Computers are conscious? (Ponder with oozyism)

reply to post by manxman2


"what it's told" isn't necessarily what you tell it. Pretty much any software loaded on a computer has it's own registry location, and much of it runs at startup, or has a background task. You could be telling your computer to do hundreds of thousands of operations every second without so much as getting near the thing, just from what you've chosen to use the machine for earlier. There is also, of course, malicious software that runs itself, telling the machine to do things you don't even have a say in.

reply to post by letthereaderunderstand


reply to post by letthereaderunderstand


Here, let me simplify it for you when it comes to the emails. What you just said about reviewing who sent it to you and the subject line. Computers cannot do this. They can't understand English or any written language yet.

When it sees the word Hello, all the computer sees is 0100100001100101011011000110110001101111 and that is ALL it sees. It does not know what the word Hello means.

If it helps, imagine that you have a very low IQ and the email is written in hieroglyphics. We can't teach you how to read because your IQ is too low (not enough CPU power).

Then I told you to filter my email. All you would see when you saw the subject line are symbols. All you could do is match them to symbols you'd seen before, but you wouldn't know what they meant.

So, I might tell you something like remove all the emails with the symbol Viagra and email sent from people I don't know. Okay, you can see the symbol Viagra, but you don't understand what Viagra is. You just see gibberish.

So the next day my wife decides to get a new email address. Also, she decides to email me a joke about Viagra which is not uncommon. Well guess what? It's an email address you haven't seen before and it has the symbol Viagra. According to my rules you delete it. It's spam right?

But then I get mad because any moron can see that was an email from my wife!!! lol. She just got a new address is all! But you didn't know that. All you can see is the gibberish and you don't even understand what a wife is.

We can't teach the computer to read because we don't even understand completely how humans read yet and a computer can only follow mathematical rules. If we can't describe something completely in mathematical terms to a computer then the computer can not learn how to do it.

When it comes to non-computable problems these are a class of mathematical problems that you'll have to Google. There are many well known ones and big prizes for anyone that can solve one of them.

They are simply math problems that have no equation that can solve them directly. Ever! no matter how much power you throw at it. Like the halting problem and others.

You have to go back to that old expression, do you want it done fast, or do you want it done right?

A computer can do it a billion times faster than you, but for some problems, it can never do as well as a human could taking their sweet old time like figuring out your wife got a new email address because it doesn't know what a wife is yet.

And yes, when you see someone's face like your mother or your father you recognize them instantly because you "know" them. But how do you know them? You have to describe it as a mathematical equation. If you can do that we can teach a computer to do it, but how do you know them? How does your brain do it? That's what we need to know. We don't need to know what the brain is doing like reading, we need to know HOW the brain reads.

Is it hardwired in? How is it hardwired in so we can hardwire it into a computer? Do our brains do like it a computer does where it measures all the angles of your face and the distance between your eyes and the size of your lips to see who it's looking at? Or do our brains use some other kind of math? Do our brains use something other than math to recognize faces?

Because if so a computer will never be able to do it like that. They only work on math.

So yes, the devil is in the details. It's easy to say, well yes we know our parents, but how do we do it? What's the equation to make it work? What's the trick? How are the neurons wired? Nobody knows this yet.

And back the throwing "badly", My point was, people don't realize how complicated a bad throw is until they sit down and try to do that as an equation. It's far more complicated than anyone could imagine once you realize that when someone throws badly it always goes a different direction. All of a sudden we're not dealing with equations anymore. We're dealing with randomness and that's very hard for computers to manage.

Also, computers aren't as fast as everyone thinks. If you tried to simulate every single electrical process going on in a three old's brain when they try to throw a ball "badly" it would bring a super computer to its knees if one didn't take some very smart shortcuts and skip some very important details.

We're not as far away from punch cards as one would imagine. One or two instructions is still all it takes to max out a CPU and lock the whole computer up if they're not put in the right place. Just one! They may be very very fast, but we don't realize how complicated we are too. 100 billion neurons and as many as 500 billion to a quadrillion synapses and we can only model about 20 to 30 million of those on today's top end hardware before they run out of power.

Got a long way to go and even when we get there, we're still missing the equations that make humans work. Fast computer won't help when you don't know what instructions to give it. We have to figure that out first.

[edit on 20-10-2009 by tinfoilman]

[edit on 20-10-2009 by tinfoilman]

Originally posted by mdiinican
reply to post by manxman2

 

"what it's told" isn't necessarily what you tell it. Pretty much any software loaded on a computer has it's own registry location, and much of it runs at startup, or has a background task. You could be telling your computer to do hundreds of thousands of operations every second without so much as getting near the thing, just from what you've chosen to use the machine for earlier. There is also, of course, malicious software that runs itself, telling the machine to do things you don't even have a say in.

the what its told was the proffesors choice of words not mine if your going to quote .. quote the lot.

everything you wrote is schoolboy knowledge to 99% of users and exactly what i was refering to with vista hanging until a forced reboot is required..

reply to post by oozyism


I completly agree.

Computers are conscious entities.
More conscious than rocks, perhaps less so than some animals.
Desktop computers are probably on par with small trees or shrubs.

After studying cognitive science and artificial intelligence for many years.
Consciousness simply means awareness.

I have deduced that awareness comes from negation.
So anything capable of negation (like when a rock reflects light) is also aware.
The rock reflecting light demonstrates that the rock is aware,
as it had to accept and reshape the light into the form which is it.

so this minimum awarenss be first density.
second density realm of desire, where plants and lower animals are,
some computers or sub processes even have desires or goals,
such as when calculating square roots.

then third density realm of choice,
a computer can make a choices,
either by assessing risk and making calculations (logic),
or with the aid of a random number generator.

Humans are also third density entities of choice,
though many practice it only marginally,
and most just follow pre programmed sequences,
such as what they are taught in school or media.
Much like a computer.

:-)

Originally posted by tinfoilman
reply to post by letthereaderunderstand

 

reply to post by letthereaderunderstand

 

Computers cannot do this. They can't understand English or any written language yet.

Many Anglophones don't understand English. Especially native speakers.
Usually having little to no idea what any particular word actually means (symbol to which utterance links),
just regurgitating phrases based on similar context.

Computers can understand language, and know the meaning of it,
Languages such as Assembler, C, Java, Haskell, Forth.
Most humans would break under the load of trying to implement in themselves,
a program as vast and complex as a Linux Kernel.
Yet an i386 can do it.

Humans have much simpler belief systems.
Like what they told me in school is "right" or "correct",
and when I hear something different I can say it's "wrong".

Also having sets of things that "need" to be done,
like eating, sleeping, and having a job.
Just beliefs that they deem "correct" due to past programming.

When it sees the word Hello, all the computer sees is 0100100001100101011011000110110001101111 and that is ALL it sees. It does not know what the word Hello means.

When this text is written,
All your eye sees is a bunch of photons,
But in your brain it is linked to different symbols,
and some symbols are triggered,
through observational learning,
you type some letters.

reflecting what you experience,
writing the program,
you have stored within.

When it comes to non-computable problems these are a class of mathematical problems that you'll have to Google. There are many well known ones and big prizes for anyone that can solve one of them.

They are simply math problems that have no equation that can solve them directly. Ever! no matter how much power you throw at it. Like the halting problem and others.

A computer can do it a billion times faster than you, but for some problems, it can never do as well as a human could taking their sweet old time like figuring out your wife got a new email address because it doesn't know what a wife is yet.

so can solve the halting problem in your head?
But it's a computing medium as well.
So you can't do anything the computer can't do.

definition wife be monogamous female endDef
computer can understand that,
just as well, if not better than the average person.

so if you ask it:
What is a wife?
it can say "monogamous female".

And yes, when you see someone's face like your mother or your father you recognize them instantly because you "know" them. But how do you know them? You have to describe it as a mathematical equation.

no, a mathematical equation is just a foreign language.
How would you describe it english?

See you don't even know what Know means.
I know,
It means having previous experience with something.
If i know the word "the" means I have had previous experiences with the word "the".

computer can remember things, by storing in memory, so can know things.

Because if so a computer will never be able to do it like that. They only work on math.

and language,
and physics,
and chemistry,
and consciousness.
Most of the things you do,
potentially more.

We "western" homo sapiens are just biological computers,
enhanced by electronic computer networks.

reply to post by oozyism


I am not really sure about that. You know that computers need electricity to work right. Umm i am a little skeptic but lets see

reply to post by lowki


Well I guess the best way to say it is to say, I guess you got it all figured out. Go program a computer to do that stuff then lol. Let me know when you get stuck. Which should be about tomorrow.

Computers don't work like they do in Hollywood movies. Unfortunately, I guess some people will never understand this.

So, a human knows its parents from previous experience? How does a human remember their previous experiences?

If you can explain how every neuron in the human brain fires when someone sees a face in English, then go for it. I'll convert it into the mathematical formula.

But unless you can explain what every single one of our 100 billion neurons are doing when it sees a face then I can't model that into a computer. I can't tell the computer what to do when I don't know.

So, like said. I know WHAT the human brain is doing. I need to know HOW. HOW does it know its parents from previous experiences? How does it work?

Well you don't know and neither does anyone else. Don't feel bad.

When it comes to language, physics, chemistry. It doesn't understand any of that or what it means. It simply solves the equations we give to it. Computers don't understand language at all.

Us programmers are good though. We can trick you guys real well and make you think that though can't we? But the truth is, the computer only does math we teach it and it doesn't even understand the math. It just does it step by step. All things can explained in mathematical terms though, you just have to know how they work. Some things we don't know how they work yet though.


[edit on 21-10-2009 by tinfoilman]

reply to post by tinfoilman

When it comes to language, physics, chemistry. It doesn't understand any of that or what it means. It simply solves the equations we give to it. Computers don't understand language at all.

There are hundreds of languages which computers use to communicate, I guess the key word is understand, but if they can communicate, that means they can understand right? Hence encoder, decoder..

But the point of this thread has nothing to do with the construction of computers, it is more soul based. My point was that since we are conscious, we make computers seem conscious.


Here is a better explanation by letthereaderunderstand.

The term "organism" (Greek ὀργανισμός - organismos, from Ancient Greek ὄργανον - organon "organ, instrument, tool") first appeared in the English language in 1701 and took on its current definition by 1834 (Oxford English Dictionary).

Maybe it could be looked at like this.

What does a computer need to turn on? Energy
What does a human need to turn on? Energy

What does a computer need to perform? Input
What does a human need to perform? Input

What does a computer need to solve? Problem
What does a human need to solve? Problem

What does a computer solve a problem with? Variables
What does a human solve a problem with? Variables

What does a computer need to be made? Another computer
What does a human need to be made? Another Human

Will a computer last forever? No
Will a human last forever? No

All we are doing is taking input from our environments and reacting with the programming we've received to the data we receive adding and subtracting those things which we were programmed to see as positive or negative to determine an outcome in an allotted amount of time.

Peace

Originally posted by noobsauce13
reply to post by oozyism

 

I am not really sure about that. You know that computers need electricity to work right. Umm i am a little skeptic but lets see

Yes but the point is that computers are merely tools similar to human bodies. I'll post the bigger picture in later thread then post a link here... I'm gathering sources to back up my point which will be interesting indeed.

Originally posted by tinfoilman
reply to post by lowki

 

Well I guess the best way to say it is to say, I guess you got it all figured out.

thanks

When it comes to language, physics, chemistry. It doesn't understand any of that or what it means. It simply solves the equations we give to it. Computers don't understand language at all.

Do you know what understand means?
Find meaning of input and demonstrate in output.

Yes computers frequently demonstrate understanding.
When reading a word or functionName, finding it's meaning or functionProcess,
and then performing any actions that may be related.

Us programmers are good though. We can trick you guys real well and make you think that though can't we? But the truth is, the computer only does math we teach it
and it doesn't even understand the math.
It just does it step by step.

just like you.
Only knowing the things we (what you experience) have taught you,
and you follow instructions more or less as they were given,
though perhaps your compiler does some optimizations.

All things can explained in mathematical terms though, you just have to know how they work. Some things we don't know how they work yet though.
[edit on 21-10-2009 by tinfoilman]

Really?
So far you haven't used math to explain anything.

Perhaps you have super spatial comprehension abilities.
But Math in the European or Western sense is a sexist language geared towards male brains good at spatial manipulation.

with all the symbols, and locations they are in, it's all so, up down, sideways, bring it over, under, sideways. It's just moving symbols through space.

We explain things in English or other human to human languages.
A math statement can not express anything other than symbols arranged spatially without accompanying human-to-human-language text explaining the meaning of the various symbols,
perhaps leaving it up to the reader to remember the spatial significance.

When programming computers math is used only as a tiny component.
Programming languages are used which rely on math in only the mildest of ways
(like counting loop iterations).

oozy oozy ozzy....where have you been all my life?

I want to talk to you on messenger or something one of these days

Ok so here is what I see in this thread.

Computers need electricity to run...so do we just in the form of chemistry as opposed to physics.

Computers can't make their own decision...I would venture to say maybe not yet...but soon. (to be explained more in the next point)

Computers have to be taught things...so do we...we are programmed as well. When we first get our computer it is a blank slate with the exception of preloaded programs such as Windows or Works or whatever we order. I consider this to be the same as instincts in humans. Humans have instincts for all sorts of situations from the second the come to life. So does a computer if you think about it. The PC comes pre-loaded with certains programs. When you turn it on all it knows is the programs. From that moment on it has to learn or remain a blank slate. If you type one character into MS Works and save it then the computer has learned. If you slap a baby's hand one time before it touches fire the baby has learned.

Computers have to be programmed...so do we...we aren't born into knowledge we must acquire it from the simplest things like how to walk and talk onto complex functioning. This is where the issue lies.

The key difference to me is processing power. I submit that the worlds most powerful computer may only have the processing power of say a 11 year old (totally making that number up for argument's sake)

The way I see it is a computer cannot function without being created but were we not created by our parents?

There's my pennies

Nice topic...damn nice topic

-Kyo

Originally posted by KyoZero
Computers can't make their own decision...I would venture to say maybe not yet...but soon.
-Kyo

Computers can make decisions using if then statements.

If this happens, then a computer will do something else it can do something else.
Also can make decisions based on chance or random numbers.

Though the rest of your post I agree with.
It is true that computers may have less processing power,
but they have far greater precision.

Biological memories are held in mostly water,
so tend to be a little wishy washy,
mechanical memories are solid.

[edit on 23-10-2009 by lowki]

reply to post by lowki


oh amen...how many times have we as people recalled a story only to find out 50% of it was wrong

-Kyo

What !?!

Go and buy a computer, turn it on, leave it in the middle of nowhere and see what happens. The absolute most that will happen is Windows will crash, and that is not and indication of free will. Now, have a baby and leave it in the middle of nowhere and see what happens.


A computer is only the sum of it inputs, programming and outputs. A computer cannot do anything that it hasn't been programmed to do, cannot learn anything it hasn't been programmed to learn and cannot think anything it hasn't been programmed to think.
We can't even teach a computer to teach itself, and this comes naturally to people.

To whoever said computers can understand language because they understand programming language, you need to understand that they only understand this language because we have built them to do so. And that is not the same as a human learns. You cannot sit in front of the computer for a couple of years saying goo goo, gaa gaa until it learns english.


Finally to anyone who does agree that computers are conscious, then you really need to learn how computers actually work.


[edit on 25/10/09 by GobbledokTChipeater] Wording and clarity.

[edit on 25/10/09 by GobbledokTChipeater]

reply to post by GobbledokTChipeater


Don't insult me by saying I need to learn computers. A child's actions are resulting from their inputs as well. From the day we are born we receive inputs. I mean you are certainly welcome to your opinion. We just differ in opinion I guess.

-Kyo

I am sorry I did not mean to insult you, but if you do believe that computers are conscious in the same way that humans are conscious, then you don't fully understand how computers (or humans) work.

A computer cannot do anything it is not programmed to do (this includes reading and acting on programming language), on the contrary, humans do new things every day.

I'll give you another example how computers and humans are different to add to the previous examples given earlier by others in this thread:

Say you go up and poke your mate in the ribs, he turns around and tells you to get lost. You poke him again and he thinks about it for a second and then gets up and pushes you over.
Now go up and poke a computer. The computer tells you to get lost. Go and poke it again, unless it has some kind of clever programming it will always tell you to get lost.

The difference is that the person can have a think and choose which action to take, whereas the computer can't think. The computer simply has to follow it's programming and do whatever it tells it to do, nothing more.

All a computer is is a logic machine. 'If this equals this and that equals that and the user pushes this then do this'. And it will do the exact same thing every time those conditions are equal. There are no decisions to be made as a computer, the programming tells it everything it has to do.

Originally posted by GobbledokTChipeater
I'll give you another example how computers and humans are different to add to the previous examples given earlier by others in this thread:

Say you go up and poke your mate in the ribs, he turns around and tells you to get lost. You poke him again and he thinks about it for a second and then gets up and pushes you over.

as your friend was programmed by your local society to perform.

for instance in Canada,
where people are far more polite,
due to more polite programming,
this would not occur.

to get someones attention standard protocol is
greeting (hello or hi or hey)
state question (how are you?)
state response (well or good or great)
appreciation (thank you)
reciprocation (and you?)

perhaps in your locality the programming of homo sapiens is different.
where rib jabbing and pushing is socially acceptable (common program).

There are no decisions to be made as a computer, the programming tells it everything it has to do.

just like how humans have school and other institutions to tell them everything they have to do.
anything genuinely "new" that happens is usually an accident,
a faulty circuit you might say,
that turns out to have some benefits.

[edit on 26-10-2009 by lowki]

Originally posted by lowki

Originally posted by GobbledokTChipeater
I'll give you another example how computers and humans are different to add to the previous examples given earlier by others in this thread:

Say you go up and poke your mate in the ribs, he turns around and tells you to get lost. You poke him again and he thinks about it for a second and then gets up and pushes you over.

as your friend was programmed by your local society to perform.

for instance in Canada,
where people are far more polite,
due to more polite programming,
this would not occur.

to get someones attention standard protocol is
greeting (hello or hi or hey)
state question (how are you?)
state response (well or good or great)
appreciation (thank you)
reciprocation (and you?)

perhaps in your locality the programming of homo sapiens is different.
where rib jabbing and pushing is socially acceptable (common program).

Wow, someone can get the impression that you missed the point.

Regardless of what the program actually tells you (or the computer) to do, be it hello or push, the point is that humans can make decisions independent of their programming. Computers can't.

Computers are told every single thing to do. They do not do a single thing by themselves. Every step of the way has to be told to it. People can easily forget this because computers are so automated, the user doesn't have to actually do much, but down below every single little thing the computer does it is told to do it.

Humans on the other hand can do things by themselves. The human programming you speak of makes a human more likely that someone will take a particular course of action. Whereas computer programming means that the computer will take that course of action, because that's all it knows.

A computer is no more conscious than a calculator, just a lot more detailed and in-depth. And I repeat, anyone who thinks it is needs to learn how they work because it shows a lack of understanding.

Would you seriously make the argument that a calculator is conscious!?

[edit on 26/10/09 by GobbledokTChipeater]

[edit on 26/10/09 by GobbledokTChipeater]

Originally posted by lowki

Originally posted by GobbledokTChipeater
There are no decisions to be made as a computer, the programming tells it everything it has to do.

just like how humans have school and other institutions to tell them everything they have to do.
anything genuinely "new" that happens is usually an accident,
a faulty circuit you might say,
that turns out to have some benefits.

So you mean to tell me that you cannot do anything unless you have been shown every step of the way?? If that is indeed the case, then how do we ever learn anything new? Faulty circuit you say? Yeh right!

So every time I do something I have never done before it's a faulty circuit? Every time I say something I've never said before it's a faulty circuit? Every time I think something I have never thought before it's a faulty circuit?

Are you so sure about this?



[edit on 26/10/09 by GobbledokTChipeater]