LoL you need to lighten up mogus, we aren't about to change our rituals just so women can be admitted is my point.

Geeze, why does everyone have such a stick up their rear?

--Arc--you're right I have become a bit tasteless, but my "joke" still stands, you want to be a Mason? Prepare to give a show.

As for disagreeing with people? No I'm just letting other problems spill into my writting. Started with dragonridder and got out of control. Deeply deeply sorry about it though so anyone reading this, I do beg your pardon

But things are pretty dandy now, and I've seen a good healthy discussion in my "Enduring Crusade" thread which I'd really like to start doing more reasearch for. That after all was the whole reason I registered in the first place.

Not to brandish my views of politics or all those other usually aggrevating subjects

But sorry if I did offend you, I was just making a bit of a point, very untactfully carried out but still a point. And I see no way around it so...what ever should we do?

I don't know what these "comasonry" fellows do about it, but I don't know many who want to admit women for any reason, I think that's a good one. Others are it IS a Fraternity. Not a "sorrority" and such. No reason to be changing such things now.

And I am respectful, in person. I am beginning to see why a lot of Masons I know here don't post at all. Or haven't for a very very long time.

It's hard to maintain an air of dignity in such an atmosphere as this. It's a debative atmosphere, some things said are really stupid *I know I've already peeved off dragon on some thigns I've said * because they are very opinionated.

Very little fact filters into this site anymore. You want some good fact see my "Enduring Crusade".

But much stuff here now is no longer well researched. I hope I'm not speaking in correctly for William but I could have sworn I heard him say that there used to be a time when ATS was a well researched place or such. I know when I started viewing these forums, many of the "Opinions" people posted were backed with a news article or some goings on, or some research.

Now it seems half the stuff thrown out here is "I feel this" with no research.

Look at Mogus, Mogus you really do need to lighten up.

If I want to make a blatantly sexist comment that hurts no one, it simply is a fact, I should be allowed to do so without the attack of the ignorant masses.

Mogus you probably have no clue WHY I said that joke do you? Arc do you even know?

It's not like "Yea we have women in our fraternity now, take of your close woman!" no, if that's how you took it then I am sorry, but you are confused.

There is a much different reason I said what I did.

[Edited on 15-3-2003 by Hammerite]

[Edited on 15-3-2003 by Hammerite]

the closes that a woman can come to being a mason is becoming an eastern star

I agree with N0_hope there *pats him on the back*

And that's the way it shall stay!

i think that depends on which country you are in - I'm english, you're american I take it. Ok I remember that women's lodges are apparently not sanctioned by the Grand Lodge - will check that with my british source when we next chat.

As for baring my breasts - I have no problem with it. But it is part of a serious ritual in this case, no something for tasteless comments. If you read the quoted correspondance in my original women and masonry thread, my friend gives an explanation of how co-masonic lodges work round the modesty issue.

Fair enough

Still doesn't change my views on if women should be masons or not. I still say no. Really I could careless working around the modesty issues, for me it is solely tradition. But to so many these days, it seems traditions mean nothing. So actually you could say my "joke" was more out of nervousness of not having a "good reason."

But to me traditions are the best reason, tradtions are a good and valid reason, to me traditions are worth dying for.

Maybe in UK you take tradition for granted, it seems rooted in your culture. But here I am in the US, where tradition is dying by the year.

My Grandma and my Grandparents actually in general, I admire them all, are nothing like today's teenagers. Today's kids grow up smoking pot looking for some butthead to blow their head off.

To me it's no different if it is should we accept sex before marriage, women's right to choice for abortions, or letting women in masonry.

And all but the first one I'm stoutly against, I wouldn't mind abortion so much if BOTH parents agree, but to just let the women have such a choice is wrong.

To me Traditions are both closely tied to morality, and to respect. America severly lacks it

And so you can say I ALSO have a "paranoia" about change of most any kind.

But you know, this isn't a change Freemasonry needs. It wouldn't be beneficial, just as it wouldn't be harmful, so since there is absolutely NO REASON to base either pro or con ideas off of. Tradition is an excellent reason to base your pros or cons off.

Ok Hammer, first of all, I wouldn't pride yourself on what you think you know and would highly suggest you CLOSE YOUR MOUTH before you get yourself into some #.

Yes, I do know what you are refering to with regard to the rituals and I''m glad it makes you giddy when touching yerself at night. How bout you show everyone else how smart you are by telling everyone on these boards by means of ignorant little hints? Yeah, that would show everyone what a "cool" Mason you are.

Let me give you a word of advice,
those who know, shut up and listen. Those who know not, always have something to say.

In other words, it is better to remain quiet and have people assume your a dumbass, than to open your mouth and remove all doubt.

For the record, I'm not trying to pick a fight or be an asshole for the hell of it. I just think some people have no sense at all and every now and then need a solid smack. Not out of anger, but out of correction.

As for you commenting on my fact-less theoretical posts, most of those posts are very early morning brainstorms that I type and share rather than write down and forget about. It helps me go to sleep sometimes. I'm not trying to "enlighten" you as I know only what my gut derives from what I read and amd exposed to daily.

Thank You.

Hammerite is obviously trying to provoke other on this board. That's all that needs to be said.

Mogus, you just proved yourself an idiot by your own definition of the word.

Originally posted by Mogus
those who know, shut up and listen. Those who know not, always have something to say.

Now I've been really polite to you in your "Missianic book thread" in dealing with your responses to Tyler. And this just angers me.

To think that you actually think I'm all "Oooh wow I'm cool because people I've never seen or talked to know I'm a mason". You are just another profain who is all "jazzed" about becoming a Mason, and think it is your right to uphold some "Mystical" ideal that you really know nothing about yet.

I've already admitted REPEATEDLY since yesterday, that yes I sometimes am both arrogant and bullheaded and rude, but that I've been trying to fix here.

I've also mentioned REPEATEDLY, that this is not how I am in person, in person, I make a great mason. It's much easier to respect others when you see them, on this forum, some stuff is laughable, and I like many others find it hard to refrain from taking "shots" at others.

You yourself, seem to take shots at others, you are taking shots at me right now, you took shots at Tyler, and Abraham is taking shots at me. N0_hope is taking shots at me, but you know what, most people who take shots at me don't really like Masons.

Now what's your story? I'll tell you.

You are zealous. And you will be for probably a year or more after you are a Mason. When you DO become a Mason, I'll bet you you're going to calm down and realize that this is THE INTERNET, and that it isn't worth "proving someone's morality is right or wrong" online.

I shall dare to use your own weapon against you.

"Meet me in person, and then tell me I'm a bad person."

Until then, keep your mouth shut.

Now this message is me heated but I'm refraining from feeling anger for you, because you will be a Mason soon, and that really holds my tounge.

Consequently, that is holding my tounge elsewhere against some others who are really peeving me off. So as you can see, I'm not the "Unlearning @sshole" you'd like to think of me as.

I've said before, Sometimes it takes a brother to help one remind him who he is.

But you are not a brother yet, so at the least, don't try to be the respectable knight in shining armor, to show all the faults I have displayed.

I don't want women in a "fraternity" and I see no problem with just involving women more with what Masonry does, and as you surely already know, Masonry's biggest works isn't in its ritual, and so anyone is free to do it.

Now moving to your second paragraph (LOL this will be a long post).

It is safe to say that I myself write first on emotion, second on thought, and I hate to erase stuff, right now I'm wondering "How can I better word this so that you Mogus, understand I'm not slapping you back, but merely a bit aggrevated that you are carrying something on that I have dropped."

And like-wise I'm not going to change it though.

I really wish when someone was aggrevated by something I wrote, they'd simply ask me first WHY I WROTE IT, rather than say "well you're completely wrong you butthead" (that quote isn't you at all, that's other people I've put up with)

Many things I write are early brainstorms too, no wonder people think I know nothing and won't admit it, most of what I write about are "theories" LoL.

Oh well, and about my "sexist joke", you know, every other Mason I told it to thought it was funny. But then they know I'm not serious, they also know it's just relating to the ritual, not what would really be done if we did admit women.

If women were admitted to Masonry (still seems odd I mean it's a fraternity), there wouldn't really be free pornos.

Well anyways Mogus, the reason I think you are too "zealous" is because you had the gaul to tell me I should be "Stripped of my apron and banished", because I made a DAMN GOOD JOKE.

It wasn't childish, sure it was dirty, but childish? No.

I didn't however mean to offend Mrs. Arc. (sorry *tips hat*) but had it been disgusting to Masons they'd flock here themselves to tell me.

Anyways I've written so much I'm forgetting what I'm trying to tell you...and now I find myself not knowing what it was I wanted to say.

If you do find your way this far through all this garble, I just want you to know, don't judge me, especially don't judge me as if you were a Mason, you're not yet, plus you just shouldn't judge in general, that's afterall why we are all in this mess to begin with. I've judged, others have judged, it's getting annoying.

Mogus, once you're a Mason though you can say how "unmasonic" my joke is all you want

Just to clear up my view of that joke, I was offended somewhat as it seemed an unnecessary comment in a serious discussion, not because I have no sense of humour (believe me I know and laugh at many sexist jokes about men and women, at the right time and in the right place).

If anyone is offended by a joke they need a reality check. I don't care if it doesn't belong in a serious thread or if it can be construed as poor taste. It was a joke. Nothing more, nothing less. Not a very good one but I reckon some people are making a big deal out of nothing.

Hammerite/FreeMason (or whoever you are). During our conversations on U2U, I explained to you why I believed you were acting like an idiot. I explained that I don't agree with someone who is purporting to be a mason, freely disrespecting others and bringing the name of the craft into disrepute. I don't really give a crap if you are a freemason or not, but what I do care about is the fact that you make those of us who are, look like idiots. Your posts are the posts of a zealot. A misguided fanatic. Now I don't know what the guys in your lodge are like but in my lodge NOBODY would talk about freemasonry in a way that only enflames other people's opinions. Not only would they be told what assholes they look but they would also be reigned in pretty damn sharpish for the poor view of masonry that they give to others.
Masonry is about understanding, friendship, morality and love. It is not about throwing around symbols and numbers and having an attitude that other people are fools just because they are not masons.
You can't expect people to respect you Hammerite, if you don't show them respect too.
And get this. You used the "you don't call a brother out" line on me. Well there's nowhere in my book that tells me that I can't tell you to behave yourself. I guess I would retire from a lodge if you were a member of it and showed the same attitude there as you do here in this forum.

This is a Conspiracy forum. I came here because I enjoy the subject and I wanted to know what these guys thought of us as masons. I find myself very rarely agreeing with their views but I do find it entertaining and that's why I'm here. If I found somebody had an opinion on masonry that I don't agree with, I would either U2U them or just keep my mouth shut.
I suggest you do the same.

*Cheers Leveller Loudly*!!!

You GO BOY!...

haha

Arc. I can understand how, in these enlightened times, it seems odd that freemasonry doesn't accept women. But there are very good reasons why not.
The official line is that freemasonry is a brotherhood. It's about men and therefore women are excluded.

My view is that, whilst this holds true, it's also about sex. Women would be a distraction. I know, I for one would be looking up a chick's skirt or ogling her breasts instead of concentrating on whatever duty I should be performing. I understand that sounds crude, but I'm a redblooded male and I do fancy women. If you're cooped up for hours with a woman isn't it only natural that your mind would eventually turn to sex? We are animals after all.
Freemasonry is not about sex. In my view, admitting women to our lodges could disrupt the harmony that we enjoy.
I dunno if that makes me sound like a chauvanist pig or not. I hope it doesn't - I respect women as much as I do other men.

Thats ok Leveller, my quest for enlightment would be distracted greatly by pondering the contents of my fellow mason's trousers. Unfortunately I'm bisexual so perhaps an all women group would also be unsuitable for me as a fine pair of breasts would have the same effect

Is there any such limitation on gay men becoming masons because of their tendancy to drool over the fine manly chests on display in the initiation ritual?

Nope. We've got a couple of gay guys in our lodge.

I think it's only recently that they've been able to "come out" though.

Whether or not you'd call that sexual repression, I don't know. But the way I see it, I'm not looking at their fine manly bodys when I'm working. Whether they're doing the same to me I couldn't tell you. Chances are I'm way too ugly for then to fancy me so who cares?
I just know that if women were in our lodges things would be different. Call it narrow mindedness, call it bigotry. I'm all for women anywhere else. Just not in masonry.

I'd just call it a shame that some people don't have enough self control and discipline over their sexual urges to put themselves in an environment that could broaden their horizons.

Well I guess you could put it that way. But unfortunately man is an animal. He has sexual urges and desires that aren't always under his control. It's a known fact that we're ruled by our dicks!!!
I gotta be careful here not to try and make freemasons sound like sexual deviants. lol. But actually we're just like any other guys when it comes to sex.
The fact is that when you get a group of guys together the testosterone starts flowing. There's no escaping it.
Then on top of that you have the fact that guys act differently around girls. There's competition, arrogance, the need to impress.
Masonry isn't about these things. It's about purity.
I guess you could say that it isn't masonry that is weak - it's man who is weak with his need for sexual gratification.
In a perfect world maybe women and men could practice freemasonry together. But until we can keep our baser urges in check, I believe it's safer to keep it a men only thing.
It's not a them and us situation. It's a case of freemasonry is something where a man can be himself without always feeling the need to hide his emotions because he's scared of what a woman might think of it. Our sexes our fundamentally different. Until we progress to the stage where sex is not an issue (which I seriously doubt can ever happen) I guess most masons feel it's safer not to involve women in the craft.

you make freemasonry sound like a men's support group. I thought there were other groups for that type of behaviour, like the ones who all go off into the wood together, bang drums and cry lots.

What a sad end to thousands of years of enlightenment....

Umm, ARC, sorry to sound brash but why can't you understand that Masonry is simply not, nor will ever be open to a womans direct involvment?

Just leave it alone.

I think women have wiggled their tales enough in this country to get what they want and I for one find the fact that women not being allowed to join the Masons appealing.

I mean, how are men supposed to remain men if we have women shoving their damn noses into everything we do? You have Baby showers and womens rights movements to appreciate, men have the Masons.

I am not sexist, I am not racist, but I am also not fond of the way our world is right now and dislike many of the people in it.

Find your place and stay there.

I'm tired of hearing about everyone feeling entitled to this or that. I'm tired of hearing about the opression of the African race while at the same time they have an entire TV network devoted to them constantly downing white people. I wonder how large of a riot would be started the first day White Entertainment TV began to air. I'm tired of hearing about how African American people can't get a cab to stop for them while being dressed like their favorite gangster rapper who does nothing but talk about guns, ho's and drug dealing. I'm tired of hearing about how black people can't get a job when they can't even pronounce the last syllable of any word in the English dictionary.

Back in the 70's we have this huge womens rights movement that told America, "to hell with our kids and our families, we want jobs so we feel like equals!" now we have a disgruntled youth who are sick of being taken care of by the nanny from Mexico who can barely speak English. We have school day shootings by kids who never learned compassion because their mothers were off blowing their boss for a raise or a nicer cubicle.

It's not about being equal, its about knowing your place.

Do I hate women? Of course not. Do I hate black people? Certainly not.
I am merely tired of people altogether. Everyone wants something more than they have and everyone wants it "Right Now", nomatter what.

dear me how many chips on shoulders can one organisation generate?

I am a person, not a feminist

I don't have a place based on my gender - I find my place based on my individuality

I want to be a mason because I am curious about it, because my mind questions, because I think at times in a traditionally 'male' way.

If I'd kept my place I'd be married with babies. I would never have studied engineering with a 90% male make-up. I wouldn't be here in on a mostly male forum.

jesus!

[Edited on 17-3-2003 by arc]