in blood through the final sacrifice, do you not? So is the blood not on your hands by believing God had to have this happen this way?

What if its all misunderstood...that Jesus was a Jew who saw his people walking in Earthly ways and not Spiritual ways....what if he did not support any blood sacrifices and this is why he got angry at the temple and why it seems he didnt eat of the passover meal but yet used the idea of 'eating a body' as a symbolic of 'taking life' (eternal life is through understanding) gaining wisdom....what if the Elite twisted a humble mans words to make him something he was not....what if Jesus ONLY 'offered' his life because it is the only righteous thing to do sense he taught one must turn the other cheek and not fight for the life of flesh? What if Jesus's life and death are justified all due to what Jesus found to be a 'truth' of walking a certain 'path' of humble living and living for spirit and not flesh. What if this is the entire reason he offered to die was to show us how to walk a humble path also.....not a Earthly path that is full of blood, an Earthly material, that is of flesh. What if its ALLL about actions and behaviors, learning to be right and do right.....more so then just 'believing'?

No one is trying to answer 'what sense dose it make' for God to have to come to us through a book that offers us a certain 'belief' to bank our soul on.....

Seriously, where is the logic....? Did God really just expect us to just 'see the light' in these practices that were already existent in other beliefs?

I am not saying there is no truth or things to learn from any book.....I love books and would rather read a book any day then go screw off my time for a day. I LOVE to read and learn....feel a little geeky sometimes, I love it so much.

But I just dont feel the Spirit guiding me through books, it seems to guide through life itself....experiences, feelings, thoughts, behaviors....also nature, the power of the winds, waters, fire....storms....space....energy. Sure I learned about history from the Bible and I learned how to find the Holy Spirit of Life.....but ya know what....that Holy Spirit was not IN the book, the book just showed me how to connect to Thee by seeking humbly through all 'life', the things that can not rust nor be destroyed.

Originally posted by LeoVirgo
Its just that simple.

What if I am putting my faith into the wrong hands?

Thoughts?

Well are you worried about getting it wrong? Like let's say you did believe in Jesus, but he wasn't real and you got it wrong. Are you afraid of that? What are you afraid might happen if you did believe in Jesus, but he didn't really exist and you got it wrong?

Now I'll also wait for you to answer back with what you think some of the consequences might be, but usually when people answer me I get a hypothetical from my friends because many of my friends that debate me on religious topics are atheists so they're not really afraid of anything because they don't believe there is a Heaven or Hell anyway regardless of what they believe. So they're not really "afraid", but they will give this hypothetical argument sometimes like what they might be afraid of if they did believe.

That if they believe in Jesus, what if some other religion was the correct religion? How do you know that the other religion wasn't the correct religion and how to do know that you won't be punished for believing in Jesus?

Well I don't know. Obviously there is no way to know for sure if you got it right. So, the question is how is that fair to punish someone for that?

Well if you think about it, if that was the case, then that means every other religion works just like Christianity does too. If you don't believe in it you go to Hell. That makes all the other religious just as unfair.

Because if you believe you'll go to Hell if you believe in Jesus and you got it wrong because you didn't believe in the "correct" religion, that means whatever religion did turn out to be the "correct" one worked exactly the same as Christianity does. You had to believe in it or you'd go to Hell.

So, if it's fair or not doesn't really tell us if it is the correct religion. Whatever the correct religion was, would be just as unfair because you'd have to believe in it. That's just how religions work and it isn't just Christianity that works that way. They all work that way and that's why a person may be afraid of getting it wrong.

However, let's say there was a fair religion that wouldn't punish you for getting it wrong right? Well then, it isn't really going to hurt you to believe in Jesus anyway. Because even if you were wrong, whatever the correct religion was would still let you into their afterlife anyway because they understand that you got it wrong.

So, if your argument is that the "correct" religion wouldn't judge you unfairly for getting it wrong then you have nothing to worry about. Go ahead and believe in Jesus or whatever God one wants to believe in because even if you get it wrong it doesn't matter. The correct religion will be understanding of that and let you in anyway and they'll just say hey, you got it kinda wrong, but it's no big deal. Honest mistake.

However, if one fears that they'll worship Jesus and get it wrong and be punished for that because Jesus wasn't real, then you have to ask, how is the "correct" religion anymore fair than Christianity was? And if wasn't any more fair then why worship that religion over Christianity based on a fairness argument? Correct or not the alternative isn't fair either. They both send you to Hell if you get it wrong.

The only thing you have to worry about is if Jesus was real and how fair you think the religion is or isn't really won't tell you anything.

Now, why does Jesus want you to believe in him? Well, there's lots of theories to that, but the consensus is that Jesus wants you to do certain things. Like love, forgive, and help people and stuff to get into Heaven.

Some of the things Jesus says to do you might not want to do. However, if you believe in him you're more likely to take the things he said seriously. Our mental can affect our actions many times.

For example if I think it is okay to hit women I am more likely to hit a women. If I think it is not okay to hit women then I will probably not hit any women. What you believe is very important to how you will act. If I think Jesus was real, I am more likely to do the things Jesus told me to do.

Some of the things Jesus told me to do I might not want to do, like forgive a certain person or wait until marriage to have sex or whatever. Sometimes a person needs all the motivation they get. The more you believe that Jesus was real and not just a story the more likely one is to take that advice seriously and do the things that are required of them.

Not doing those things can theoretically lead to a life of sin and distancing oneself from God and such things that may keep you from going to Heaven.

There are other reasons too, like getting over the sin of pride so one doesn't worship themselves instead of God like they're supposed to. Like you're so afraid of being wrong because you'll look stupid you're more worried about how stupid you might look because you believe in Jesus instead of just doing what God wants you to do and things like that. You get hung up worrying about yourself too much and not the people you're supposed to be helping.

But these are just theories. Religious people have many theories on the topic, but who knows if any of them are right. Some of them are just as simple as because Jesus told you to and no other reason than that.

But that's something you'll have to choose to believe or not. One can take it on faith, but you can't really know. I don't know if those things are right. Those are just some of the theories that have been brought up to me over the years.
[edit on 16-10-2009 by tinfoilman]

[edit on 16-10-2009 by tinfoilman]

Here is ONE example, of a man's NDE....it seems as if its possible that we each have a 'personal heaven' or we do 'create' our paradise.

www.nderf.org...


But some would say, its not God he experienced, but Satan....

He was of Indian blood, he believed in a sort of judgment, he was told something that was not a former part of his belief, such as all the people (thousands of people) standing there waiting on him.....were all somehow HIM.

So again, we have a NDE that involves part of this mans own belief, as well as he found a new thought that he now incorporates into his belief.

Should he ignore his experience? Should he only believe part of it sense no book is giving him instructions for part of it? Shouldnt the makeup of experiences be proof for us to how God works or the nature of life works? Is there nothing at all to learn from experience sense the books dont talk about such things? How do we know that we cant interpret a dream....how do we know what it is that we are 'more capable' of......how do we know that God isnt waiting on us to MAKE THE BEST OF IT and bring Heaven to Earth through our actions, behaviors, and deeds?

I do know I would give my life for my children.....but I also know now that I will as well...not fight for this life....just as Jesus did. Does that mean I 'believe' in him......well I am not even 100% sure of his existent.....but I learned a lesson from the story, from the event, from his behaviors, from his responses to his environment. Our brain is wired to work this way, to learn from our environment and react to it with a certain characteristic, behavior....all also occurring to our past experiences and feelings from past situations and events. I think we need to step above the book, the material objects, and really start to walk the walk in a humble path of living a spiritual life, allowing for judgment to go to the hands and eyes of God....while here, we should love our neighbor and do right because its just the right thing to do.

reply to post by tinfoilman


Hello!

Thanks for your thoughts on this...

To answer your question...no, I do not fear that there is a right or wrong way through a belief. I dont fear that I will have it wrong so much as I fear that by buying into a belief that uses Earthly practices actually is causing stagnation to our species, as spiritual beings.

Does that make sense? I dont need to know Jesus was real to see that many things that are claims of his words and actions make sense. I can look through many beliefs and find a being to learn something from, it may be me learning that I dont want to be like that person or it may be that I do want to be like that person.

My biggest worry is that most of the world is still on a path there is much to learn, I fear that blood sacrifices is holding spiritual beings back from their birth right to grow while here in the flesh.

I worry about the ALL, not the ME.

[edit on 16-10-2009 by LeoVirgo]

reply to post by LeoVirgo


Ah, well I don't really believe in blood sac either. I do believe in Jesus, but part of my personal belief is that Jesus just gave us a few simple commands like love one another and don't judge and did what he did so we could get away from the old test laws and rituals where your whole life was based around rituals and religion.

He wanted us to focus on helping people and not doing anymore blood sac to help ourselves. I think he also believed we have other more important things to focus on hence the final blood sac because Jesus wanted us doing more productive things than that.

So perhaps that why he wants you to believe in him. Because it's the easy religion and if you don't believe he existed you can easily fall into believing in other things like going back to doing the blood sacrifices of the OT or believing in some other religion that takes up all your time in waste.

So he gives a simple religion. Love, forgive, don't judge, help the needy and stuff and then believe in me because if you don't you may end up believing in something way more complicated and you won't actually help anyone.

Maybe it was just to give us something to focus on to help us in our goals.

EDIT: and maybe you don't need that, but other people are just prone to worshiping something. Anything, just whatever there is to worship and that was a lot worse in his day.

Maybe he just wanted to use it to distract people from a bunch of complicated rituals like, if you have to believe in something then just believe in me and you're done and move on to what's important kind of thing.

[edit on 16-10-2009 by tinfoilman]

[edit on 16-10-2009 by tinfoilman]

reply to post by tinfoilman


And I agree...I think Jesus saw time being wasted, as well as energy, on Earthly things. I think he knew that in stepping up against these people, he knew the path would lead to them wanting to take his life. Later, it gets turned into the 'final sacrifice' sense the churches needed to tie the two times together.

But we have so many people that are still waiting to fight over land, for God. The belief that God desires a particular land....leads to war without end.

This is my fear, while living in the days of the expected return of a God that told men to kill for land. I fear its the perfect set up for Elites to take advantage of and force a dictatorship here on this sphere. The wars will force it all to happen. It will be so bad that a NWO will have to come about.

A NWO is needed, but would only work if the people can see why we need to unite....a forced unity just leads to rebellious people.

How will these religions ever offer the will to just do right and love their neighbor....if they believe they are chosen or their land is chosen?

reply to post by LeoVirgo


Well if you think I know why they fight over land I'm sorry to disappoint, but I have no friggin clue?

What I recall is Jesus said God would take care of it and to not fight with your fellow man. Everything else would happen naturally.

But like I said, I believe Jesus wanted to free us from the OT, but people can't seem to get that through their head. They still want to use the parts they agree with, like starting wars for land and killing homosexuals, to justify their own goals, but then they become tied right back to it because if they don't follow the other parts of the OT they become hypocrites.

But then other parts they say don't count like where in the OT it says to kill a teenager if they misbehave. So it's like, alright what parts of the OT count and which don't? Oh, only the parts they like right?

I think people need to stop tying themselves to the OT and focus on the spiritual. I think Jesus tried to free us from the OT, but we ourselves don't want to let it go because we want to use it to justify some of our actions that otherwise would have no other justification like killing homosexual because they're sinners even though Jesus already died for everyone's sins including homosexuals you know.

It's just Jesus just told us to love each other and let God handle the rest, but we keep becoming hypocrites by tying ourselves to the OT to justify our wars for the holy land and things like that, but then we don't even bother following the other parts of the OT that we don't like. So, why follow any of the OT at all right?

Just do what Jesus wanted us to do in the first place. Free ourselves from it and focus on love, but humans cannot seem to figure this out.

Perhaps that's why Jesus made the religion so easy and just had one or two real rules, like believe in me treat others how you want to be treated. Because collectively we're still kind of a bunch of morons you know?