More Cracks in the Obamacare Facade: No Insurance? Can't Pay Fee? Go To Jail!

reply to post by whatukno

But where in the actual bill is this provision? Has anyone stated this? Or is this more fear mongering and conjecture without facts?

Where the heck have you been on this debate??? The list of problems with the health Care bill was posted by a right winger on tweeter. A thread was started at ATS to look at the complaints vs the actual language in one of the bill. The result was enough to give me nightmares.

The insurance companies will RUN this program just like the Ag Corporations RUN the USDA and the FDA. Ask WHO will benefit and Who will run the program and you see it is not "health care" it is Medical Insurance Welfare. Just another scheme to rape the poor and middle class.

To put it into historical context please read about another Clinton/Obama agenda that lacks the high emotional content. History, HACCP and the Food Safety Con Job

Here is the DEMOCRATS position (Butz was a democrat) Earl Butz's famous refrain of “Get big or get out” SO the DEMOCRATS represent the "little man" If you believe that I have this bridge I want to sell....

...This transformation was the result of organized plans developed by a group of highly powerful – though unelected – financial and industrial executives who wanted to drastically change agricultural practices in the US to better serve their collective corporate financial agenda. This group, called the Committee for Economic Development, was officially established in 1942 as a sister organization to the Council on Foreign Relations. CED has influenced US domestic policies in much the same way that the CFR has influenced the nation's foreign policies...

America saw its agricultural system intentionally subjected to political policies that radically transformed it. What was once a decentralized system that provided a means to self sufficiency and independence for tens of millions of farmers was purposefully centralized into a capital-intensive fossil-fuel dependent system that restructured local economies, permitting their wealth to be extracted by what are now transnational cartels dedicated to the so-called free market and globalized trade at all costs.

Pollan asks a critically important question about why livestock were removed from pastures and stuffed into confined area feed lots: “Why did we ever turn away from this free lunch in favor of a biologically ruinous meal based on corn? Why in the world did Americans take ruminants off the grass? And how could it come to pass that a fast-food burger produced from corn and fossil fuel actually cost less than a burger produced from grass and sunlight?”[11]

Though Pollan doesn't directly answer that question, he does recognize that Earl Butz's famous refrain of “Get big or get out” had a lot to do with the answer. But Butz, we must now acknowledge, was only implementing CED policy recommendations.

Control the food, Control the people - Kissinger

Originally posted by burdman30ott6
reply to post by December_Rain

 

WRONG!

Ensign's original question pertained to what would happen if someone refused to buy the mandated insurance AND refused to pay the unlawful (my word) fine the government has proposed for those who refuse to carry insurance. That fine is to be an estimated $1,900 fine and is called to be imposed upon the individual by the IRS. Thus, the response that failure to pay the fine would be prosecutable under the tax code.

Obama is a lying scumbag and this proves it. The healthcare reforms he's pushing for, with the included penalty for noncoverage being enforced by the IRS, PROVE that he is raising taxes on the middle class of America. Something he promised not to do. Liar, liar, pants on fire!

my 22 old son can't get healthcare for less then 235 a month, at 1900 a year, he would be getting a break with more money in his pocket, from the mandated insurance company premiums that are now available.

reply to post by crimvelvet

Where the heck have you been on this debate??? The list of problems with the health Care bill was posted by a right winger on tweeter. A thread was started at ATS to look at the complaints vs the actual language in one of the bill. The result was enough to give me nightmares.

The language of the bill changes almost daily, and it's not perfect. None of it is perfect. The problem is the health care industry and big pharma being involved with the process.

They have been twisting facts around and outright lying to try and scare people away from a program that (in time) will be a good thing for the country as a whole. If people can have real access to health care, people will be healthier, people won't spread diseases around as much. The result of which will be that the country as a whole will benefit from it, economically.

The insurance companies will RUN this program just like the Ag Corporations RUN the USDA and the FDA. Ask WHO will benefit and Who will run the program and you see it is not "health care" it is Medical Insurance Welfare. Just another scheme to rape the poor and middle class.

That is the problem. We don't need Big Pharma or the insurance companies involved with universal health care. I hope people on this board would see the conspiracy that Big Pharma and the insurance companies play in this debate. Yes that's right there is a conspiracy here. Big corporations don't want you to get universal health care. They want to continue to deny you care because of pre-existing conditions. They want to continue dropping patients coverage. But thanks to people hating one man (Obama), they buy into the bull dunk that these companies make sure to shove down our throats.

To put it into historical context please read about another Clinton/Obama agenda that lacks the high emotional content. History, HACCP and the Food Safety Con Job

I got another historical context for you. Right after world war II, England was reeling from being bombed repeatedly by the Germans. What does England do in the midst of their reconstruction? They pass universal health care for all citizens. Yes that's right, they insured every person in the country after the second world war.

Here is the DEMOCRATS position (Butz was a democrat) Earl Butz's famous refrain of “Get big or get out” SO the DEMOCRATS represent the "little man" If you believe that I have this bridge I want to sell....

I don't believe that the democratic party has anyone's interest but their own in mind, I am just not that naive. What I do know is a good start to something that will benefit the country as a whole. I don't like lies spewed out by corporations and I don't like it when people deliberately obfuscate an issue just to muddy the waters enough to keep their own money supply running.

Might I suggest renting Sicko by Michael Moore. Might wise everyone up about health insurance, and what insurance companies really do to people.

reply to post by whatukno


Aww no new taxes? i thought that was obamas thing ... no defecit no taxes ... money grows on trees!!! Debate 101 look at what your debating then continue... game over

reply to post by conspiracyrus

Aww no new taxes? i thought that was obamas thing ... no defecit no taxes ... money grows on trees!!! Debate 101 look at what your debating then continue... game over

No new taxes?



I think you got the wrong president.

We see that once the facts come out the other side just starts blatantly lying to push their failed agenda. Now the right just pushes fear and hate in order to try and sway people from reform.

Originally posted by dizzie56
We are all screwed.

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.--That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, --That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness.

- Thomas Jefferson, Declaration of Independence

Government has become destructive and its now the RIGHT of the people to alter it and to reiturate it's priciples that we once started with.

1) Kick em all out and set term limits along with gettin rid of the pension fund.
2) Get people in there that wont sell their souls and make them answer to every vote they make as to why they went either way.
3) Party like its 1999 again because we just took our country back and WE THE PEOPLE are now in control instead of WE THE POLITICIANS.

Page 3 and finally someone addressing the root of the problem . Health Care bill or whatever it is ,is not the only reason . But it was the tipping point I think.
We know they are going to just keep storm-trooping us. Most americans feel that they have went to far allready numerous times.

So the million dollar question is ...."How do we do this" ? Can we even discuss that without a T/C violation?

Im going to finish reading this awsome thread now. s&f

reply to post by whatukno


it was a reference to GHWB but that point stands obama said it too =)

Originally posted by whatukno
reply to post by jdub297

 

The last major action on HR 3200 is

7/31/2009 House committee/subcommittee actions. Status: Ordered to be Reported (Amended) by the Yeas and Nays: 31 - 28.

So how is that there is no time to review it?
I don't expect anyone to spoon feed me. But I don't want to have people try and feed me tripe and call it good either.
This plan has a lot to do with people like me. So I am quite interested in what it does and what it does not do. I don't want to be left out of yet another plan supposedly to help people.

Then I'm sure you're interested in the "Reconciliation Bill" Sen. Harry Reid plans (threatens) to ram through the Senate. The same one that MUST be introduced by October 15, and which you insist does not exist.

Harry Reid is said to be planning to force the health care bill through the Senate using the “nuclear option” of Reconciliation.
The Nevada Democrat, who has issued similar threats before, spoke as the Senate Finance Committee began debate over Chairman Max Baucus’ reform plan. Reid threatened to use a budgetary tool called reconciliation — also known as the “nuclear option” — that would allow Democrats to pass key parts of the legislation with a simple majority, as opposed to the 60 votes needed to avoid a Republican filibuster. “If we can’t work this out to do something within the committee structure, then we’ll be forced to do the reconciliation,” Reid said, adding that he views that as a “last resort.”

www.swampreport.com...
(emphasis added)

If you're not careful, I'll post links to the stories about the Baucus Bill and the taxes (up to 40%, now) coming with it.

Wanna see the REAL story about what the Obama Administration is doing behind the scenes, and what they intend to do to the cost of private insurance?

go here:"Privately, Barack Obama strongly backs public option
White House discreetly labors to weave coalition on health care"
www.chicagotribune.com...

Deny ignorance.

jw


[edit on 5-10-2009 by jdub297]

reply to post by jdub297


socialized medicine is just the wrong thing at the wrong time ... tanking economy ... tanking support of government ... it seems almost like they want us to throw the first stone .... pardon my bible

reply to post by conspiracyrus


We can reform health care without government taking it over and messing it up as they do with everything else they stick their money-grubbing fingers into.

Another bureaucracy, another pot of money to play with.

The world is getting tired of this faster than the American people, so they are abandoning our dollar.

By the way, the CBO reviewed the Senate Finance Cmtee's bill today.

Confirms that they will gnerate billions of $$ from the "fines" that many on this thread say we won't have to pay.

Go figure.

jw

Originally posted by jdub297

By the way, the CBO reviewed the Senate Finance Cmtee's bill today.

Confirms that they will gnerate billions of $$ from the "fines" that many on this thread say we won't have to pay.

Go figure.

jw

Can you imagine the money and man-hours that will be needed to
enforce and collect these fines & penalties assessed on those who
refuse to buy health insurance? I'm sure this $$$ amount wasn't
taken into consideration by the Congressional Budget Office. I
suppose whatever the final price estimate will be, we should double
it!

reply to post by jdub297


Lol you hit the nail on every point u2u me man ... you friggin beat me to every point or agree with the points im making ... i dont get it ...! hah other than that ...i agree these people have no idea how much money the consumer will have to foot for getting sub par medical insurance

reply to post by carewemust
When the government first "scored" Social Security," they promised it would be self-funding and self-sufficient for as long as the programs stayed in effect. (It was originally porposed as a"temporary" safety-net.)

Same for Medicare and Medicaid and Social security Disability.

All are now going to be out of money even before the Health Care reform kicks in.

How long do you think it will be before all the taxes, fees, and penalties fail to pan out for Obamacare and it gets "upside-down?"

I give it less than 4 (deeply subsidized)years.

jw

reply to post by jdub297


If it wasn't for America having the largest population of overweight
citizens, I'd suggest a Single-Payer system like England has. But we would
need to have a $10.00 a gallon gasoline tax to cover the huge medical
costs Americans incur. I bet our illness/injury per thousand of population
is similar to that of many 3rd world countries.

Oh this gets better than that. Here is what I see this as. Now according to Obamacare, you don't have health insurance, you are charged initially with a mistomeanor charge, fined and possibly a year in jail. It is then sent to the IRS that upgrades it from a mistomeanor to a Felony, a larger fine and more time in jail. Now you are a convicted felone. You lose the right to vote and the right to own any firearm. Sounds like a sneaky way to get more control out of the people than they really wants to admit.

reply to post by carewemust


Funny you should mention the obesity and unhealthy lifestyle factors.

These are being used by some employers to reward healthier, lower-risk employees who cost less to treat and insure: Quit smoking, get a lower premium/deductible. Same for weight loss and gym memberships.

These are opposed by the ACLU, the American Cancer Society and the Lung Foundation as discriminating against "sick" people.

jw

reply to post by sdcigarpig

Now you are a convicted felone. You lose the right to vote and the right to own any firearm. Sounds like a sneaky way to get more control out of the people than they really wants to admit.

But you get free health care in custody. They get you into the system either way.

jw

The Obamacare medical insurance coverage plan...
will be able to clear out all those tent cities that the growing numbers of homeless are creating. Those FEMA Camps might just be recognized as 'debtors prisons' ....for all the homeless/indigents that fail to pay the $1,500-1,900 dollar fine for not having some form of mandantory healthcare coverage

be healthcare in the form of the now taxable company provided coverage,
be it the public option coverage (which the homeless couldn't pay for)
be it welfare type Medicaid




[edit on 8-10-2009 by St Udio]

reply to post by St Udio

The Obamacare medical insurance coverage plan...
will be able to clear out all those tent cities that the growing numbers of homeless are creating.

I don't think they'll even have to go that far.

Why not just hire them with "stimulus money" to blog for Obama, put them in foreclosed houses with "rescue money" and give them free "Obamacare."

Have your checkbook ready on April 15th.

jw

I saw this on TV last night. It really puts things into perspective, and offers a small plan to help showcase the real situation in the nation, while providing some affordable healthcare to a few pockets of the country.

www.msnbc.msn.com...

Personally, I think that taking down the health insurance industry completely is our only true option, but that would require activity that I can't condone, so maybe a little shaming of the people who work for these companies will have to suffice.