More Cracks in the Obamacare Facade: No Insurance? Can't Pay Fee? Go To Jail!

reply to post by westcoast

Wow....I'm so glad people voted for CHANGE!!! I'm so glad that my family can work so hard and honestly just so that we can support those that don't. What a land of opportunity.

This reminds me of CNBC reporter Rick Santelli's explosion about paying "losers'" mortgages for them under Obama's housing rescue plan.

So, now we'll pay for their homes AND healthcare. Anything else? Maybe their jobs, too, if they become "employed" by stimulus-funded make-work
or union-favored jobs.

(There was a great story on NPR Friday and Saturday (so good they repeated it 3 TIMES) in "All Things Considered", "Weekend Edition" and "This American Life" about a government $36k/yr. worker who got a $540,000 mortgage with no proof of income, hasn't made any mortgage payments, who still lives in the home and hasn't received so much as a "late notice." (Guess what HE pays for health care insurance)).

Our tax dollars at work!

jw


[edit on 27-9-2009 by jdub297]

reply to post by dawnstar

I suspose the crew in washington would rather he dump all these high risk people from his payrolll, just so we don't get the hades taxed out of us?

Despite your boss' good intentions, his business is exactly the type (under 50 employees) that will provide the easiest targets for entirants to the "public option" or "co-op" or "exchange."

With all the "illegal" exclusions, no insurance company will underwite your fellow workers' coverage. Obama will not "require" them to change - they just won't have any choice!

How simple.

jw

reply to post by St Udio

Obama will cleverly keep the vow of No New Taxes for the middle class health insurance...
insterad he will decrease everyones 'take home pay' and a resulting decrease of your Disposable Income -- but he'll be right, No Tax Increases

Taxes on benefits, employers and insurers will undoubtedly be passed on to the employee/consumer/insured. So, it makes the same difference in your wallet, doesn't it?

i don't think the cuts in COLA will be enough $$ to Offset the guaranteed bonuses to be paid to the brokers at Goldman Sacs, which alone is some $16.Billion this Christmas/NewYears bonus season

Funny that they will in effect be using OUR money to do that, isn't it?

jw

Hypothetical here, I have no facts to back this up.

Do you all think someone like Bill Gates has a health care plan? He has more money than he would ever need, a few boatloads of it. He can build his own private hospital in his house and hire his own doctor. If he doesn't have a plan, will they send him a letter or go knocking on his door saying if he doesn't pay up he will go to jail and be fined?

I seriously doubt it, so that means, to me at least, that this is just another way of screwing the middle class and the poor. Selective enforcement of this law, I would think. I just can't see them going after some rich dude. It seems to me like it's just another way to fleece us little guys and throw us in jail, right where they think we all should be. Correct me if I'm wrong here, I'm still half asleep but it seems to make sense to me.

Protest peacefully? Go to jail. Don't get the swine flu shot? Go to jail. Don't have health care? Go to jail. Don't pay your illegal federal income taxes? Go to jail. On and on it goes, where does it end?

I haven't worked since December, how am I supposed to pay for anything? There are things I would like to be doing but no one will give me a job and since I have no resources to do much of anything on my own, I'm screwed. How can I pay for health care if I don't have a job and can't seem to get one, even a crappy one that pays next to nothing, no convenience stores, no pizza delivery jobs, nada, zero, zilch, nothing. Not for lack of trying, either, I have tried.

reply to post by TheLoony


Its all about control. Look at how much an 18 year old will owe over the course of his or her lifetime under this mandatory system. $100,000+...and that's not accounting for inflationary pressures.

But hey, the government knows what's good for you better than you do, right? Well, not really. The sad truth is that people believe it, though, when in fact, its just another step in creating a lower class that is subservient and dependent upon the federal government as they're *forced* to play by its rules.

reply to post by TheLoony


My understanding (someone correct me if I am wrong) is that this whole program is about taxing those that HAVE healthcare, to pay for those who do NOT...ie. illegal immigrants and unemployed not already on welfare.

For the rich and/or famous that do not have a need to be insured because they can afford not to be, they do not have any benefits to tax, so they will not have to wory about being fined. Understand?

So again, what it comes down to is taking from the middle to subsidize the bottom. Essentially this current presidency seems intent on creating only a lower class and upper class.

reply to post by TheLoony

Do you all think someone like Bill Gates has a health care plan? He has more money than he would ever need, a few boatloads of it. He can build his own private hospital in his house and hire his own doctor. If he doesn't have a plan, will they send him a letter or go knocking on his door saying if he doesn't pay up he will go to jail and be fined?

I'm pretty sure that Gates, Buffett, et al have controlling interest in several insurance companies AND politicians -- they can't lose.

As for your own situation, you can't lose either!

Take what you've done, and learned, and work for yourself.

There's opportunities all around you, you just have to look and try. See what's at "craigslist' in "gigs" and places like that for freelancers.

Look around your neighborhood. People need help every day with things they're willing to pay strangers to do. Why not you?

Gates tinkered around with a buddy on a hobby. Buffett sold groceries and newspapers.

You've got nothing to lose, right?

jw

Originally posted by Erasurehead
I just saw this and also posted at the same time.
Here is the letter:

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/ff246966b888.jpg[/atsimg]

I feel like I am living in a nightmare. We can't allow the federal government to have this kind of power and control over the people. When will America stand up and say enough?

WHEN WILL YOU STAND UP AND SAY ENOUGH ? Stop depending on others to protect your rights and A**

reply to post by westcoast

what it comes down to is taking from the middle to subsidize the bottom. Essentially this current presidency seems intent on creating only a lower class and upper class.

Obama denies that his philosphical guide and mentor, Jeremiah
Wright, had any influence on him during his 20+ years in Wright's congregation.

But, one of Wright's main themes was the call for "an end to middleclassness."

What better way than to create a huge lower class beholden to the Government for its well-being, and painting the successful and self-reliant evil and greedy?

jw

Originally posted by lucentenigma
reply to post by jdub297

 

I posted in another thread that Obama reminds me of a car salesman.

I've been meaning to put together a thread on how many speeches Obama has given since he's been in office.

It seems like all the guy does is talk.

Obama himself does not have a plan, and I am beginning to wonder if he even knows what is in the several versions of health care reform proposed bills.

He is simply pimping the agenda to the people, as any really good salesman would.

In sales, how much truth will you actually deliver?

How much will you distort that truth, or even lie to sell your product?

A good sales staff is always coached in how they should sell a product, the truth and facts are irrelevant to the goal.

The sad thing is that so many people have taken the President's word and are fine with it.

I am confused, exactly why is it that penalties for tax evasion constitute flaws in health care reform?

And why is it that your looking at other websites instead of the actual bill itself to source your information?

And why is it that Obama is somehow lying when it is Congress that is drafting all of the legislation? Did I read the constitution wrong and now the President has to draft all legislation going through both chambers?

The following was taken from thomas.gov (probably a much more reliable source than other sites)

Americas Healthy Future Act

America's Affordable Health Choices Act of 2009

The following is all the links under "health care reform" from thomas.gov

Expressing the sense of Congress that national health care reform should ensure that the health care needs of women and of all individuals in the United States are met.

Expressing the support of the Congress regarding the need to facilitate State innovation in national health care reform.

Setting forth the congressional budget for the United States Government for fiscal year 2010 and including the appropriate budgetary levels for fiscal years 2009 and 2011 through 2014.

Expressing the support of the Congress regarding the need to facilitate State innovation in national health care reform.

Recognizing the value, benefits, and importance of community health centers as health care homes for millions of people in the United States.

Expressing the sense of Congress that any attempt at health care reform should ensure that patients have the right to choose their health care providers.

Expressing a sense of Congress that a government-defined or public option insurance plan should not be used to fund abortion and taxpayer-funds should not be used to provide abortion under a benefit package within any health care reform package.

Recognizing the need to support the development and enforcement of a well-informed national long-term care strategy to solve the problems of cost, quality, and access to long-term care in the home and community, and the imperativeness of including long-term care in the comprehensive health care reform agenda.

Expressing the sense of the House of Representatives that any major health care reform bill considered on the floor should be available for viewing.

Expressing the sense of the House of Representatives that the House should move forward with health care reform legislation, and costs can be contained through prevention and wellness initiatives that empower parents, families, and communities toward better health.

Expressing the sense of the House of Representatives that any major health care reform bill considered on the floor of the House should be available for viewing for 30 calendar days.

A bill to amend title 38, United States Code, to provide advance appropriations authority for certain accounts of the Department of Veterans Affairs, and for other purposes.

To achieve access to comprehensive primary health care services for all Americans and to reform the organization of primary care delivery through an expansion of the Community Health Center and National Health Service Corps programs.

To provide health care liability reform, and for other purposes.

To amend the Internal Revenue Code of 1986 to make health care coverage more accessible and affordable.

To reform health care delivery by providing incentives for place-based health care, which seeks to bring health services to the patient by locating community health centers, federally qualified health centers, and community integrated health centers in or near settings that already serve a particular target population, such as schools, workplaces, and senior services facilities.

To establish Medicare performance-based quality measures, to establish an affirmative defense in medical malpractice actions based on compliance with best practices guidelines, and to provide grants to States for administrative health care tribunals.

A concurrent resolution expressing the sense of Congress that national health care reform should ensure that the health care needs of women and of all individuals in the United States are met.

An original concurrent resolution setting forth the congressional budget for the United States Government for fiscal year 2010, revising the appropriate budgetary levels for fiscal year 2009, and setting forth the appropriate budgetary levels for fiscal years 2011 through 2014.

A concurrent resolution recognizing the value and benefits that community health centers provide as health care homes for over 18,000,000 individuals, and the importance of enabling health centers and other safety net providers to continue to offer accessible, affordable, and continuous care to their current patients and to every American who lacks access to preventive and primary care services.

A bill expressing the sense of Congress on health care reform legislation.

A resolution expressing the sense of the Senate that reform of our Nation's health care system should include the establishment of a federally-backed insurance pool.

A resolution expressing the sense of the Senate that children should benefit, and in no case be worse off, as a result of reform of the Nation's health care system.

A resolution expressing the sense of the Senate that any health care reform proposal should slow the long-term growth of health costs and reduce the growth rate of Federal health care spending.

A bill to amend title 38, United States Code, to authorize advance appropriations for certain medical care accounts of the Department of Veterans Affairs by providing two-fiscal year budget authority, and for other purposes.

A bill to encourage the development of coordinated quality reforms to improve health care delivery and reduce the cost of care in the health care system.

A bill to achieve access to comprehensive primary health care services for all Americans and to reform the organization of primary care delivery through an expansion of the Community Health Center and National Health Service Corps programs.

A bill to ensure the provision of high-quality health care coverage for uninsured individuals through State health care coverage pilot projects that expand coverage and access and improve quality and efficiency in the health care system.

A bill to provide for the reform of health care, the Social Security system, the tax code for individuals and business, and the budget process.

To extend the State Children's Health Insurance Program for 6 quarters in order to enact bipartisan, comprehensive health care reform.

Not a single one of these bills was introduced by Obama. Not a single one.

Blaming the president for things that congress does is rather unfair and biased.

Those are all the bills I can find that come under the heading of health care reform.

Have fun reading.

Originally posted by whatukno

Not a single one of these bills was introduced by Obama. Not a single one.

Blaming the president for things that congress does is rather unfair and biased.

Obama is the front man, the one pushing the agenda, maybe we shouldn't blame the messenger?

Actually, it is his party that has a controlling majority, but more importantly it is his agenda that they are working on.

If he had his way health care reform would have been passed before the August break, and even before members of the house had time to read the damned thing themselves. More importantly it would have been passed and signed into law before it got too much exposure to the American people.

In answer to your post, it would be rather unfair and biased to not blame him in this case.

Not only that, it would be monumentally ignorant to absolve him of any blame in this.

If he had his way this would have already been shoved down the throats of the people.

Along with that godforsaken cap and trade bill.

Which he also still wants to push through despite the fact that most Americans are becoming aware of what that will cost them.

How many more television appearances will it take for that one?

Joint sessions of congress?

No, don't blame him, he is just the messenger.



Wake up will ya?

reply to post by jdub297


You missed to mention at least two things.

First, that Obama was caught in the fact that he made a deal with BIG PHARMA among many things not to allow Congrees to lower the cost of prescription drugs.

Second, this won't insure elder Americans as it used to. Sure the healthcare we have had has problems but this Obamacare reform will only make it worse.

Even Obama himself has stated on interviews that elder Americans will not be covered for treatments, and or operations because "it might be better if they stay on prescription drugs since they are going to die anyway and the treatments or operations might not work"....

But hey, we all know the Obama fans will not believe any of this, even if it comes directly from some LEFTIST SOURCES....

How do you like the "CHANGE" so far?......

Originally posted by December_Rain
Hmm..wait a minute. It does not say anything about Health care. That section is for filing tax returns, I did'nt found any Health care related stuff. Silly propoganda..check your facts before posting such a hoax threads.

Wow....the Obama fans are really naive and brainwashed aren't they?...

You are right though... YOU should check out the facts before you make up red herrings to protect the SCAM that is the Obama healthcare reform....

Wikipedia is a source which many believe in right?...

............
The proposal also creates an individual mandate that requires people to either buy insurance or pay a penalty. Those with incomes below three times the federal poverty level would receive subsidies to purchase their plans. For a family of four, $66,150 would be the dividing line. The penalty would be up to $950 per person or $3,800 per family each year. These measures would come into effect for all American residents in 2013.[4] According to Politico.com:

"Sen. John Ensign (R-Nev.) received a handwritten note Thursday from Joint Committee on Taxation Chief of Staff Tom Barthold confirming the penalty for failing to pay the up to $1,900 fee for not buying health insurance. Violators could be charged with a misdemeanor and could face up to a year in jail or a $25,000 penalty, Barthold wrote on JCT letterhead. He signed it 'Sincerely, Thomas A. Barthold'."[7]
............

en.wikipedia.org...

Do you have any idea how many Americans make more than the "federal poverty level" and still they live almost paychek to paychek?.... in the millions....

Do you know how many Americans earn more money than three times below poverty level?...

Here is a link and excerpt about the Federal Poverty Level figures.

Recent poverty rate and guidelines
The 2008-2009 poverty threshold was measured according to the HHS Poverty Guidelines[12] which are illustrated in the table below.

Persons in Family Unit 48 Contiguous States and D.C. Alaska Hawaii

1 $10,830 $13,530 $12,460
2 $14,570 $18,210 $16,760
3 $18,310 $22,890 $21,060
4 $22,050 $27,570 $25,360
5 $25,790 $32,250 $29,660
6 $29,530 $36,930 $38,260
7 $33,270 $41,610 $42,560
8 $37,010 $46,290 $40,940

For each additional person, add $3,740 $4,680 $4,300

en.wikipedia.org...

Also, it has been shown that even doctors will be fined, and punished for not following orders from the STATES about the new healthcare reform the Democrats want to implement...

Originally posted by truth/seeker
.................
I thought I lived in America!!! What happened to our RIGHTS, OUR

CHOICES??.....OUR FREEDOMS.....imo they are no more!!!!

S&F

CHOICES?.... FREEDOM?.....

Didn't you know that the Obama fans don't believe in CHOICE?... Many, if not most of them agree with MANDATORY Comunity Service claiming it will be good for the country.... The brainwashed SHEEP don't understand what MANDATORY means apparently...

BTW, even Michelle Obama stated that Obama will not let Americans get back to their normal lives...and this was right from the beginning.....

reply to post by dawnstar


Hey, welcome to the United Socialist States of America....

How do you like true Socialism so far?....

How do you like the fact that Emmanuela Rahm himself has stated that ALL Americans will be REQUIRED, as in ORDERED to do some sort fo Community Service "for the good of the nation"....

Many of us have been warning other Americans about this, and these Americans didn't want to believe.

History DOES repeat itself unfortunately.... These policies that take away INDIVIDUAL FREEDOM is what a Socialist dictatorship is all about...

how do i keep managing to get double posts when I only click once ?

[edit on 27-9-2009 by Barkster]

The truth is that care will not ever get better in the USA because it is run by eugenicists hell bent on depopulation. One thing that will come of this legislation will be a tightening of the noose around Americans necks and the ever increasing ability of big brother to have complete control over our lives and no chance for ever cheating on taxes. Thats what it is all about baby! Please everyone take a minute or two and send an email to your congressman or congresswoman and vehemently oppose this legislation. It helps more than you think when 75000 Americans tell a representive he or she will NOT get your vote next time if he votes yes.

[edit on 27-9-2009 by Barkster]

reply to post by Walkswithfish


Well instead of assigning all blame to Obama, perhaps maybe, just maybe, do some independent research for yourself instead of listening to the fear mongers and the right wing political anti Obama agenda.

Independent thought and research will show the truth of a situation instead of just automatically blaming a single person for what is a whole lot of ideas being floated around.

Yes Obama is the front man, the salesman, and the guy pushing an agenda. But the bills are accessible and people are free to go online and read the full text of each and every bill. Whether they do or not isn't anyone's problem but the person that shuts their eyes tight and then complains that they are passing these bills without people being able to read them first.

But go ahead, blame Obama for right wing pundits not bothering to go online and read the bill themselves, instead they just claim that the text is hidden and that no one knows anything about it.

Can't blame Obama for people not bothering to look for themselves.

You tell me to wake up, but at least I bothered to go and look up what congress is doing instead of just believing what I was told. I guess that denying ignorance means something different to different people.

Instead of believing that a hand written note was the doomsday scenario that was portrayed in the OP I decided to go look for myself. What did I find? That it's a penalty for tax evasion, not health care reform. But that's not what the OP wanted us to believe now is it? That doesn't put fear of Obama in the American people now does it? Tax evasion penalties doesn't put the blame on Obama for a health care bill he never wrote now does it?

You tell me to wake up, but instead of bothering to read anything that you could then use to point to a specific reason why that this plan is bad, you instead use generalizations and dogma from the right wing fear base to bolster a rather weak argument. The right has nothing else in their tool bag except fear. They want to tell everyone that this plan will jail them and kill their grandmothers. They want to tell you that this plan will raise your taxes to the point that you will be an indentured servant to the government. All of which aren't true. Anyone who actually is awake and bothers to read and think for themselves can see through this and see that there is really no concrete plan on the table and that specifics are all in committee.

You tell me to wake up, but I am afraid that you are quite mistaken.

reply to post by whatukno


Does just over 47 hours of reading and researching the bills qualify as research?

Why are you trying to remove blame from Obama?

It really doesn't matter one way or the other now anyway.

He is literally spent fuel at this point, the left have rode him about as far as they can.

Congress is making the legislation, the president is pushing it... Is that to simple to understand?

They are all guilty of attempting to do this, but few have been so vocal in pushing this as President Obama has.

Ultimately he is a puppet, he knows his place in the real chain of command, and when the congress turns on him you will know a new blame game... Because even they will blame him to save their own political lives.

Watch the rats jump ship just before the 2010 elections.

You can blame who you want, it really makes no difference at this point.