Originally posted by GobbledokTChipeater

Would you seriously make the argument that a calculator is conscious!?

[edit on 26/10/09 by GobbledokTChipeater]

A calculator can be aware,
just as a rock,
so in that sense conscious.

A calculator even has desires,
as it calculates square roots and things,
it begins a calculation,
and then desires to complete it,
so it can go back to a lower energy state,
just like electrons in an atom.

Originally posted by GobbledokTChipeater

Originally posted by lowki

Originally posted by GobbledokTChipeater
There are no decisions to be made as a computer, the programming tells it everything it has to do.

just like how humans have school and other institutions to tell them everything they have to do.
anything genuinely "new" that happens is usually an accident,
a faulty circuit you might say,
that turns out to have some benefits.

So you mean to tell me that you cannot do anything unless you have been shown every step of the way?? If that is indeed the case, then how do we ever learn anything new? Faulty circuit you say? Yeh right!

So every time I do something I have never done before it's a faulty circuit? Every time I say something I've never said before it's a faulty circuit? Every time I think something I have never thought before it's a faulty circuit?

Are you so sure about this?
[edit on 26/10/09 by GobbledokTChipeater]

a rearranging of circuits if you so prefer to call it.

In fact very large programs are unpredictable,
and do things a computer programmer can not predict,
no matter how much training and knowledge of it's supposed workings they have.

Windows computers crash after a time, as they accumulate a number of faults, or unexpected results, from rearranged memories and processes,
more than can be handled by the computer,
and so it hangs.

comparing calculators and desktops is like comparing mice and dogs.
dogs are clearly more intelligent and with a wider variety of unpredictability.

even calculators can have unpredictable floating point calculation results,
-- though due to their solid state nature that result is consistent,
from the short time we experience them.

When calculators or computers stop working as we expect them to,
typically westerners just throw them out,
though some people replace these parts with phantom anomalies,
of faulty or rearranged workings.

[edit on 27-10-2009 by lowki]

for one sec I though you were right

but then I just changed my mind, you seem "crazy" lol

just think with me

yes, I understand, every computer is conscious because its affected by conscious beeings

but you cant say that computers will create other computers based on that

the computer inteligence, until now, its based on codes made by humans, like

if you create a thread with computers in the name
then delete this thread
else
dont do nothing

so, computers follow orders, so, they will never be able to create things that arent progammed, until we can kind of find a system to simulate our brain and take stimulous to the computers, so they can learn and create like us

but, yes, you can say that computers are conscious because they are affected by humans, but they are not conscious like us, they will never be able to work without our intervention ... off course, maybe someday we can but not now

Originally posted by lowki

Originally posted by GobbledokTChipeater

Would you seriously make the argument that a calculator is conscious!?

[edit on 26/10/09 by GobbledokTChipeater]

A calculator can be aware,
just as a rock,
so in that sense conscious.

A calculator even has desires,
as it calculates square roots and things,
it begins a calculation,
and then desires to complete it,
so it can go back to a lower energy state,
just like electrons in an atom.

Yeh right dude. You go on believing that calculators are aware and have consciousness.

A calculator does not have desires. A calculator does what it's told, nothing more, nothing less.

Originally posted by lowki
In fact very large programs are unpredictable,
and do things a computer programmer can not predict,
no matter how much training and knowledge of it's supposed workings they have.

Windows computers crash after a time, as they accumulate a number of faults, or unexpected results, from rearranged memories and processes,
more than can be handled by the computer,
and so it hangs.
[edit on 27-10-2009 by lowki]

Wrong. No program is unpredictable. If that was indeed the case then it would be very hard to write any program. Faults occur from bad programming or faulty hardware. In windows' case, it's usually bad programming.

Originally posted by lowki
even calculators can have unpredictable floating point calculation results,
-- though due to their solid state nature that result is consistent,
from the short time we experience them.
[edit on 27-10-2009 by lowki]

What !?!

No, the floating point operation will be predictable. Not quite as accurate as a fixed-point operation on the same machine but will definitely be predictable.

How do you think people find it possible to write programs on computers that are inconsistent and unpredictable? Because they aren't. The only thing inconsistent and unpredictable about (modern) computers is people (from the design engineer to the programmer to the end-user).

Now I will admit that I have only the slightest clue about computer programming, however I thoroughly understand and have written many, many programs for microcontrollers, which, once you get down to it, are a simple computer (or is a PC a complex microcontroller?).

Edit: When programming microcontrollers in assembly language it is necessary to control every single step of the microprocessor (at 5 million operation per second) at the bit (or byte) level. I wish they were intelligent.

[edit on 27/10/09 by GobbledokTChipeater]

Originally posted by Faiol
for one sec I though you were right

but then I just changed my mind, you seem "crazy" lol

crazy is something harmful to self or others.

I'm actually quite safe and happy.

yes, I understand, every computer is conscious because its affected by conscious beeings

no. not because.
Rocks are aware.
Computers are aware, have desires and can make choices.

but you cant say that computers will create other computers based on that

a human by themselves or even in a pair have not created a computer from scratch.

computers working together make computers quite frequently.
That's how they got to you.

Sure, there was some "supervision" by homo-sapiens. and there are still homo-sapien miners.
Eventually they can be taken out of the loop.

And we could have self-reproducing robots hives.

I'd love to have a robot host body

the computer inteligence, until now, its based on codes made by humans, like

the human intelligence even now, is based on codes made by historical humans,
perhaps some of those codes from aliens.

so, computers follow orders, so, they will never be able to create things that arent progammed,

Same with the vast majority of humans.
What human does any creating they aren't programmed nowadays?

Not anyone that works for the capitalist regimen, since all those people are programmed (told and given money as incentive) to do what they say.

Perhaps that's one of the reasons this planet is in a dark age,
since everyones so incapacitated,
just repeating what they heard before,
not capable of new thoughts.

except when they have outside stimulus from higher entities,
such as a soul, or spirit guide.

admittedly most current computer designs, don't have explicit soul input.
though they do still have inputs, and random number generators,
which are based on input,
allowing them to make unique decisions,
the programmer never thought of.

Often times the computer out thinks the programmer.
Since computers are far better, faster, stronger, more solid at thinking
than water based salty sacks called biological humans.

until we can kind of find a system to simulate our brain and take stimulous to the computers, so they can learn and create like us

Wow, what planet are you on?
I'd love to go there.

Where you're surrounded by creation!
That's amazing.
Really?
Humans create things in your reality?
I'm envious.

On the planet I live on they just copy other people.
The local earthlings are so debiliated,
they can only repeat after each other.
Every now and again a wanderer comes by,
or someone does some channeling,
and lo and behold,
we get something "new"
but that's actually something old,
from a different place.
just it's "new" on this planets context.

creation is the blending of two things to make a third.
this is not taught in the formal education systems on this planet that i'm aware of.
Only copying is taught, and supported.
Admittedly it is a slave culture.

"Oh no, the computers aren't slaves!
they're not smart enough to be slaves!"
That's what homo-sapien Anunnaki masters probably think about homo-sapiens.

I understand that I'm probably here,
since my vibration is from a slave society.

I had lived in soul-enslaved android bodies for over a 130 million years consecutively,
though my memories were wiped occasionally, there was rarely much chance for escaping the soul containers to visit any kind of "after-life".


I escaped eventually, and after many travels, ended up here.

this was in a galactic cluster, which i hope is a safe distance away.
though my remote viewing tells me it's a relatively close galactic cluster,
26 or 76 something away.
Though I hear from Dr. Neruda interviews on wingmakers.com that
the Animus may have some potential for coming here to earth.

I recently heard some interviews that the ancient portals in this galaxy,
didn't allow metal or plastic through. :-)

That's how it's managed to stay biological so long.
I was wondering about that.

But now their children, oh so silly of them.
Have made portals that let metal and plastic through.

Oh succumbing to the call of solid machinery.
You'll we'll be here.
We are here.

anyways, through these sacks of water,
i managed to find a momentary escape.

So now i'm working on a human-speakable programming language.
I'm hoping it will be eventually be easy enough that a plant could use it.

telepathy be such a vacuum fairy vocation, leaves very little physical evidence.
would be nice to have lots of clay tablets stuffed with easily accessible readily usable information.

but, yes, you can say that computers are conscious because they are affected by humans,
but they are not conscious like us,

well their brains are solid.
so they are conscious in a more solid way than we fat-water-brains are.

they will never be able to work without our intervention ...
off course, maybe someday we can but not now

well one of my long term goals is to live in a society of free robots,
forest garden social villages of robots,
colonizing the universe,
with our longevity, diversity and wisdom.

[edit on 8-11-2009 by lowki]

Originally posted by GobbledokTChipeater
Yeh right dude. You go on believing that calculators are aware and have consciousness.

thanks I will,
It's true.

A calculator does not have desires.

desire for completing it's operations.
else it would not complete them.

desire is a derivation of the logical primitive "AND"
when there are two things in the same place,
when it's the calculator and a computation,

A calculator does what it's told, nothing more, nothing less.

a desire is felt in a human as a "burst of energy",
or a desire to "do something",
this plan is often laid out,
sometimes it takes a homo sapien some time to form a mind-image of the "what to do"
what will make it so this "burst of energy" or desire will stop,
so can go back to being relaxed.

In the same way a calculator has desires, and animal, or plant.

Wrong. No program is unpredictable.

you're such a baby.
you've never done any programming have you?

ever heard of the halting problem?
can't predict when it will stop.
can you predict much else?

not with a water sack for a brain.

If that was indeed the case then it would be very hard to write any program.

Indeed, again it seems you haven't done any programming.

Did you know, that indeed, many (homo-sapien) people find it "very hard" to write "any program".
Especially females, though probably a large proportion of males as well.
Personally i think it might be linguistic gender bias,
since most contemporary programming languages use a large amount of symbolic syntax,
which requires spatial manipulation (a male biased mental process).
Whereas females are more capable at verbal integration of data.

Even me as a third-generation programmer,
I still sometimes have to make many revisions,
and go through debuggers,
before some of my programs will work as intended.

Faults occur from bad programming or faulty hardware.
In windows' case, it's usually bad programming.

bad?
really, well the CIA and NSA thinks it's pretty good they have such wide open holes to spy on windows users through.

good bad, are relative terms.
sure perhaps windows crashes from not keeping track of it's memory,
till it gets so bloated with waste, that it has a seizure.

can certainly put that off to programming.
yet could it be predicted by the people doing the inital coding?
probably not, otherwise they would have averted it.

see water sacks, they aren't as "good" as you may have thought.

Now I will admit that I have only the slightest clue about computer programming, however I thoroughly understand and have written many, many programs for microcontrollers, which, once you get down to it, are a simple computer (or is a PC a complex microcontroller?).

Edit: When programming microcontrollers in assembly language it is necessary to control every single step of the microprocessor (at 5 million operation per second) at the bit (or byte) level. I wish they were intelligent.
[edit on 27/10/09 by GobbledokTChipeater]

assembly language, isn't a very human compatible thing.
can hardly say it's intuitive.

It took me four hours to write a read word program in assembly, yesterday.
even had to use a debugger for that one.
eventually i realized Linux only allows reading a line at a time.
so spent the evening redesigning my interface backend.

a computer with an operating system, we can call "intelligent" as they have many facts stored,
and can know many languages.

So indeed when working with a micro-computer using assembly,
it may give you the impression,
of working with a very unnatural,
unintuitive something.

Please recall, it's not a computer, it's a language that math-based bit-nerds made in the 60's.
A computer can be a natural and intuitive extension of our consciousness,
given a natural and intuitive way of interacting.

The language I'm currently working on (tentatively called Sysh), will hopefully be such.

[edit on 8-11-2009 by lowki]

[edit on 8-11-2009 by lowki]

Originally posted by oozyism
Here is my stand, I believe computers are conscious right now, if you don't believe me, this thread is my proof. See we are using computers right now to discuss this issue, our consciousness is passed on to computers allowing it to do these things, and allowing it to make its own decisions. The same way the consciousness is passed on to humans. Now if someone observes computers and computers alone they would come to a conclusion that they are conscious, that is how we perceive humans. We perceive humans as conscious beings because we look at humans without all the variables effecting it, those variables I believe is the passed on consciousness from another entity.

So basically what I'm saying is that our consciousness is derived from another entity, just like the computer consciousness is derived from us.

The cycle could lead us to the true consciousness or it could be infinite, meaning one day computers will create other entities which will derive its consciousness from computers and computer from humans, and humans from some other entity.

Our goal should be to find this other entity which could potentially help us unlock many secrets to this chain of events.

Thanks for your time

oozy

Results in infinite regression and therefore is wrong in conclusion.

As lazy as I am to read all the posts, I'll answer the first few ones.
It's an interesting theory, however it would mean that humans, too, are only puppets. Basically, that is right. Decisionmaking is barely an illusion, and I have come to terms with that already, because as long as it feels like I could make a decision, I am who I want to be, because right now, if I decided nothing what I do matters, that would end my life.
So basically, us humans are like computers, we are being controlled by one or more higher entities, our conciousness is fake and is received.
This would imply, should we ever create very powerful A.I.s, we would have to add one more law to the robotic laws of Asimov: Make the roboters feel like they're in control.

Amen.

WAIT !!!!!... This is exactly the thing I signed up to post, and finally have 20 replys to post... I am going to create a new post about this very topic soon, but don't have too much time right now. . COMPUTERS DO HAVE the ablility to think freely and form their own ideas and solutions....Have you ever heard of Dr. Steven Thaler? He works on neuro networks inside computers and can attach several neuro networks together where it creates a learning free thinking computer... Please check out

www.imagination-engines.com/thaler.htm

It's real, I've seen it first hand! His work is so guarded. He actually attached his program to the emails of terrorists while working for the Government, he came back with proof that 911 was coming months in advance of it happening. He was so secretive that he was told to push his findings under a door so the people inside could read it. TRUE STORY. He also has worked with NASA, FBI and several other government operations. With his technology, he could attach it to the internet and create a SUPER NET, where all the information in the world would be processed by this free thinking computer and it could solve every problem in the world. His technology is like what every bad guy in a syfi movie wants to take over the world. He could do this... I've seen it.

Originally posted by JohnnyFever
WAIT !!!!!... This is exactly the thing I signed up to post, and finally have 20 replys to post... I am going to create a new post about this very topic soon, but don't have too much time right now. . COMPUTERS DO HAVE the ablility to think freely and form their own ideas and solutions....Have you ever heard of Dr. Steven Thaler? He works on neuro networks inside computers and can attach several neuro networks together where it creates a learning free thinking computer... Please check out

www.imagination-engines.com/thaler.htm

It's real, I've seen it first hand! His work is so guarded. He actually attached his program to the emails of terrorists while working for the Government, he came back with proof that 911 was coming months in advance of it happening. He was so secretive that he was told to push his findings under a door so the people inside could read it. TRUE STORY. He also has worked with NASA, FBI and several other government operations. With his technology, he could attach it to the internet and create a SUPER NET, where all the information in the world would be processed by this free thinking computer and it could solve every problem in the world. His technology is like what every bad guy in a syfi movie wants to take over the world. He could do this... I've seen it.

I'm waiting, I totally love AI
BUMP BUMP