Heart Surgeon tells of Resurrection from the Dead

reply to post by moocowman


Im sorry moo,
But the so called prayer from the book of the dead is nothing like the Lords Prayer...in fact, it reads like some type of Old Testament worship of false gods,that the people were following and God warned them of what would happen.
Maybe all that is needed is to look at who and why these Egyptians worshipped these gods?
Also where did the people of Egypt go after that?
where are they now?
Are they still around masked in deception?

ICXC NIKA
helen

reply to post by moocowman


Moo,
I only use Scripture so that one can relate to what I am saying, as many otherwise do not believe!
As for twisting words?
Please, I have not twisted any words...nor do I need to twist them,what purpose would that serve?

Peoples possesions and chattel?
Now,What exactly does that mean?
The teachings of Jesus Christ NEVER spoke evil against anyone, not even the people that hated Him or the people that Crucified Him.
He simply said they were ignorant of the fact of who He was!
He prayed for them till His last breath....what other man in HISTORY has claimed to be Like Christ?

In His Resurrection He destroyed DEATH as it was foretold ''Sting of DEATH'' or 'Curse'....accurate Bible prophecy!
What other book known to man and spoken by many witnesses have made the same claim?

ICXC NIKA
helen

reply to post by helen670

Maybe all that is needed is to look at who and why these Egyptians worshipped these gods? Also where did the people of Egypt go after that? where are they now? Are they still around masked in deception?

It would appear that there a distinct similarity between the exodus of the bibles and the exodus of Akhetaten.

We know that there is no evidence whatsoever for a population of 2 million proto jews leaving Egypt en-mass .

Not only is there no evidence of this but the biblical claims in Exodus are somewhat absurd.

At the alleged time of exodus the population of Egypt was just over 3 million.

The Egyptian records themselves mention nothing of "Hebrew" slaves, let alone 2 million of them.

Exodus becomes even more absurd when it states that these "Slaves", took with them wealth including a sizable amount of gold. Add to this the biblical claim that 600000 of the bonded slaves we "Armed men" stretches credulity to it's limits.

600000 Armed men would have been a sizable fighting force considering the population of including the salves was 3 million.

Two thirds of Egyptian people left leaving a population of 1 million ? And how many of the remnant would have been armed men ?

It doesn't take a mathematical genius to work out that if around 25% of the Hebrew "slave" population were soldiers, then it wouldn't be unreasonable to expect Pharaoh to be left with 250000 soldiers at the same ratio of soldiers per head of population.

It goes without saying that, if the bibles are telling the truth the so called Hebrew "slaves" could have easily overwhelmed Egypt itself.


However, the Egyptians (unlike the slaves) kept records, and their records do indicate an exodus albeit possibly fragmentary.

And lo and behold which of the Egyptian people were given the Pharohnic boot ?

The ones that belonged to the cult of the Aten, the very first recorded incident of "Monotheism".


What was the destination of these (quite wealthy) monotheists ?
Canaan.

What was the greater treasure that Howard Carter unearthed, the tomb of King Tut or, that the Exodus was of the expelled population of Akhetaten the very first recorded Monotheists ???

Probably a greater conspiracy than JFK and perhaps of all time ?

reply to post by helen670

Peoples possesions and chattel? Now,What exactly does that mean?

I was discussing how your god endorses the ownership of people, whereby they become chattel . Perhaps you haven't read these parts of your jesusyahweh gods' instructions on good living


Luke 12:47 And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes.


NRSV) First Timothy 6:1-6 Let all who are under the yoke of slavery regard their masters as worthy of all honor, so that the name of God and the teaching may not be blasphemed. Those who have believing masters must not be disrespectful to them on the ground that they are members of the church; rather they must serve them all the more, since those who benefit by their service are believers and beloved. Teach and urge these duties. Whoever teaches otherwise and does not agree with the sound words of our Lord Jesus

NRSV) Exodus 21:20-21 When a slave owner strikes a male or female slave with a rod and the slave dies immediately, the owner shall be punished. But if the slave survives a day or two, there is no punishment; for the slave is the owner’s property.

This is how much a slave was worth back in the good old days --

Leviticus 27:3-7
Male, 60+ years: 15 shekels
Female, 60+ years: 10 shekels
Male, 20-60 years: 50 shekels
Female, 20-60 years: 30 shekels
Male, 5-20 years: 20 shekels
Female, 5-20 years: 10 shekels
Male, 1 month-5 years: 5 shekels
Female, 1 month-5 years: 3 shekels

reply to post by helen670

As for twisting words? Please, I have not twisted any words...nor do I need to twist them,what purpose would that serve?

I don't recall accusing you of twisting words, I did however accuse you of cherry picking the bibles.

something screams BS in my head too, sorry I wont bother reading the whole thing.

This is a sign of the wonders to come. In the next three years you will see more stories like this. Never the less, the scoffers will only cry with increasing vigor. "Its a hoax! That guy is a liar. Don't be fooled"

The question to ask yourselves is "What if that story is true? Where does that leave you?"

Atheism is not a philosophy but a lack thereof.

reply to post by moocowman


Well, I cant argue with what you said , but I think more research should be done about what exactly happened!
It seems that the research on the internet has been either deleted or purposely taken away or lost?
It's kind of weird why information like this would not be found in History books or studied at schools, dont you think?
Now we are getting somewhere!

ICXC NIKA
helen

reply to post by moocowman


Well If I do this, then it is not on purpose, sorry!

IX
helen

Originally posted by moocowman
reply to post by helen670

 

Peoples possesions and chattel? Now,What exactly does that mean?

I was discussing how your god endorses the ownership of people, whereby they become chattel . Perhaps you haven't read these parts of your jesusyahweh gods' instructions on good living


Luke 12:47 And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes.


NRSV) First Timothy 6:1-6 Let all who are under the yoke of slavery regard their masters as worthy of all honor, so that the name of God and the teaching may not be blasphemed. Those who have believing masters must not be disrespectful to them on the ground that they are members of the church; rather they must serve them all the more, since those who benefit by their service are believers and beloved. Teach and urge these duties. Whoever teaches otherwise and does not agree with the sound words of our Lord Jesus

NRSV) Exodus 21:20-21 When a slave owner strikes a male or female slave with a rod and the slave dies immediately, the owner shall be punished. But if the slave survives a day or two, there is no punishment; for the slave is the owner’s property.

This is how much a slave was worth back in the good old days --

Leviticus 27:3-7
Male, 60+ years: 15 shekels
Female, 60+ years: 10 shekels
Male, 20-60 years: 50 shekels
Female, 20-60 years: 30 shekels
Male, 5-20 years: 20 shekels
Female, 5-20 years: 10 shekels
Male, 1 month-5 years: 5 shekels
Female, 1 month-5 years: 3 shekels

My God is the Lord Jesus Christ....His people are all who Follow Him and His teachings,as Jesus Christ instructed His Apostles to Baptize all in the Name of The Father, Son and Holy Spirit!

LUKE 12 :47

Wilful ignorance can be of various degrees.
There is the wilful ignorance that refuses to believe even when the truth is staring you in the face – this is the most serious kind, the kind practised by the Pharisees and the heresiarchs.
But a man can also be said to be wilfully ignorant if he does not take the steps that are necessary in order to discover the truth – this is less serious, but still blameworthy,
and is characteristic of many of those who followed the Pharisees and the heresiarchs.
Thus we read: "That servant who knew his master's will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes. But he that knew not, and did things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes.
For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall much be required; and he to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more" (Luke 12.47-48).
To Judge or not to Judge

Everything in the Bible has a meaning behind it...it depends who you go to for the Translations and interpretation of Scriptures!

ICXC NIKA
helen

reply to post by helen670

Well, I cant argue with what you said , but I think more research should be done about what exactly happened!

I beg to differ lol but you can argue at with what I said, plenty of research has and is being done. We just have to make the effort to study it with an open but critical mind, for example - It is ludicrous to be told the bibles are truth then reading portions of them and try to make what we read fit what we have been told is meant.

Yes we are reliant on more proficient scholars for much of our information, but then common sense would dictate to way up "all" the evidence or lack of.

It seems that the research on the internet has been either deleted or purposely taken away or lost?

Perhaps it is wiser to to use libraries, yes there can be some very valid info on line but much is dog doo. Serious researchers and academics of any subject mostly present their findings on paper, the internet can be an invaluable tool to become acquainted with these.

We have to bare in mind that all is opinion and critically asses those opinions, but, and the big but is. We have to put the effort in which includes thinking critically about all view points.

It's kind of weird why information like this would not be found in History books or studied at schools, dont you think? Now we are getting somewhere!

Again, libraries and book sellers are a great source of information, relying on what is presented to us at school is yet another case of an individual (teacher) presenting a case with their own or schools bias added.

I hesitate to say this on ATS as I could get flamed for it, so I'll use the phrase lol "as a rule" books simply don't disappear, neither do papers published by academics, we just have to decide what we're looking for and put the effort into it.

When it comes to school then it's up to the parent to get involved and pique the childs' interest in whatever so they may get a fuller picture. We have to bear in mind there is a limited amount of time for the child to be presented with best evidence, being aware of any agenda the educators may have.

reply to post by helen670

Everything in the Bible has a meaning behind it...it depends who you go to for the Translations and interpretation of Scriptures!

What you present here Helen, is a complete failure to address what I presented to you. I don't want to appear patronizing but you really have gone off on a tangent here.

Our discussion was that I, when reading the bibles observe that, Yahweh Jesus endorses the ownership of people.

I come to this conclusion because -

A) It was common practice to do this and there is ample historical and archeological evidence showing it.

B) The scriptures I quoted clearly give instruction on slavery.

For you to then argue that this is incorrect you can either, claim that the word "slave" has been mistranslated or the entire scriptures (which would obviously include all others on the subject in the bibles) were mistranslated, which you appear to be doing.

If you claim the word slave were mistranslated and really means "Servant" then we only have to use a bit of logic to figure it out.

A servant implies paid service or service in lieu of, how realistic is it, to expect an employee to accede to being beaten to near death by the employer and to the employer "owning" him ?

I won't insult your intelligence by going further on how the word "Slave" meant a person of bondage (chattel) and was certainly not a servant as in paid employee, although it goes without saying that the wealthy could have paid employees.

If you then claim that the verse themselves were mistranslated, IE in error then you have to accept that whatever other bibles there are containing these verses are also mistranslated.

This then leaves you as the reader in a very awkward position as, you are reading a book and accepting its' claims as literal truth for you to live by.
But you are fully aware that a significant portion of the text has been mistranslated and does not mean what it actually says, because if it did then this would be in conflict with what you have chosen to believe.

The obvious question then is. If this significant portion of your book is in error, how much else of it is in error ?

If you believe that there are no more errors, how did you come to this conclusion, did you obtain the same book with the errors corrected ?

Who corrected the errors ?

If the only errors in your book are the ones we have discussed then why do you use an erroneous book, why not stick with the one without the errors ?

If all copies of the book available to you contain what you maintain is a mistranslation (an error) and there are none available with the error corrected. Then would it not be logical to accept that in this instance the book is not in error but you do not wish to accept what it says ?

You have to accept the fact Helen, the source of your belief is a book written by fallible men, you may have been told things about the book by other people, but nevertheless their source of information is also the same book.

You pointed out that there is an error in your book, so logically this has an affect on your belief. You may not want to believe that according to your book, the ownership of people was condoned by the Yahwehjesus god but it's there in black and white.

I have no doubt in my mind, that you will somehow continue to rationalize (rational lies) the obvious problem of this particular subject as some sort of cock up in the editing room. No doubt you will put it out of your mind and either not read the bibles, have a pastor feed you some BS or continue to cherry pick the good bits that fit what you want to believe.

reply to post by helen670

Everything in the Bible has a meaning behind it...it depends who you go to for the Translations and interpretation of Scriptures!

This statement makes it quite clear that you accept whatever you are told about the bibles as long as it does not conflict with what you want to believe.

You have here suspended your faculties of critical thinking and reason, you're making assumptions based on wishful thinking and what others who desire the same, thing tell you.

You make claims about your belief insistent that they are correct, yet you openly admit that the source of your belief can be interpreted in many ways.

You choose to accept person( A)s' interpretation not because you have made the effort to validate his or her claim but because you want/need it to be valid, for it to be otherwise would invalidate your belief which would probably cause you emotional conflict.

At this juncture it is normal xtian practice to fall back on faith, it doesn't matter because your paradigm is based on "faith" .

It doesn't matter that there could be serious factual errors in the source of your belief system as you don't require evidence, faith suspends the need for it, IE you choose not to believe.

This would all be well and good aside from the fact that you have spent a great deal of time insisting on what you claim to be factually correct.

Let us see Helen, whether you choose to pull out the "Faith" card here, or follow your convictions through and reason your belief system.

Originally posted by moocowman
reply to post by helen670

 

Everything in the Bible has a meaning behind it...it depends who you go to for the Translations and interpretation of Scriptures!

What you present here Helen, is a complete failure to address what I presented to you. I don't want to appear patronizing but you really have gone off on a tangent here.

Our discussion was that I, when reading the bibles observe that, Yahweh Jesus endorses the ownership of people.

I come to this conclusion because -

A) It was common practice to do this and there is ample historical and archeological evidence showing it.

B) The scriptures I quoted clearly give instruction on slavery.

For you to then argue that this is incorrect you can either, claim that the word "slave" has been mistranslated or the entire scriptures (which would obviously include all others on the subject in the bibles) were mistranslated, which you appear to be doing.

If you claim the word slave were mistranslated and really means "Servant" then we only have to use a bit of logic to figure it out.

A servant implies paid service or service in lieu of, how realistic is it, to expect an employee to accede to being beaten to near death by the employer and to the employer "owning" him ?

I won't insult your intelligence by going further on how the word "Slave" meant a person of bondage (chattel) and was certainly not a servant as in paid employee, although it goes without saying that the wealthy could have paid employees.

If you then claim that the verse themselves were mistranslated, IE in error then you have to accept that whatever other bibles there are containing these verses are also mistranslated.

This then leaves you as the reader in a very awkward position as, you are reading a book and accepting its' claims as literal truth for you to live by.
But you are fully aware that a significant portion of the text has been mistranslated and does not mean what it actually says, because if it did then this would be in conflict with what you have chosen to believe.

The obvious question then is. If this significant portion of your book is in error, how much else of it is in error ?

If you believe that there are no more errors, how did you come to this conclusion, did you obtain the same book with the errors corrected ?

Who corrected the errors ?

If the only errors in your book are the ones we have discussed then why do you use an erroneous book, why not stick with the one without the errors ?

If all copies of the book available to you contain what you maintain is a mistranslation (an error) and there are none available with the error corrected. Then would it not be logical to accept that in this instance the book is not in error but you do not wish to accept what it says ?

You have to accept the fact Helen, the source of your belief is a book written by fallible men, you may have been told things about the book by other people, but nevertheless their source of information is also the same book.

You pointed out that there is an error in your book, so logically this has an affect on your belief. You may not want to believe that according to your book, the ownership of people was condoned by the Yahwehjesus god but it's there in black and white.

I have no doubt in my mind, that you will somehow continue to rationalize (rational lies) the obvious problem of this particular subject as some sort of cock up in the editing room. No doubt you will put it out of your mind and either not read the bibles, have a pastor feed you some BS or continue to cherry pick the good bits that fit what you want to believe.

Hi moo/

Lets be honest here....I never went to any priests or similar to look for answers to my many questions, ever!
And when I did, my questions asked were not liked by the priests I went to...I was told to keep out of the politics side of things!
Politics and Scriptures?
I hated politics, and that word never entered my mind...I didn't even ask a political question, or maybe I did and did not know it.
Well, that just got me puzzled as to what he meant.
I asked others by phone and some didn't know what I was getting at...so I did lots of reading...and political conspiracies are not my liking at all,so I never fully understood what was being said.
Well, to cut a longggg story short,I read the lives of simple humble monks and Elders of the early church and THERE, I found what I was looking for...all made alot more sense!

+Believe me, I have dealt with demons....that's another story on its own.

In the New Testament the word 'Slave' is used to mean as such, a slave, but also Jesus Christ Himself became a 'Slave' to man(out of Humility)to teach that man is longer a SLAVE to the Devil(sin-bodily death)because what needed to happen was the Old Testament 'curse' was to be crushed(dissolved)by Christ Himself.
Man could not do this, he was not able to release the 'curse'(STING OF DEATH)and what was needed was a Second ADAM, of which Jesus Christ is also called!
If we do something bad, we are guilty of that crime,we also become a 'Slave' to that crime, unless we are released from that crime.
On Heaven and on Earth, man becomes a SLAVE to one or the other.
A choice we all make.

An example of Gods law/ repent of bad deeds and show good works,and it is forgiven.(see Scriptures )
An example of Man's law /depending on what crime it is, sentencing to what ever judment was made will be served.


“Henceforth I call you not servants… but I have called you friends; for all things that I have heard of My Father I have made known unto you” (Jn. 15: 15).

Moo, in the end, the Bible is just a book, I know this!
It's purpose could not possibly be to deceive because it is based on free knowledge and free choice...we are not 'bound by an oath' by a book.
Whereas the lives of those humble righteous people of the Lord, cannot all be based on B.S because there are certain unexplained miracles that no one can give an answer to or even try to come up with at what was experienced by them, and those around them!
...I can personally vouch for this(I dont have God talking to me, nor do I hear things! ) Supernatural stuff like Demons(personally myself) and Godly stuff,certain appearances in a dream like state(not myself personally)
Most of the cherry pickings happen in cult type religious systems..to lure you in....of which I do not belong.
If someone follows a religion because it grants them 'wish' type fantasies,of which it gives them false happiness(enjoyed only for a time)then it is simply based on deception!(my honest opinion)
Let's say I am given a pricey gold ring(can't spell neclase? )and for awhile I enjoy what it gives me(beats me, as to what it does?)I look great and all that, but what purspose in life does it serve me?
I will probably worry that it might get stolen or get bashed for it or what if I was to lose it?
I would end up worrying in the long run, because what I thought was true happiness has only proven to me in the end that it made me more miserabble then what I began with.
True happiness is not to be a slave that intraps you!
I agree there are many books out there to deceive, but what does one do?
Do we then just lose all hope and trust NOT, everything and everyone?

(sorry, I went off topic-a little,maybe more)

ICXC NIKA
helen

Originally posted by moocowman

Originally posted by Kandinsky
I am deeply, deeply dubious of this story. My BS Detector is off the chart. It's hard to even imagine that people talk in the way the article describes. Mighty Miracles! and the Light of the Lord! Is he a Doctor or Don King?

Totally agree dude, yet more xtian propaganda BS to convince the sheeple next Sunday at church.


We can observe that the surgeon never questions how jesus can allegedly raise the dead as good as a paramedic but, not regenerate an amputated limb even though he's supposed to be a god.

We have to remember that perfectly good scientists can be indoctrinated with the jesus delusion and rationalize their way through med school.


What do jesus, viagra and a defibrillator have in common ?

There is evidence for 2 of them raising the dead the other sucks the life out of the living.

Since I don't accept the incarnation of the divine is wrapped up in the JedeoCristian/Moslem world view, I can't give you a rational response to what seems an irrational event. As for what people latch on to at the end of life, I don't believe in any divine truth. We judge the world were in and perhaps beyond by what we have experienced in this life. At the end of the day, when you know you are dying, (and you will know), it makes little difference if you call out to Vishnu or Jesus. The ability to accept judgement and say "i'm sorry", goes a very long way.

reply to post by helen670

In the New Testament the word 'Slave' is used to mean as such, a slave,

Well it's been very hard work to get to this point of agreement Helen, but we got here nonetheless.

So, what do we have ?

A set of scriptures in books, that are claimed to be literal truth, said scripture make it quite clear that the deity represented by the books clearly condones slavery !

Your comments about jesus being a slave to this or that serve nothing but to detract from this obvious oxymoron when it comes to the question of your deity being compassionate.


As I observed but which you initially refute Helen, you cherry pick biblical scripture for items that fit into your belief and reject that which doesn't as an issue of translation or lack of understanding.

Where does this leave us ?

Well, my position is no different, I still observe that the bibles are not the word of a " compassionate all loving god", and one way to defend my claim is to point out that the said deity condones the "ownership" of other people.

For me this single aspect of your book is enough grounds to reject it completely.

You can now either try to defend slavery as a form of compassion, which we both know would be ridiculous, or stand down on any claim to the bibles (that contain the passages in question) being the literal word of your god.

No doubt, having conceded that the bibles are not the literal word of god you will then proceed to rationalize (rational lies) your position, and make the claim that the bibles were "inspired" by your god except the bits that weren't.

So then Helen the question remains, as the incidents of divinely condoned slavery in the bibles must in error , how much of the remainder of the bibles is also in error and why would you choose to accept erroneous hearsay as literal truth ?

reply to post by arbiture

The ability to accept judgement and say "i'm sorry", goes a very long way.

And who exactly is judging whom and for what reason ? What evidence do you have of this judgment ever taking place ?

reply to post by moocowman


Hi moo/

Is it really that bad to be called a "slave'' or ''servant''?
eg/I own a pet,is not the master myself and the animal is a slave/servant of myn?
This does not mean, that I mistreat the animal because I own the animal!
I will treat the animal as I would like to be treated.(well, to an extent)
I believe that the word 'slave' has been misused to an extent that it is taken away from it's true meaning in the Bible sense.
There are good and bad people in the world,would you agree?
Some will treat others with respect, no matter what position in power they hold.

I know that slavery is viwed differently to what western society has known...mistreating people for all purposes.
Being a slave to EVIL is not the same as being a slave too good.
If I am a slave to evil, then I do as evil does.
If I am a slave to good, then I also do good,to benefit those around me and
to earn their respect(which always does not happen)
God having become a man(took flesh) became a slave to man, so that man can see for themselves how man should treat one another regardless of their position...although, many did not see this and regarded Christ as some lowly prophet or some good person.
Jesus Christ did not come to set up His kingdom in this world,He came in the spiritual sense to save man from DEATH and unite man and God once again.
The Prophets that prophesied His coming knew of this, St John the Baptist is considered one of the Greatest Prophets,he was the forerunner of Jesus Christ and was feared amongst his people(feared by his greatness and righteousness)
And so in the End of times....We shall also see the rise of a Prophet(false)who will proclaim Antichrist in the world.
Raising people from the dead and all sorts of magick illusions will be done by the Antichrist ''so he maketh fire come from the skies'' these will have NO meaning in the spiritual sense, but only trickery and deceptions for entertainment purposes only.
Sorry went off subject again...

ICXC NIKA
helen

Originally posted by moocowman
reply to post by arbiture

 

The ability to accept judgement and say "i'm sorry", goes a very long way.

And who exactly is judging whom and for what reason ? What evidence do you have of this judgment ever taking place ?

Lets say that judgment day does not occur!
Would it really be that bad to ask forgiveness of all the wrongs done?
What exactly do you have to lose on your death bed,by asking forgiveness?
Your pride?
Think of the many people that once lived...how many do we remember for their kindness and humility?
Now what about the people that once lived in evil and died only knowing evil because their pride would not allow them to forgive?


ICXC NIKA
helen

reply to post by helen670

Is it really that bad to be called a "slave'' or ''servant''?

Helen, you are not stupid I know this, we both know that we are not discussing being called a name.

We are discussing the "ownership" of anther human being as a piece of property and your god condoning (which you have agreed is the case) this activity.

You seem to be making an effort to deflect the subject by introducing concepts of relationships between you and you pets and your god and you.

NO !

Please don't tell me that you in any way agree to "slavery" which you fully well know the meaning of, are you implying that you don't find the enslavement of another human being repugnant ?

Please stick to the subject at hand Helen.