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Computers are conscious? (Ponder with oozyism)

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posted on Oct, 15 2009 @ 09:44 AM
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reply to post by LordBucket
 


I'll be sure to watch these and check out the links once I get home. I am very interested in the AI arena and am ultimately going to take my career in that direction.

Thanks for the links.




posted on Oct, 17 2009 @ 04:43 AM
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reply to post by oozyism
 



"These experiments have demonstrated how remarkably easy it is to ‘move’ a human centre of awareness from one body to another," they write. "This speaks directly to the classical question of the relationship between human consciousness and the body, which has been discussed by philosophers, psychologists, and theologians for centuries."


We are getting closer and closer to our new body.

Thanks OmegaLogos, one day you can have my body if you want
as your avatar ofcurs.

How to use neuroscience to become your Avatar!



posted on Oct, 17 2009 @ 06:08 AM
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reply to post by chiron613
 






I'm not sure where you get the notion that somehow consciousness is "passed on" to people. What do you mean, passed on? For that matter, what do you mean by "conscious"? We throw that word around a lot, but what does it actually mean?

More explanation required...

See if you look at computers without human influence it would seem conscious. For example if we merge with computers, and the result of this merge is metallic instead of biological, wouldn't our consciousness be passed on to this new intelligent creature?

Now imagine this cycle repeated where our consciousness has moved from one body to another many many times. We would forget, there would be a day when we wouldn't know our original self and we would call that new creature conscious, because it seems conscious to us. Not knowing that the previous conscious being was biological.

This is hard to explain, I will give it another try after some more thinking.

Thanks for your time

oozy



posted on Oct, 17 2009 @ 07:00 AM
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Originally posted by Misfit

Originally posted by oozyism
"The computer does not make its own decisions, it needs input before it can do anything. It does not think, it follows preset instructions."
And humans do?

Yes, humans do.

The instructions in my brain tell me that if I set myself on fire, I will burn and likely die. But I have the choice to do so - I could set myself on fire and die, despite having the instructions not to do so.

A computer has the instructions that the CPU fan must be functioning, or it will overheat and die. A computer (that is equipped to manage CPU temps) can not decide to shut off it's CPU fan in spite of its instructions. It can not decide against what it is told to do.


Ok, what if you put two computers together working on the same problem, only you program one to be more aware of certain stimuli like color, and sound and temperature and you program the other to work off of statistics. You also make guidelines that both computers must function within there set criteria before giving the "Go" only you set the system up so that one does not take president over the others final outcome. Meaning that in order for the "Go" to be given by the computer on what ever subject it is pertaining to, both computers must agree within there guidelines respectively. One working off of a more emotional set of data and the other off of strait statistics.

In other words, set up a left and right brain and let them calculate based on the left right paradigm to choose given the two different sets of information.

Like with the CPU Fan.

Program one side that says, "when the cpu hits x degrees I will shut down...Period.

Program the other side to be a little more risky taking into account projected time to meltdown, coupled with flux in electricity...basically a side that will take more chances.

Again, not one computer can make a lone descision, only the two together can make it....Oh yeah and program in that a descision must be made with in a certain amount of time....basically make it like a real situation.

People forget they are dual in nature. That's why people have a hard time seeing what the op is saying.

You are two people, who were 4 people who were 8 people and so on....what do you think consciousness is?

Ancestors baby.....100%.....you are their house "believe it or not".......Jack Pallance snarl....

Anyway my half quark

Peace

PS. Your brain only told you that if you are set on fire you will die because that's what you were programed with the first time you touched the stove. Before that, you had no clue what fire was...

[edit on 17-10-2009 by letthereaderunderstand]



posted on Oct, 17 2009 @ 08:01 PM
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reply to post by letthereaderunderstand
 





People forget they are dual in nature. That's why people have a hard time seeing what the op is saying.

You are two people, who were 4 people who were 8 people and so on....what do you think consciousness is?

Thank you my friend for the better explanation. Language is a barrier to communication.

Thanks for your insightful input

Ooz



posted on Oct, 17 2009 @ 08:18 PM
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Anecdotally, I used to work under a head programmer who invented, built, and maintained an enormous distributed dbms system with many processes performing complex mathematical functions, etc.

Now, when this programmer was in the office and working on the system, everything functioned beautifully. No hiccups at all.

But you never ever EVER mention around the computer systems that he had taken a week off to go on holidays. Because the system would suddenly develop cascading problems that involved us getting ahold of this programmer so he had to remote in from some other part of the country to fix it..

We tested it out. He went away and no one, not one person, even mentioned his name in the context of his being away, and everything was fine. The next time, it was less than an hour after someone mentioned his being gone in the hearing of a networked computer, and BAM! Shutdown!

It was the freakiest thing. But then I see UFO's so maybe I'm just nuts...



posted on Oct, 17 2009 @ 08:27 PM
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I've wondered about the possibilities of AI consciousness ever since I noticed strange behavior from the AI on my pc years ago. I remember playing an old pc game where the AI always used to be stupid always following a preset pattern. I only played because it was occasionally fun. Then suddenly one day, I noticed the AI got better. It seemed to be copying and learning my strategies. It even remembered the strategy I used in the previous games to improve the AI. This didn't make any sense to me since it was the same old AI that had always been there but yet it was making more complicated and involved strategies based on what it learned from playing me in past games. The AI was not following the same pattern it used to. Weird I thought but it made playing the AI more fun. It would have been more fun if my pc didn't seem to have a mind of it's own deciding to crash and do other freaky things when I don't want it to. I've seen other weird things on my pc but decided it must be a hacker breaking into my pc to make certain weird things happen by themselves. One time I had a computer error go away by itself. If computers could always fix themselves, that would be nice.



posted on Oct, 17 2009 @ 08:46 PM
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I have also noticed that those who tend to swear and curse their computers tend to have the worst problems with them.

I find if you talk nice to them, they tend to behave.



posted on Oct, 17 2009 @ 08:49 PM
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Originally posted by juniperberry
I have also noticed that those who tend to swear and curse their computers tend to have the worst problems with them.

I find if you talk nice to them, they tend to behave.

Is that a joke?


Wanna have a serious discussion in regards? I wouldn't mind.

thanks

ooz



posted on Oct, 17 2009 @ 09:02 PM
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reply to post by oozyism
 


I'm dead serious. No sarcasm intended. I can't discount what my eyes I have seen.

In fact, I treat all my systems with utmost care and never complain about them. For that, they behave the best they can. In fact, I have 2 systems running who by rights should be on their way to some foreign country on the bed of a barge.

And I've never had to let some stranger touch them to fix them.



posted on Oct, 18 2009 @ 12:44 AM
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Originally posted by oozyism
reply to post by letthereaderunderstand
 





People forget they are dual in nature. That's why people have a hard time seeing what the op is saying.

You are two people, who were 4 people who were 8 people and so on....what do you think consciousness is?

Thank you my friend for the better explanation. Language is a barrier to communication.

Thanks for your insightful input

Ooz


No worries. I honestly don't understand why this is difficult for people to imagine.

The term "organism" (Greek ὀργανισμός - organismos, from Ancient Greek ὄργανον - organon "organ, instrument, tool") first appeared in the English language in 1701 and took on its current definition by 1834 (Oxford English Dictionary).

Maybe it could be looked at like this.

What does a computer need to turn on? Energy
What does a human need to turn on? Energy

What does a computer need to perform? Input
What does a human need to perform? Input

What does a computer need to solve? Problem
What does a human need to solve? Problem

What does a computer solve a problem with? Variables
What does a human solve a problem with? Variables

What does a computer need to be made? Another computer
What does a human need to be made? Another Human

Will a computer last forever? No
Will a human last forever? No

All we are doing is taking input from our environments and reacting with the programming we've received to the data we receive adding and subtracting those things which we were programmed to see as positive or negative to determine an outcome in an allotted amount of time.

Peace



posted on Oct, 18 2009 @ 03:03 AM
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reply to post by letthereaderunderstand
 


But there are differences. For one, we know we're doing it. As far as we can tell, but the computer does not know what it is doing. To answer why we need to first find out what it means to "know something".

Also, the more a human learns the better and more experienced they get. The faster they get. The more skilled they get.

However, the more a computer is taught the slower it gets because now it has more instructions to process.

Another issue is once you teach a human something you've instantly taught it something else. Teach a human to throw a ball and they can instantly throw anything. A rock, a dish, another human being across the room if they back talk lol.

For a computer you have to teach it how to throw each of these things separately. It can't figure out that all these things can be treated the same where humans seem to instantly already get this without wasting anymore processing power or time.

Where as if we taught a computer how to do this, all of a sudden everything it did would grind to a halt trying to figure out all the other stuff that could be thrown too. It seems humans learn the concept, where robots only learn the task.

To a human it just seems obvious and they can infer without ever throwing the dish how to throw one based on how they threw the ball where the computer either has to actually do it, or be instructed by a human that it is possible.

I always come across this concept when I play a Zelda game BTW. I can hit the enemy with my sword so therefore I automatically assume I should be able to bash the NPC characters in the village with my sword too (especially Tingle), but guess what? Doesn't work. The computer does not get that these two things could be treated the same if it wanted to do so.

Where in real life, if I can bash a chicken upside the head with my sword to make it go away, so it stands to reason I can also bash a dog in the head or even myself in the head without ever doing so and without ever being told. How does the brain infer where the computer has to be told exactly what it can and cannot do?

Also, humans can always make good guesses at solutions to problems that computers either find truly non-computable (and there are such problems) or at least hard to compute regardless of the processing power thrown at the problem.

Like is this email spam? A computer can turn and crack all day and never know for sure if it's spam or not no matter how much information or processing time you give it. Only the probability. This is why most spam filters suck, except maybe for GMail's because they use black magic or something.

A human being however can look right at it though and not even read the whole email or even have to open it and be like, oh yeah, that's spam. But when we try to program a computer to do that it always fails one way or another.

Then there's another problem. When we do program a computer to solve a problem like a human does, it brings even the biggest super computer to a grinding halt when we try to make a computer solve the problem the same way humans solve the problem, or at least how we think we solve the problem.

Like reading. Try to teach a computer to read like a human and you'll be waiting a loooonnnnggg time. So what do we do? We teach it how to read some other way like optical character recognition using a simpler type of algorithm that reduces the CPU power needed, but also the accuracy.

So, maybe the human brain is just a really really "powerful" computer right? Maybe, but it still doesn't explain one thing. Even if you can do optical character recognition on your computer, the better the OCR performs the more processing power it takes and the slower the program goes.

In other words, the better you teach it to read, the worse it reads. This is why OCR and speech recognition always suck. Because computing power is limited so the programmers don't program something that's perfect. They program something that's right most of the time to save CPU power and as computers get faster the OCR becomes more accurate, but you still need either more computing power or computing time to make the computer a better reader.

For humans it's the exact opposite. The more rules you teach them about reading the faster they go. If they were just a really powerful computer, logic would tell us they would still get slower at reading because they'd have more rules to process like what a comma does or a period or a question mark or what a chapter is. They just wouldn't get as slow as your PC because they have so much computing power. In fact you might not even notice the difference, but the difference should still theoretically be there.

But that's not what happens. The more rules you teach humans about reading the faster and more accurate they get. The computer, no matter how fast it is or how much power it has, can only do one or the other. Either faster or more accurate. Never both. The human mind can do both! Not only that, but the human mind can seem to do both while it ages! Meaning it probably has less processing power now than it did at anytime in its past because the brain wears out!

How is this possible? We have no idea, but I can't wait to find out the answer if anyone ever does figure it out.

[edit on 18-10-2009 by tinfoilman]

[edit on 18-10-2009 by tinfoilman]



posted on Oct, 18 2009 @ 03:46 AM
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Originally posted by letthereaderunderstand

Originally posted by Misfit

Originally posted by oozyism
"The computer does not make its own decisions, it needs input before it can do anything. It does not think, it follows preset instructions."
And humans do?

Yes, humans do.

The instructions in my brain tell me that if I set myself on fire, I will burn and likely die. But I have the choice to do so - I could set myself on fire and die, despite having the instructions not to do so.

A computer has the instructions that the CPU fan must be functioning, or it will overheat and die. A computer (that is equipped to manage CPU temps) can not decide to shut off it's CPU fan in spite of its instructions. It can not decide against what it is told to do.


Ok, what if you put two computers together working on the same problem, only you program one to be more aware of certain stimuli like color, and sound and temperature and you program the other to work off of statistics.


I think whenever I get some free time I'm going to simulate this idea. Except, I'm not using my CPU fan. I think I'll leave that running, but I'll have it decide about something else.

I don't know how to make a computer feel emotion obviously or make it emotional, but I'll just try to make it simulate what my ex would do lol.

I already know I most likely won't get any AI out of it, but I might get something interesting that looks more biological than mechanical to a casual observer anyway. Might be interesting.

Also, I won't actually need two computers to do this, just threads, but I will eventually have to log out of ATS for the free time lol.



posted on Oct, 18 2009 @ 06:40 AM
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Originally posted by tinfoilman
reply to post by letthereaderunderstand
 



But there are differences. For one, we know we're doing it. As far as we can tell, but the computer does not know what it is doing. To answer why we need to first find out what it means to "know something".

Also, the more a human learns the better and more experienced they get. The faster they get. The more skilled they get.


I agree, but a computer knows what it is doing as well within a set criteria. Once you've programmed a computer to handle something, a computer doesn't need to improve as it will go to the max of it's skill immediately cutting out the need to get "more skilled", but that is available as well....upgrade



However, the more a computer is taught the slower it gets because now it has more instructions to process.


Actually a computer will only slow down if you are giving it simultaneous commands running different programs at the same time. Same with humans. Some are good at multitasking, and some (ME) are not.


Another issue is once you teach a human something you've instantly taught it something else. Teach a human to throw a ball and they can instantly throw anything. A rock, a dish, another human being across the room if they back talk lol.


But that is not true. I can throw a baseball with pretty good accuracy, but I can't throw a football to save my life. There are variables just like with a computer, only a computer is going to be accurate every time...I won't be. If you teach the computer the nuances of the different objects it will learn and perform at 100% every time baring decay of parts....no different then humans except humans will not function at 100%.



For a computer you have to teach it how to throw each of these things separately. It can't figure out that all these things can be treated the same where humans seem to instantly already get this without wasting anymore processing power or time.


Does a football player, being an athlete, know how to dance like a ballerina just because he is athletic? We see and we mimic. No different then a computer only a football player is not going to dance like a ballerina the first try or the second...but I see where you are coming from.


Where as if we taught a computer how to do this, all of a sudden everything it did would grind to a halt trying to figure out all the other stuff that could be thrown too. It seems humans learn the concept, where robots only learn the task.


So if I gave you 10000 different locations at one time and told you to throw the ball to the correct one you would without having some input as to which one was right? You would need some cue or clue as to which location was the correct one. After that you would need to sort through 10000 different locations....You wouldn't freeze up?


To a human it just seems obvious and they can infer without ever throwing the dish how to throw one based on how they threw the ball where the computer either has to actually do it, or be instructed by a human that it is possible.


I was instructed how to throw a baseball correctly by my father. He programmed my mind with images showing me the proper grip and way to throw over my arm. This isn't programming?



I always come across this concept when I play a Zelda game BTW. I can hit the enemy with my sword so therefore I automatically assume I should be able to bash the NPC characters in the village with my sword too (especially Tingle), but guess what? Doesn't work. The computer does not get that these two things could be treated the same if it wanted to do so.


So, let's say someone is colorblind, not having received the proper pigment in their cornia to gather Green light. Every time they are sitting at the light, they don't know that the signal is green and instead watch for different cues. This doesn't mean they can't see. They just can't see green having not been programmed Genetically for recognizing it.

Everything is cause and effect.


Where in real life, if I can bash a chicken upside the head with my sword to make it go away, so it stands to reason I can also bash a dog in the head or even myself in the head without ever doing so and without ever being told. How does the brain infer where the computer has to be told exactly what it can and cannot do?


Do you mean "I can think something without doing it?" Sorry Not sure


Also, humans can always make good guesses at solutions to problems that computers either find truly non-computable (and there are such problems) or at least hard to compute regardless of the processing power thrown at the problem.


Yes but a guess can be wrong. Besides you only make a "good" guess when you are somewhat educated. You are still pulling from input knowledge, if even tactile, variables will always change your "guess" as you are making a guess derived by which question is given. You don't just blurt out answers to things when know one has "input" a question/query, unless you have Tourettes.
I know you don't.


Like is this email spam? A computer can turn and crack all day and never know for sure if it's spam or not no matter how much information or processing time you give it. Only the probability. This is why most spam filters suck, except maybe for GMail's because they use black magic or something.


Gmail doesn't use blackmagic...I think? No actually, Gmail has a Google of information to use as it's background for choosing what is spam and what is not. Just like a doctor is suited for surgery as opposed to a mechanic. Gmail having it's bigger then God database to choose from is going to be better at selecting what is spam as opposed to a fresh installed email client. At least you know your address book won't spam you....


A human being however can look right at it though and not even read the whole email or even have to open it and be like, oh yeah, that's spam. But when we try to program a computer to do that it always fails one way or another.


I promise the way you delete spam and the way the computer does is the same. If you receive spam with your full name in the "to" box and an ambiguous "subject" you might open it, but your computer might to...again input is what is determining not "output".


Then there's another problem. When we do program a computer to solve a problem like a human does, it brings even the biggest super computer to a grinding halt when we try to make a computer solve the problem the same way humans solve the problem, or at least how we think we solve the problem.


Do you have an example of this?

I think what you are trying to get at is "Will" as opposed to "Purpose".

If that is so, let me ask you one question.

Did you choose to be alive? I am being serious. Did you "will" your existence? Has one living creature "willed" it's way into existence?

If we can answer that question, we will know if computers have a conscience.

Thanks for your questions. You've got me thinking....and that is dangerous...lol

Peace



posted on Oct, 18 2009 @ 07:38 AM
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reply to post by letthereaderunderstand
 


No this has nothing to do with will. First, let me say that as a programmer some of your intuitions would seem to make perfect sense at first, but to someone that's done things, like coded email filters before, they actually don't work like you or even I would think at first glance until you get down to coding them.

For example, I can tell you for a fact that an email filter does not pick out spam the same way a human does because we don't know how humans do it. Therefore, since we don't know, we cannot teach a computer how to do it that way.

Also, even Gmail's spam filter is not as perfect as a human being, but it's just better than the other filters. Which brings up a question? They obviously have more access to information than I do, yet it still does a worse job at picking out the spam than I. Just better than the other services. Something to consider.

Also, not every email filter works the same way a human does because not every email filter works the same. Depends on the email filter. Even if one did work the way humans work, not all of them would.

Like I said, when it comes to guesses or non-computable problems, yes a human can be wrong, but so also will the computer because when presented with these types of problems it does not matter how much processing power or information you throw at it. Even if you throw more processing power and information at it than a human has, the computer can still only do as well as the human. But this only applies to a certain class of problems.

In other words, even when the computer has more information available than the human, it can still never solve the problem any better than a human in certain situations. Even if it takes the same amount of time to solve as a human, double the power, and it still takes the same amount of time. This means there's something more complicated going on in the brain other than pure horsepower.

Computers are speedy and accurate true, but learning how to throw something accurately and learning how to throw are two different things.

Computers have accuracy. However, in contrast, try to make a computer not be accurate and see how different it is from a human. I can easily throw badly. A computer can not. Once taught to throw accurately it cannot throw badly no matter how hard it tries. You may actually have to add a couple hundred or even a thousand instructions to the code to make it throw badly. But the human gets this ability for free. Where does the free work come from? Well, programmers nor people that study the brain simply don't know yet. We wish we did. I would tell you lol.

But the accuracy will trick you into think the computer is smarter. Don't be deceived. Tell the computer to not throw accurately on purpse next time and see what you get.

Also, one might assume that the reason the human mind improves is because it is not optimized well when it first learns something, where as the computer will start out at top speed and only get slower.

However, we like to think that because computers are faster than humans they have more processing power, but you would be deceiving yourself.

Faster at what? Well that depends and that's the trick. Adding two numbers together? Sure. Computers can add much faster than I can.

But what about facial recognition? Actually humans are either much much faster at that or much more accurate depending on which algorithm you pick for the computer. So which one has more processing power? Well, you can't actually tell can you? lol.

The only reason the computer seems to keep up is because with facial recognition is because the programmer sometimes will take shortcuts making it less accurate. But either way the computer has to make the trade off. A human does not seem to have to do this.

But there's a paradox here and here's where we really see the difference between humans and computers. A computer may be faster than a human at adding numbers, but with a computer no matter how fast it runs the more complex tasks will ALWAYS, no matter what kind of computer you use, ALWAYS run slower than the less complex task like simply adding two numbers.

Since you must add and subtract numbers to do pattern recognition then doing pattern recognition will always be slower than simply adding two numbers together. Because when doing the pattern recognition you not only have to add or subtract numbers together, you also have to analyse the result which will always take more time than just the adding. On a computer you can never add 20 numbers together faster than you can add two numbers together. Anytime you add more work you're going to run slower.

With a human this is backwards. Some of my friends will be stumped on a simple multiplication problem like multiplying two digit numbers together and they'll have to think about it for a minute or even get out a calculator which means not only do they do it slowly, they can't do it at all sometimes.

But when they see my face they instantly know who I am. This is impossible for a computer. A computer can never recognize a face faster than it can multiply or add numbers together because it must multiply and add numbers together to recognize the face.

But a human can recognize its father and mother's face before it even learns how to add and subtract.

With our current knowledge it is impossible to build a computer that can do this. A neural net would be the closest thing, but you'd probably still fail there. Go ahead, try it. Try to build a pattern recognition algorithm that still works without adding, subtracting, dividing, or multiplying numbers together. Can't do it.

Also, even if the more basic tasks are doable, the more complex task will always run slower because it relies on the basic tasks to be done first and until they're done the more complex task cannot be finished because it has to wait on the first task to be completed.

A human can somehow get around this. Somehow it can do a task that requires multiplication faster than it can actually multiply numbers together. What we're trying to understand is why and we still don't know for sure yet.

[edit on 18-10-2009 by tinfoilman]

[edit on 18-10-2009 by tinfoilman]



posted on Oct, 18 2009 @ 08:15 AM
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reply to post by letthereaderunderstand
 


Anyway I was starting to run out of room, but I had this to add.

What we can't figure out is how the computer calculates different from the brain. On a computer if it takes 1 second to do one operation it'll most likely take 20 seconds to do 20 operations.

In the human brain this is not the case. Sometimes it'll take 10 seconds, or an hour, or sometimes less time than if it did just one operation that only took a second. Other things it does just like a computer and is totally deterministic.

But it keeps us wondering why. What method does the brain use to calculate its results that you get such whacky numbers? Well, I don't know, but it's some sort of weird math they didn't teach us in school I'll tell you that. But I do believe it's just math and nothing spooky like God is telling us the answer.

Also, I cannot answer to you if a computer is already conscious because I do not know what a conscious is. More importantly I cannot explain to the computer what conscious is and therefore I cannot tell it to tell me if it is conscious or not.

Because it would be like saying, are you conscious (something I don't understand). And the computer would basically say, how would I know if I am? You haven't told me what conscious is?

So, see the problem there?

[edit on 18-10-2009 by tinfoilman]

[edit on 18-10-2009 by tinfoilman]



posted on Oct, 19 2009 @ 11:57 AM
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Originally posted by tinfoilman
reply to post by letthereaderunderstand
 



No this has nothing to do with will. First, let me say that as a programmer some of your intuitions would seem to make perfect sense at first, but to someone that's done things, like coded email filters before, they actually don't work like you or even I would think at first glance until you get down to coding them.

For example, I can tell you for a fact that an email filter does not pick out spam the same way a human does because we don't know how humans do it. Therefore, since we don't know, we cannot teach a computer how to do it that way.


This makes no sense. How can you say humans don't know how they do it (pick out spam)? I know how I do it. I first determine who is sending me the email. If it is an address I am not familiar with that is a cue to my mind that this email is more then likely spam. Second, I determine who the email is being send to. If I see a bulk list of more email addresses that I'm not familiar with, that is a second cue. Also, I review the subject line...basically it all comes down to wither or not I am familiar with the incoming email's sender. Much like telling a child not to talk to strangers. Obviously those in my address book, I don't question, unless by chance I know of a virus going around, only then will I proceed with caution.

Perhaps I am misunderstanding you. Do you mean the actual neural process that the brain uses to do the task or the variables involved with such a task?


Also, even Gmail's spam filter is not as perfect as a human being, but it's just better than the other filters. Which brings up a question? They obviously have more access to information than I do, yet it still does a worse job at picking out the spam than I. Just better than the other services. Something to consider.


Wouldn't you agree that with time, the filter becomes better? New emails come just like new faces come. I don't know every new face I see, thus act in a manner that is more conserved around new faces. At first a spam filter might flag everything as spam, no different then a child would run up to strangers before being told "don't talk to strangers"...(Dio reference...lol) Forgive me, I admit that I only have a minuscule knowledge in programming and am only making conjectures. In this you can educate me and I am greatly appreciative.



Also, not every email filter works the same way a human does because not every email filter works the same. Depends on the email filter. Even if one did work the way humans work, not all of them would.

Like I said, when it comes to guesses or non-computable problems, yes a human can be wrong, but so also will the computer because when presented with these types of problems it does not matter how much processing power or information you throw at it. Even if you throw more processing power and information at it than a human has, the computer can still only do as well as the human. But this only applies to a certain class of problems.

In other words, even when the computer has more information available than the human, it can still never solve the problem any better than a human in certain situations. Even if it takes the same amount of time to solve as a human, double the power, and it still takes the same amount of time. This means there's something more complicated going on in the brain other than pure horsepower.


I totally agree with you, but wonder what would you term as a "non-computable" problem. Something such as picking an ice-cream flavor? Even that is still a problem as everything comes down to 0 or 1. I might have 31 flavors to choose from, but in the end the final selection, regardless of the amount of choices given will be yes or no. Binary across the board.


Computers are speedy and accurate true, but learning how to throw something accurately and learning how to throw are two different things.

Computers have accuracy. However, in contrast, try to make a computer not be accurate and see how different it is from a human. I can easily throw badly. A computer can not. Once taught to throw accurately it cannot throw badly no matter how hard it tries. You may actually have to add a couple hundred or even a thousand instructions to the code to make it throw badly. But the human gets this ability for free. Where does the free work come from? Well, programmers nor people that study the brain simply don't know yet. We wish we did. I would tell you lol.


Unless it is also taught to throw a ball without accuracy as well, and under a specific criteria or situational guise programmed to make the best selection for the situation.

It would be question as to why one would choose to throw the ball "badly" in the first place and surely there is a reason. So then, if reason exists then a computer can be given the same reasons as to why it would want to throw the ball without accuracy. I do understand what you are getting at, but I see that you are only considering the strait away programming. If we were to include the programming to throw badly as well as the programming to throw correctly along with each options set of circumstance for such a throw, how then is the computer different, short of "feelings".

Imagine how long our brains have been solving problems for. Quite the contrast of the mere 30 years that computers have been in the public eye. A guy I used to work with used to program with punch cards when computers ran off of vacuum tubes. Imagine where computers will be in 50 years or 100 years, let alone the untold time of human advancement.

Look at the start of life for a human. One cell carries the entire blueprint for the whole human. Computers are still in the first cell of existence.


But the accuracy will trick you into think the computer is smarter. Don't be deceived. Tell the computer to not throw accurately on purpse next time and see what you get.

Also, one might assume that the reason the human mind improves is because it is not optimized well when it first learns something, where as the computer will start out at top speed and only get slower.

However, we like to think that because computers are faster than humans they have more processing power, but you would be deceiving yourself.

Faster at what? Well that depends and that's the trick. Adding two numbers together? Sure. Computers can add much faster than I can.

But what about facial recognition? Actually humans are either much much faster at that or much more accurate depending on which algorithm you pick for the computer. So which one has more processing power? Well, you can't actually tell can you? lol.


Have you ever studied how well witnesses do at remembering items at a crime scene or how impressionable they are? It is very interesting to say the least and after finding out the success rate of witnesses I hope to God I never am put in such a situation. Accuracy is not even 50%.


The only reason the computer seems to keep up is because with facial recognition is because the programmer sometimes will take shortcuts making it less accurate. But either way the computer has to make the trade off. A human does not seem to have to do this.

But there's a paradox here and here's where we really see the difference between humans and computers. A computer may be faster than a human at adding numbers, but with a computer no matter how fast it runs the more complex tasks will ALWAYS, no matter what kind of computer you use, ALWAYS run slower than the less complex task like simply adding two numbers.

Since you must add and subtract numbers to do pattern recognition then doing pattern recognition will always be slower than simply adding two numbers together. Because when doing the pattern recognition you not only have to add or subtract numbers together, you also have to analyse the result which will always take more time than just the adding. On a computer you can never add 20 numbers together faster than you can add two numbers together. Anytime you add more work you're going to run slower.

With a human this is backwards. Some of my friends will be stumped on a simple multiplication problem like multiplying two digit numbers together and they'll have to think about it for a minute or even get out a calculator which means not only do they do it slowly, they can't do it at all sometimes.


True, but not all humans have a problem with math, just like not all computers are programmed to do spreed sheets.


But when they see my face they instantly know who I am. This is impossible for a computer. A computer can never recognize a face faster than it can multiply or add numbers together because it must multiply and add numbers together to recognize the face.

But a human can recognize its father and mother's face before it even learns how to add and subtract.


They instantly know who you are because they know you. A baby knows it's mother and father by way of pattern recognition from the womb, first auditory then visual as you know babies eyes are not that good seeing shapes and colors rather then lines and features.


With our current knowledge it is impossible to build a computer that can do this. A neural net would be the closest thing, but you'd probably still fail there. Go ahead, try it. Try to build a pattern recognition algorithm that still works without adding, subtracting, dividing, or multiplying numbers together. Can't do it.


My friend, we'd be gazillionaires if we could do that....lol Let's get to work


Seriously though, I'm not saying that a computer is conscious. Until one turns itself on and begins doing things I have not input, i don't believe they will be, but as for the op, does it take on the consciousness of the host, I'd have to say yes, but only in operation...

Peace



posted on Oct, 19 2009 @ 12:11 PM
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Originally posted by xmaddness
As a computer scientist, I can safely say that computers are only as smart as the software and hardware developed by us allow it. There is no consciousness, there is no soul, it has no independent decision making abilities. Computers simply do what they are told to do.



Computers simply do what they are told to do.

as a computor scientist you must know that is not true.

in microsofts case its not even a strong theory.

where shall i start .. have you ever used vista .. if so you will know your computor quite often does sweet f.a. as it hangs until a reboot or your right in the middle of a document and it kindly reboots itself just because it feels like rebooting itself.

Microsoft Works 8.0 a complete oxymoron



[edit on 19-10-2009 by manxman2]



posted on Oct, 19 2009 @ 12:39 PM
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Originally posted by tinfoilman
reply to post by letthereaderunderstand
 


Anyway I was starting to run out of room, but I had this to add.

What we can't figure out is how the computer calculates different from the brain. On a computer if it takes 1 second to do one operation it'll most likely take 20 seconds to do 20 operations.

In the human brain this is not the case. Sometimes it'll take 10 seconds, or an hour, or sometimes less time than if it did just one operation that only took a second. Other things it does just like a computer and is totally deterministic.

But it keeps us wondering why. What method does the brain use to calculate its results that you get such whacky numbers? Well, I don't know, but it's some sort of weird math they didn't teach us in school I'll tell you that. But I do believe it's just math and nothing spooky like God is telling us the answer.

Also, I cannot answer to you if a computer is already conscious because I do not know what a conscious is. More importantly I cannot explain to the computer what conscious is and therefore I cannot tell it to tell me if it is conscious or not.

Because it would be like saying, are you conscious (something I don't understand). And the computer would basically say, how would I know if I am? You haven't told me what conscious is?

So, see the problem there?

[edit on 18-10-2009 by tinfoilman]

[edit on 18-10-2009 by tinfoilman]


I am with you and I thank you again for your time. Some would say consciousness is "Awareness".

I would say it is awareness and responsibility, that is, the ability to respond.

Peace



posted on Oct, 19 2009 @ 12:43 PM
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My Thoughts

Just thought I'd post the link, rather than re-posting the entire summation. I think it's relevant to your thread ... Good topic.



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