Conspiracy in salvation through belief!

And what if....

What if we are so busy being morons that we fail to see God is waiting on us to make it right....instead of God coming to force rightful ways?

I just care deeply for others, I want to see us rise above hateful and separate ways so bad it aches me inside.

reply to post by LeoVirgo

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Oh that's a little more complicated.

What I meant is we're supposed to do what Jesus told us to because God works through people, but we're not to stray from that.

What God was saying is you don't need to fight wars and stray from what Jesus said and everything will be fine, but if it's not fine and there's no way to solve the problem without straying from what Jesus said then we're not to worry about it.

Try our best with what Jesus said, but if we have to stray from what Jesus said then don't do it at all and God will make sure it turns out correctly anyway by always providing us with another path if we need one so we don't have to stray.

We just have to have faith that he will do that, but not many people have that much faith. Even the believers rarely have the strength to wait for God to provide them another path when there seems to be no way out.

[edit on 16-10-2009 by tinfoilman]

Well being that Jesus is tied to a book that supports a separation of people for a land...its hard to distinguish what is right and wrong for some. If every believer of Jesus only loved their neighbor, then none of them would support a war in Israel of any kind. Its hard to support the OT teachings with the NT.

So I come back to....how important is it that people cling to a belief of 'only one right way'.

Thanks much for your thoughts, its hard to get others to talk about such things sometimes, especially without them throwing a book at me.

My best to you and yours
LV

reply to post by LeoVirgo

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Lot's of good info and questions in your posts. Loved it!

The only other conspiracy in faith is the feeling that maybe there is this greater being we are all giving our energies to and he is taking all the credit.

The Bible covers that by saying the Holy Spirit is shared and that we all become one with Christ, maybe that becoming One is a fear of letting go into the unknown and your spirit is having a battle with the leap of faith.

Of course the negative energies or beings will confuse you and that is their job, but the next step is to make that move, maybe lack of faith is what is holding us back, you need to try it out and put it to a test and overcome one self.

reply to post by LeoVirgo

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How important that is all depends on you. You don't have to cling to one right way.

There are people that say they do though and that's mostly what I'm talking about. They say that Jesus is the only right way, but then they often times disregard what he says and then they go do something else. Doesn't make any sense to me.

Even if there was more than one right way, most of us would never be able to figure it out anyway.

reply to post by LeoVirgo

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I'm sorry that you don't agree with God as regards Salvation, but I don't think he will change the rules because you have no belief.

You don't need faith for something you can see, by definition, it's there, it's tangible.

Faith is belief in the unseen - belief and trust in what God says - you trust God and that what he says is true. That is precisely how God knows you trust him.

The church as I believe you are defining it (as an organised religion) has nothing to do with it. The Bible clearly said that belief in the risen Christ is essential for Salvation, it never mentions any denomination of church.

If you trust God and believe his word, you are a part of his church, no matter where you live or whether or not you attend an organised church. So to say that belief is a tool of the organised church is just wrong.

"Surely, a Divine Supreme One would not hold it against me for second guessing my fellow mans words."
I cannot answer for God, but I suspect that not believing his revealed word will tick him off. This kind of comment shows that you have not studied the Bible. The Bible was written over many years, by many authors, yet a study will reveal that there is one message written throughout, and ultimately one author. If I were you I would trust the Bible rather than the 'Gospels of Peace' - whatever that is.

Jesus will embrace you if you turn to him with all your heart. Guaranteed.

You have made assumptions to someone you barely know. I study the Bible more then any book....my understandings came through the Holy Spirit, of how to discern the Bible. I dont expect you to believe that, for it was a personal relation that I gained understanding from. I have been on a path that no man could of taught me. I do know Jesus was real, through personal experience, but what good would that do me to tell others that I know he is real. Does that mean what other men wrote about Jesus and the Holy Spirit is truth???? That God expects all of these souls to believe and learn about Thee through a book? The masses are not seeking and are not discerning between Earth and Spirit.

Its hard, for my Earthly self, to not throw accusations back at you.

But I will say, God is a Spirit of 'ways'....these ways revovle around orders and cycles. The mercy is the justice, for the mercy creates a 'way' always. No lights will be lost. God wont be ticked off with anyone....but yet Thee waits for us to find understanding.

Asking people to just have 'faith' and just 'believe' takes away some of their logical reasonings....which shackles the mind and senses that God did give us, to learn from this womb that we call Earth.

I cant tell others to believe because I know something....so I can only show them a few pebbles that might be laying in that direction if they see a light from the direction I am walking.

To feel like one has gained Spiritual Knowledge is so hard because that one knows, only others could see it if they removed the shackle. I know that I cant just tell others that the Soul of Jesus and the comforting Holy Spirit has taught me to discern things....for it must be something the soul experiences for its own self. Same reason the Bible is not going to give Gods pearls to the carnal man....for there would be no real understanding.

We arent here to just be given answers and to be just given a way out. The purpose we are here must be fulfilled, there is no short cut, and this revolves around the law of cycles. You will reap what you sow. This was and is and will be. Nothing can stop that Spiritual Law, it is woven into how this world works.

I would love for you to go back and answer the questions I posted....

As to....what sense does it make, that Gods word is not something that was always here, will always be here, something that is woven in the template of the world itself for our sense's to pick up on.

I have found God, I walk with Thee and I humbly learn. This is how I have come to know the nature of Thee, which lead me back to re read and re study my Bible and books and history's. I did seek, I did knock....and the door was most defiantly answered. It brought me not a 'belief' but actually experiences. This is what I hope to happen for others, for them to learn that we have everything we need, it is already here and was here sense the beginning of flesh. Its not a book....its a nature.

Its not at all that I dont understand 'why' you believe what you do, or others do, I totally understand why others believe what they do. I ask....do you test it through the Holy Spirit? The Holy Spirit is unblemished....this nature is something that must be experienced, and it waits with patients and guidance until the seeker knocks in a honest heart, a humbled mind, and eyes willing to see the things that cant be told to us by other men.

My concern, is not for me, it is for others. Just as though when you tell me I might be ticking God off if I dont believe the word God gave me....you say this out of concern, I would hope.

If you felt God showed you something that was holding many souls back....would you stand alone? Would you understand no one is going to glorify you except the Holy Spirit? Would you be willing to know that this path would cause others to call you foolish and blind? Without a book to back you, without a religion to back you? This is not about me and God. Its about the masses, the majority, not seeking Thee in the ways of life that Thee meant for us to.

If you would like to tell me, what sense it makes for God to make the 'way' and the 'word' be passed to us through a material, earthly object that can be destroyed....then Im all ears for your words.

My best to you and yours
LV

reply to post by speakplain

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About my signature....

Read it with a open mind, with the unblemished Spirit in mind....do the words not show you something? Are you not willing to see when something sits before you? I dont support every word of any writing....but I discern and find the men that were seeking God for the right reasons, in a humbled path. Know the seed, you will know the vine. We can find exactly where we are from, what are purpose is, through discernment of natures (in life, in books, in people, in everything).

This is how Gods word will never become lost....its in something that cant be destroyed.....LIFE.

[edit on 17-10-2009 by LeoVirgo]

Faith and Choice:

What is different about those who respond compared with those who don't. One is the convection that the Bible is the indeed the Word of God.

What kind of instruction from God do humans need? When God created man, He gave us a high degree of intelligence, curiosity, and the capacity for learning. He gave each of us a mind that can gather and store knowledge and pass it on to succeeding generations.

God did not need to give us a book that contained information we could learn on our own. What we needed was a book containing information we could never discover alone - knowledge that was divinely revealed.

That is the information that God has provided. That is precisely what the Bible is. It is a book of spiritual truth. God's unfolding of spiritual truths to real human beings took place in real, physical settings and among actual historical events. The Bible , provides us a great deal of physical, as well as spiritual knowledge. It relates information on material matters such as giving us information about the creation of the universe and the ordering of our physical world. It gives us information and guidelines on nutrition and health matters.


Far too many fail to take to Bible seriously. They fail to recognize the Bible for what it is - the handbook for humankind provided by God for our journey through life. It is a source to be consulted in every life situation, with guidelines for triumph through adversity, joy, and sorrow. In times of plenty and times of drought (Spiritual and physical), confidence and doubt.

The Bible itself asserts its divine authority; it claims to be the very Word of God. It declares an understanding of mankind's purpose - to attain the awesome destiny planned for all of us by our Creator.

The Bible makes no claim to be an exhaustive encyclopedia of all knowledge. It is, however, the only book that can reveal the purpose for human existence. God's Word does not discuss every aspect of human knowledge. It does however, excel in the spiritual realm.

When we understand the Bible's spiritual significance, all other books pale before it. By reading and applying its revealed knowledge, we can reap immeasurable benefits both now and forever.

Faith is a expection in God. We reap what we sow. We plant the seed, but it is because of faith in our seed we have expection of what we will reap at harvest time.

As we examine the Bible for accuracy, we will see that when God's Word is spoken, we should listen


Peace as always,
Grandma

reply to post by Grandma

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As great as it is to hear about what you believe...you didnt answer my questions.

Would it not make more sense that God left all the things we need to learn from in life itself, in the cycles, in the orders of all things? Would it not make sense that the learning tools are in the things we can see, that hold life, that hold the Holy Spirit within it....without needing to filter through another man for future humans to 'count' on that the man was right in words he wrote? God wants me and all people to trust fellow man...the carnal natures....the ones who are not perfect?

What sense would it make for God to leave us word in a book...something that can be changed, added to, and destroyed.

Then....the Bible itself says....dont save up things that can be destroyed or rust.

I dont want to 'know' what you believe....I want to know what sense that it makes that your God left you answers in a book....as if you wouldnt be able to find God without that book.

I found out its not that hard to find God without material things that man has made.

Our tools for learning about Thee have always been here. They are not meant to fall in our laps as a guide book....if that was the case, there would be no purpose in seeking God. It takes away the true meaning of searching.


You say God left the book as a guide for our purpose. Well then I guess our purpose is forever to be in wars over a special land of Earthly value.

Many have died for this belief...its time for us to become better then these Earthly ways.

reply to post by LeoVirgo

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Let's see who some of "these men" you throw back at me were.

ALL of these men were writer's of the Bible and history has proven their existence on this earth.

Let's take Solomon, king of Israel, was a man of remarkable learning. The Bible describes him as having great interest and understanding in scientific disciplines. Solomon understood the movement of the prevailing winds about the earth and the hydrological cycle that brings rain (Ecclesiastes 1:6-7). He was a horticulturist creating a great assortment of vineyards, gardens and orchards (Ecclesiastes 2:4-5).

He was also a botanist and zoologist, understanding plants, animals, birds, insects and fish (Kings 4:33). He was a student of psychology, sociology and human relations, as demonstrated by the book of Proverbs.

But Solomon eventually realized that all his scientific material knowledge did not bring him satisfaction. His life grew hollow and unsatisfying. His concentration on scientific knowledge, without proper emphasis on God's spiritual knowledge/wisdom rendered life meaningless (Ecclesiastes 1:16-18). He concluded, after much retrospection, that man must put the knowledge of the Lord first:"This is the end of the matter: you have heard it all, Fear God and obey his commandments; this sums up the duty of mankind" (Ecclesiastes 12:13).

Now Moses is another example of a man trained in the physical sciences but blessed with a spiritual understanding. Moses was educated in all the physical sciences but blessed with a spiritual understanding. Moses was educated "in all the wisdom of the Egyptians" (Acts 7:22). With guidance from God he could separate the good from the bad, and undoubtedly his early education was of great help in his early education was of great help in his life fulfilling God's calling to lead his fellow Israelites out of Egyptian slavery and to govern a nation.

Other men of God were educated in the intellectual pursuits of their day. The prophet Daniel was a brilliant student brought up in the royal academy of the Babylonians (Daniel 1:4). The Babylonian Empire of Daniel's day dominated the world and was scientifically advanced, particularly in astronomy.

Daniel apparently saw no conflict between the scientific truths the Babylonians had discovered and the knowledge of God that he had held from his youth. Indeed he thrived serving rulers of the Babylonian and Medo-Persian empires as a high ranking government official. Daniel's education did not undermine his faith in God. He knew God's Word to be true and saw no conflict between scientific knowledge and Scripture.

We must study the Scriptures to gain eternal life. (John 5:39). But as time and inclination allow we should study the physical sciences as well. In so doing we will gain a deeper appreciation of the world our Creator has made and increase our faith and understanding of Him.

The apostle Paul understood that man stands to learn a great deal about Hs Creator by observing His creation. "Ever since the creation of the world his invisble nature - his eternal power and divine character - have been clearly perceptible through what he has made. So they have no excuse".

So, yes, men wrote the scriptures, bit I trust they wrote how the LORD led their heart and their pen.

It is God's purpose to give us a choice as to whether we will exercise a measure of faith. As American statesman Daniel Webster noted, the Bible is a book of faith. If we had evidence sufficient to refute every skeptic's misgivings, we would have no need for faith. This is not the way God has chosen to work. Everyone from Adam to the present has been called to live by faith.

In spite of mountains of evidence that can be found in favor of the truthfulness of the Bible, having believing faith comes through developing a personal relationship with God.

One way of seeking God is through careful study of the Bible. "it is no accident that the Bible came down to us through so many centuries with such accuracy and power. God intended us to live our lives by this book, and many people dedicated themselves to the preservation of its sacred text" (Paul Wegner, The Journey From Texts to Translations, 1999, p.24).

It just really comes down to this. Do we believe the Bible is truly God's Word? Do we believe God?


Love Ya!
Mom

reply to post by Grandma

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There are other writings that talks about why Solomon understood the waters and the air....which is because he understood how to control demons, such as the demons of the waters and of the air. Instead of saying that they would of been demons, I see it as the angels of the Earth that Solomon understood....the story even goes on that he had this power due to a ring that he wore which had the symbol of a right side up triangle and a upside down triangle lay over eachother, showing the signs of water and air.

Still...are we to dare place the fate of our souls on the fact that all of Solomons words were written down properly and that all of his words are facts that show he walked with God and knew Gods nature?

With Moses, I wont even waste too much breath. Moses caused many to believe that God was ok with them shedding blood of another man for gaining a land. We are still watching people die today over this. ENOUGH!

You are missing my point. Why would God use a material Earthly object for us to KNOW God....and then also teach us to not cling to things that are of Earth, things that can be destroyed, things of Earthly value.

The tools to learn about God are in life. Its all around us, it fills this entire sphere and the Universe. God didnt place guidelines in a object that is man made, Thee is not expecting us to bank our soul on the unseen....but yet knows that through the cycles and orders of the Universe and life itself, a humble seeker will find Thee and understand reverence for life without needing a book made by man.

Do you doubt that God used the world around us as a guide to understanding our purest nature?

Lift a rock, you will find Thee...cut the tree, and you will find Thee there also.

The word is in life, the word is life, the one thing that man cant create.

You can wait on the return of Christ and God coming to fix everything....but I am here for hope for humanity to step up and start making these changes ourselves. I am not going to help hold humanity back by telling everyone....just wait on God, the book says he will come save the day and come force a NWO.

Its funny to me, isnt the antichrist the one that is setting up a NWO also? I guess its ok to force such a thing, as long as you say its for God.

We must come to this kind of living on our own, by will, by choice. God wont force it. This sphere is meant to be a sphere of duality. It is exactly what it is supposed to be.

[edit on 9-11-2009 by LeoVirgo]

I heard something the other day and I think it's true, even though it leaves me feeling a bit uncomfortable. But a person doesn't have to "believe" in God to *live* a spiritual life.

Think of it this way, for the sake of discussion this is all fact. There is a God. Person A and person B are identical in all ways. Both have completed the work God wants for them (whatever you think that is). One simply says "I do believe in God" the other "I don't believe in God". Is one now downcast from God? They die right after saying that, are they going to different places?

This is where some Christians in particular are pretty nutty. They have a fixation on words and an irrational fear of God. A Christian would actually be afraid of saying "I worship the devil and all evil, now and forever", but why really? It's just a weird mindgame, God doesn't care. He's not going to say "Oh good boy!" Then "Oh bad boy, no saying devil worship!!" God doesn't change like some fickle human mind.

Christians also believe in instantaneous salvation, which is debatable and rather odd when you think of it. A person not concerned at all about God their whole life, on their death bed, gets blessed by a priest and accepts Christ as their personal savior, all within the span of 5 minutes, and somehow they're going to heaven?? I honestly like the idea that it is that easy, but....there has to be more to it than that.


[edit on 9-11-2009 by ghaleon12]

reply to post by LeoVirgo

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We (mankind) are material earthly objects so it makes perfect sense that the Creator would give us something we could relate to. He told us not to cling to things of this earth because they have no use for us in the Heavens.

Yes, I believe we find God through his creation and the wonder of it all. I, however, also believe in the Bible as His Holy Word. And I am willing to bank my soul on His Word as well as all else The Holy Spirit has to teach me.

Love Ya,
Mom

Spiritual blindness prevents people from seeing the Existence of God, the Messages of God, and the path to God.

The Bible may contain the Messages, the Path, evidence and inspiration...But the Bible does not cure spiritual blindness(Definitely knowing that God exists may not even do away with Spiritual blindness). Thus the spiritually blind would not benefit much from the Bible.

Sincerity, humility, good intentions, and a willingness to Serve the Creator are the kind of factors that would lead to a cure of the blindness.

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Faith is one side of a coin. The inseparable other side of the coin is "works".


One *WITH* the "Faith" side of the coin is expected to drill a hole through the coin to get to the "works" side of the coin. The spiritual God energy then flows throughout the entire coin, transforming it. Now the coin is a prized treasure.


One *WITHOUT* the "faith" side of the coin has an alternative route to producing this treasure coin. They can start at the the back-end. They can start with cobbling together a strong and durable "WORKS" side of the coin even though they disbelieve. Once the "works" side has been constructed the disbeliever may surprisingly discover that a tunnel from the the "WORKS" side of the coin to the "faith" side of the coin has been drilled for them and the spiritual energy begins flowing throughout the entire coin, transforming it.


The durable "works" involve dedicating as much effort as possible to ego deflation, prayer, and penance. The deflation of ego centers around serving others, taming the angry and unkind verbal responses, being giving, avoiding porn, etc. The acts of penance are no less important. Penance could be a cold shower at the end of ones regular shower and enduring the cold sensations as an offering to God for the conversion of sinners. This is not the life of the flesh, this is the spiritual life. The flesh provides it's carnal pleasures. The spirit provides it's spiritual pleasures.

reply to post by Phantomfire707

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Hello Phantomfire

Thanks for bringing great thoughts here. I guess my reasoning for the thread is that I believe (faith/fostering hope) that 'works' can be just as valuable without the faith in God....to transfigure ones vibration to a higher vibration.

To believe in God, like you said, that takes faith. So to have a belief without evidence that it is a fact, is faith in something you cant see or show another person. The claim by many religions is that you 'MUST' believe...if you dont believe, you are lost, you cant see, you cant hear, you are blind.

So my question, would a Supreme Most High One expect us to be banking our souls on a coin that is half faith and half works....or can it be possible, even more logical, that the coin is works and works alone. By God expecting us to 'believe' without our senses having proof of Thee, seems a bit strange.

Just having faith has caused many to believe God will come make a Earthly Kingdom in a special land. This has brought many wars. Just having faith has caused many to believe God wanted us to kill something for our wrongs, to me, this has only increased our negative karma. Faith can be very damaging to our species if it involves separating people, pride for a race, greed for a special land. How has this made us better? A belief that looses hope for the poor ones who didnt see nor hear...makes me wonder how much the 'belief' part holds water for a person to do right and achieve higher understanding, to move to 'higher ground' lets say.

Is one going to be held accountable for being spiritually blind...is another way I could ask the same thoughts.

LV

reply to post by Grandma

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Love you too!

Hi LeoVirgo,

/////Is one going to be held accountable for being spiritually blind......is another way I could ask the same thoughts. ///



Mankind is lost. For whatever reason it is difficult for people to sincerely ask God to be shown the way with intent to serve. And more significantly it is very difficult for people to put aside their own ego and self interest for a while and actually attempt to Serve God through submerging themselves in Good Works/Prayer/Self Restraint/and Penance.

If one is going to be held accountable it would be for the refusal to seek followed by the refusal to try wholeheartedly.


Regarding the merit of works alone. The type of people that would do something such as giving the coat off their back to a homeless person without religious motives, I would intensely hope that they have gained God's mercy.


"Blessed are those who hunger and thirst for righteousness, for they will be filled. Blessed are the merciful, for they will be shown mercy. Blessed are the pure in heart, for they will see God. Blessed are the peacemakers, for they will be called sons of God. "


[edit on 10-11-2009 by Phantomfire707]

I hope so also. Im not sure that a person that cant have proof of something can be accused of not seeking that 'something'.