Communism 101

reply to post by dizzylizzy


Thanks for that insight. A dictatorship is a scary thought. What is it like living under a Socialist Labour government?

Capitalist propaganda has been bombarded into our heads so far that we fear even the word "communism" yet SOMEHOW we come cry on here for change, we say down with the large corporations and we demand libertarianism and less catering to financially influential groups.

I will not deny that ugly stuff has happened under authoritarian rule within governments and the people, and people will look at Stalin's reign in Soviet Russia as a popular example. But what we don't realize is big government is the only institution big enough to change an entire country and it's people. We've seen it turn things bad, but I can assure you we can see it turn things good under the right people.

People who fear the power of big corporations and the power that money has and it's ability to corrupt AND have a sincere distaste for what they've been fed about communism contradict themselves.

[edit on 043030p://555 by For(Home)Country]

We're nowhere near Communism, nor are we approaching either Communism or Fascism. We're a capitalist country with a social welfare state - like pretty much every single developed country on the planet!

This has been true since the first public schools and roads were built.

It's unlikely to change soon either way - Communism was an abject disaster & failure, Fascist regimes tend to get themselves bombed off the face of the planet, and a "true free market" only exists in places like Somalia, where there is no law whatsoever.


Society has become somewhat more authoritarian & bureaucratic, due largely IMO to media scare-mongering about crime, but we have a LONG way to go before we are anything close to the kind of totalist government the Fascists or Communists had.

The labels are mainly thrown around on here by drama queens hoping to tar their political opponents by association:

"You said that water runs downhill! Did you know THE COMMUNISTS UNDER STALIN/NAZIS UNDER HITLER said water runs downhill!?!? YOU'RE A COMMIE/NAZI!!!"

Originally posted by crimvelvet
This is some of the industries with over 50% foreign ownership, Source Watch

* Sound recording industries - 97%
* Commodity contracts dealing and brokerage - 79%
* Motion picture and sound recording industries - 75%
* Metal ore mining - 65%
* Database, directory, Book and other publishers - 63%
* Cement, concrete, lime, and gypsum product - 62%
* Engine, turbine and power transmission equipment - 57%
* Rubber product - 53%
* Nonmetallic mineral product manufacturing - 53%
* Plastics and rubber products manufacturing - 52%
* Other insurance related activities - 51%
* Boiler, tank, and shipping container - 50%
* Glass and glass product - 48%
Coal mining – 48%

Nope. In a communist country these would be nationalized and owned by the government. Not owned by the people.

This is pretty much a straw-man argument you are making up. Read some books about history and politics and try again.

The situation you are in is nowhere close to communism. Not in the sense of Marxist theory and not in the sense of what happened in real history in countries ruled by communist parties.

I am just reminding you that an analysis very far from real history is a useless analysis.

Originally posted by xmotex
We're nowhere near Communism, nor are we approaching either Communism or Fascism. We're a capitalist country with a social welfare state - like pretty much every single developed country on the planet!

Now this is the truth.

People blathering about commies are just undereducated or they are spreading memetic brain virus propaganda that is being manufactured by some political party to attack another political party in a certain superpower which is sitting on the western side of the Atlantic Ocean. I don't mean Canada.

There are still some communists in China... Maybe?

reply to post by Digital_Reality


are u joking?

There is ONE man here in America who is worth $450,000,000,000.00

I don't see him escaping in a hurry do you?

Did you check the DOW or NASDAQ?

Every single ticker name indicates another blow to the fallacy of your thesis. (less GM)



[edit on 4-9-2009 by mental modulator]

Originally posted by Digital_Reality
reply to post by dizzylizzy

 

Thanks for that insight. A dictatorship is a scary thought. What is it like living under a Socialist Labour government?

Where i am from the socialist party was pretty big when i grew up, and somewhat less big starting with my 20ies. (I usually vote green, our leftwingers aren't leftwing enough)

So let me answer your question:
Pretty cool! It really went downhill here when our middle/rightwing party somehow managed to grab power.
Keynesianism works great if you don't forget the second part (democracies have a tendency to do that though) (The first part is: Economy down: State must spend money. Second part is Economy up: Tax the hell out of it to finance part one)

I also recall a newspaper article in my youth stating that most of the US think my country is communist. Most thought that was rather strange, since we had a ex Nazi president at that time ... (was UN general secretary before that)

And now: guess where I am from

Austria, and you're talking about Kurt Waldheim.

Do I get a cookie?

reply to post by Etsivä Romppainen

Nope. In a communist country these would be nationalized and owned by the government. Not owned by the people.

I said the Bankers like to USE socialism. It is all smoke and mirrors to distract ordinary people so that ordinary people do not notice the OWNERS of the Federal Reserve are robbing them blind. (lets you and he fight) I only posted that information so people could see the USA is not what they think. It is all multinational corporations, many based overseas who have bought American companies.

Besides they are exporting our businesses. A friend had a business dismantling factories and shipping them over seas. We had less manufacturing jobs in 1996 than in 1970 and that was before the World Trade Organization changed the rules and allowed even more jobs/corporations to be shipped overseas. All that is left is the land its self and they have plans for that. The USA is nothing but a hollow shell rotted on the inside by the FED.

reply to post by xmotex


You get an ice planet.
But i heard they are problematic to eat

reply to post by debunky


Mmmm tasty.

Don't worry, Jovian gravity turns them into a Slurpee full of delicious organics

Originally posted by Digital_Reality
reply to post by dizzylizzy

 

Thanks for that insight. A dictatorship is a scary thought. What is it like living under a Socialist Labour government?

Not much differnt from living under a conservative government, the rich get richer and the poor poorer. One difference I suppose is that the state owns services such as gas electric and water, with a few other nationalised industries.

No government can please all of the people there is just too many of us.

When I read the Wrath of Grapes, the way the people in those camps elected their representatives and could get rid of them with a show of hands rather than wait for some allotted time made me realise two things one, we do not live in a Democracy two government is too big and powerful. People need more power and then maybe each would naturally respect the other person because they had a common cause without losing individuality.
I am in favour of non violent anarchy.

Originally posted by Digital_Reality

Originally posted by Avenginggecko
reply to post by Digital_Reality

 

Could you list for me the Social Democratic countries in Europe or North America that have already become Communist dictatorships? I'm assuming there's quite a few because they've been Socialist Democratic countries for decades now.

I'm just interested to know how many countries there are that have been transformed into Communism due to having socialist-democratic policies.

As far as I can tell, there isn't a single state on the Earth that has transformed into Communism this way.

Besides, the corporations and elite that actually run policy in this country would never let a Communist state develop. You're much more likely to get a Fascist state instead. But even saying America is on the march towards either of those is like starting a trip from New York to California and saying you'll only take one route to get there when you don't even have a map or a compass.

What about the current people making the decisions? According to Conservative talk show hosts they are all pushing for a communist way of life.

Are they just making stuff up and crazy loons? Most of what Ive been hearing I have researched and it has been right on the money.

The new crap with the Van Jones issue is pretty scary to be honest.
My beliefs do not align with his and he is there making decisions despite not being voted into office or approved by the people.

These are Conservative talk show hosts that don't deal in facts or real journalism. Or if they use facts, they distort them in a way that spins it to their favor. Radio jockeys, Conservative or Liberal, are probably as bad as listening to the MSM because 1) they aren't journalists and don't have to speak factually, and 2) it's incredibly difficult to actually research something someone's talking about on the radio - there's just too many details to keep track of, and more often the sources they site for their research are partisan ones anyway.

There has still yet to be one capitalist, democratic country in existence that has transformed into Communism through an election.

This whole "slippery slope" to Communism has been a major talking point for Conservative partisans since the 50s. It's a great way to rile up Conservatives against Liberals, and that's about it.

The major deciding factor on the quality of any government system is the quality of the people implementing it.

A benevolent dictatorship can work just fine.

Different forms of government vary greatly in how resistant they are to being abused by implementors of poor quality.

A dictatorship or monarchy can go bad very easily, by simply having one bad man or one bad family.

Representative republics are considerably less prone to this, as any one person has less power, but as we have seen, given enough implementors of poor quality, even a Republic can decay.

After researching this subject for several years now, I can assure you that most people are completely misinformed about communism (including communists themselves). Propaganda is a very effective tool. The following are some of my notes from the last few years, some of the subjects listed may not appear to be related at first, but they are...

The first theories of "socialism" were formulated in the late 18th century and were based on the exploitation of those who labored by those who owned capital or rented land and housing. (ie: the Landlords exploiting the peasants)

In 1848, the Communist Manifesto was published by Karl Marx (1818-1883)

Marx applied his philosophy of communism to government and capitalism to arrive at a theoretical “conflict-free society”. The Communist Manifesto was intended to promote the belief that capitalism would be replaced by communism. To achieve this, Marx distorted the facts, contrived vague theories and attempted to make his exploitive concepts seem appealing.

According to popular history, Marx was a disgruntled ex-employee of the New York Herald Tribune at the time he wrote the "Communist Manifesto". The problem with this claim is that Marx worked for the Tribune until at least 1851 and had been endorsing communism since 1842 when he began writing for the Vorwärts, the most radical of all German newspapers at the time. The paper was established and run by the secret society called League of the Just. (the first international Marxist organization)

The Herald Tribune was known as the voice for moderate "internationalists". During the mid 1800's internationalists generally felt it was their divine right to exploit any people who they perceived to be inferior. They would have found the exploitative idealism of Marx to be very appealing.

The International Bankers obviously think very highly of Karl Marx, after using his theories to impose communism, Marx was featured on the 100 Deutsche Mark, the highest denomination currency of the German Democratic Republic. (East Germany)

According to Marx, in countries with strong democratic institutional structures (e.g. Britain, the US and the Netherlands) the transformation to communism could be achieved through peaceful means (such as through ballet initiatives) while in countries with strong centralized state-oriented traditions, such as Germany, Austria, France, Italy, and Belgium, the upheaval would have to be violent. Marx also theorized that to establish a socialist system, a dictatorship must first be created.

In the following year, revolutions took place in Germany, Austria, France, Italy and Belgium.

In 1861, the civil war began. The dispute between the Southern States and Lincoln was not about slavery. Most of the people at the time did not own slaves. The average price of a slave in 1850 was about $1,000. (about $25,800 in 2008). Slaves were primarily used as field labor on large plantations in the South. Southern plantation owners had become very wealthy from the use of slave labor. Many of them would use their wealth to influence elected government officials, a practice which undermines the concept of democratic representation. (a standard practice of today)

During the Civil War, military conscription was imposed for the first time in the U.S. All previous wars had been fought by volunteers. Conscripted solders accounted for only 6% of the military. The practice was ended due to popular and sometimes violent opposition.
(free men are willing to fight for their beliefs, which is why all but 6% had already volunteered)

Let me know if you want to see more.

Please don't confuse Communism with Stalinism..

I think the whole Red scare and Cold War Brainwashing destroyed the image of socialism..communism..etc..etc..

I think the whole Red scare and Cold War Brainwashing destroyed the image of socialism..communism..etc..etc..

What image?

Communism, socialism and the cold war were all created and financed by the same group that established the Federal Reserve.

I like to stir , and often have only seconds to make my point befor they run away .

a capital is and achtectural device... its a cap stone for a pillar.
it is also where you put a statue or bust .

capitalism is all about greatness.

communisim is all about one relationship .
between the citizen and the state , all other relationships are subordinate to that relationship .


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to be a capitalist , you must beleave in a god .
the perticular god or higher power is not important in the least .
if you do not beleave in a god , you can not be a capitalist .

...because...

capitalist beleive that every one was created perfect by a god that never makes mistakes .
and that you personaly are in all of time and space unique and special ... with a singular talent , purpose of will , greatness of spirit, talent of soul ... unmatched in eternity and infinity... and you sux at everything else .

capitalists beleive that each person has a place on earth to stand , and a stand to take on earth ... as design'd by a god of order and perfection .

the place, capital : is a place where you have statues to honor your great hero's , great deed , great acheivements ...

the coining of capital: is the icon of the issuing state , empress'd on cion , script , or contract for the purpose of tax , fine or bond to the state ...

all coin with a icon of a state of issue is capital ... and its primary function is the transfer of wealth from its poplation to the state of issue .

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in communism , every one is assumed to be equal .
...and ...
given enought training , provided by the state , you may teach the equal citizen a useful function that the state may find need of.

in communism... you do not own your greatness , it is the property of the state . because we are all uniformly equal .

god is not recognised as real in a communist system because it gets between the citizen and the state .

unique people are not unique when born , they are unique as a result of the state , and unfairness to the others around them .

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in a capitalist system , democracy is fundimentaly important , because rule of law is important .
people are assumed to have inhearently unequal skills , talents and ablitys ... so equality befor the law is critical ...where rich stand equal to poor , passion stands equal to meek .

in capitalism , the goverment is a judge and ref of a game ... where the rules are well understood and fairly applied to all .

in capitalism , the answer to large corparations , is large unions .
( please note : the more capitalist a nation is , the more powerful their unions ... you have no unions in the USSR , cuban , or china )
in point of fact , unions are a natural function of capitalism , and capitalism can not function with out them .

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in communism , there is no other relationship other than the state to the citizen . democracy is not required , as the welfare of the citizen is assured by the state . the citizen does the work that is assign'd by the state , the state is required to provide such training as the work requires .

unions are not needed , as the state assures the welfare of the citizen .

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socialism is a bad blend of these two true economic systems.

the measure of the blend is in the surplus population .

***********************************************

once the words are defined , you can talk about things a bit easier

Communism is a 19th century concept. Whatever the future brings, I'm betting it will be a 21st century concept. Things have changed a lot and are set to change more, whether we like it or not. I'm guessing that by the time the dust settles (whenever that is), the whole "left versus right" paradigm will seem as quaint and irrelevant as Whigs versus Nullifiers.

[edit on 9/6/09 by silent thunder]

reply to post by silent thunder


I think you are right. Its a whole new ball game now and I'm sure a new idea is being worked on. I have no problem with that as long as they don't take away all of the rights that our forefathers fought for.