Heart Surgeon tells of Resurrection from the Dead

reply to post by helen670


God Works in Mysterious ways, I have heard that so many many times, and always seems to be when there is no answer when asked for evidence or proof that it was God, I am not Atheist, that does not mean I am Christian, Muslim, or any other kind of organised religion, I do believe in a creator.

It seems that every time a supposed miracle happens, it always has to be the work of Jesus, why is that? can God not exist without Jesus?

I have always wondered, 2009 years since Christ, what or who was doing the Miracles before that?

I believe everyone to their own, but what I do object to is a God who would condemn any single thing to an eternity of suffering if they do not do it God's way, that to me is not a God who loves what they Created, those are just the words of man, words meant to create fear in order to control, and an excuse to punish, usually in the name of God, if their belief is so strong why not leave the Punishment to God? after all isn't there supposed to be a Judgement day?

I think this Doctor is preaching where he should be teaching.

Not trying to antagonise in any way shape or form, just wondering why non believers are labelled like it is wrong.

The case would probably have been a non-issue if the surgea had not prayed, and it wouldnt have been even a topic of discussion !!

the two other examples I posted was also people waking up after being dead for some time..

This story written in the OP does not contain the same detail as in the NEWS report video.

"He said, 'Doctor Crandall, it's the most amazing thing. I was in a dark room and there was no light. It was complete darkness and I felt I was in a casket and I kept repeating that I was so disappointed.' He said the disappointment came from the fact that none of his family, friends or colleagues, had come to visit him. Then he told me, 'All of a sudden, these men came in and they wrapped me up and they threw me in the trash.'

source

But in the video the actual patient never repeats this, but does say he stood with god.

Also in the story the Dr says he prayed for the man and he start moving and mumbling. But in the video he says he shocked the dead patient one last time and that is when the heart beat returned.

Video

So for me the story changes too much for it to be truth that prayer alone revived this man.

I always tell my children about lies. You will always remember the truth because it is what happened. But you will never remember a lie because you will forget your story.

Rhain

Originally posted by azzllin
reply to post by helen670

 

God Works in Mysterious ways, I have heard that so many many times, and always seems to be when there is no answer when asked for evidence or proof that it was God, I am not Atheist, that does not mean I am Christian, Muslim, or any other kind of organised religion, I do believe in a creator.

It seems that every time a supposed miracle happens, it always has to be the work of Jesus, why is that? can God not exist without Jesus?

I have always wondered, 2009 years since Christ, what or who was doing the Miracles before that?

I believe everyone to their own, but what I do object to is a God who would condemn any single thing to an eternity of suffering if they do not do it God's way, that to me is not a God who loves what they Created, those are just the words of man, words meant to create fear in order to control, and an excuse to punish, usually in the name of God, if their belief is so strong why not leave the Punishment to God? after all isn't there supposed to be a Judgement day?

I think this Doctor is preaching where he should be teaching.

Not trying to antagonise in any way shape or form, just wondering why non believers are labelled like it is wrong.

Hi azzllin/

When it is said that God works in mysterious ways, it means just that ''mysterious ways'!
A mystery in the Biblical sense is called a mystery because we as humans cannot have full knowledge of the word!
God works within everyone...all in different ways.
If we have just a littl faith, we may be able to see it as an unexplained supernatural experience, but it is there!

Why is it that God cannot exist without Jesus Christ?

I and my Father are one (John 10:30)
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God (John 1:1)
For in him dwelleth all the fullness of the Godhead bodily (Colossians 2:9)] by Whom all things were made; [All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made (John 1:3)
God was manifest in the flesh (1 Timothy 3:16)
And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us (John 1:14)

The Father is God.
The Son Jesus Christ is the WORD.
The Holy Spirit is the SOUL.

God LOVES all of mankind ands wishes no one to eternal suffering...this is why He became flesh to SHOW us PHYSICALLY how one who believes might be treated.
He was tempted like all of man is tempted.
He was born with animals out of humility....He came not as God, but to SHOW us how to treat each other.
This is why in the Second coming of Christ it is said He comes in His GLORY(God-Head) with His Angelic hosts and the Apostels to judge the living and the dead.
This second coming WONT be like the first...where He came to release the CURSE of Satan(the devil)DEATH becomes void,we get a second chance at entering into heaven,only by free will and God's Mercy,will one enter eternal life or eternal condemnation.
Hell was made for Satan and not for man.
eg/
it is similar to breaking a leg or an arm....it may hurt a little or alot for awhile, but it needs care and rest,after which it heals and gets better.
Suffering in ones life is actually Gods Mercy for the benefit of our souls.
It is also similar to what we do in our everyday lives...if we are happy and have no cares or worries, we forget what it is like for others that are less fortunate then us.
Similarily if we suffer physically or mentally, only then we begin to realize what the less fortunate person is going through.
God does what is best for us in each of us individually.
Sayings of the Early Church Fathers!
What rain is for seeds tears are for those who are afflicted…Saint John Chrysostom(Golden mouth)

Affliction was allowed to make those afflicted more careful and more pious.(Saint John Chrysostom)
It is THEN that we begin to feel humbled,we are weakened by our own afflictions so that we truly WAKE up!

I agree with your words of 'Judgment day' ....many walk blindely and do not listen to what Scripture says!
Gods mercy is what saves, not mans condemnation of hell.
You're not antagonizing!
There are many questions that have no answers...
I guess this is why Gods knowledge is greater then mans will ever be!
Knowledge is that of faith!

ICXC NIKA
helen

Originally posted by System
reply to post by Ferris.Bueller.II

 

Amazing things happen all the time. People have ben declared dead before and come back to life. There was that toddler that was underwater for over an hour and recovered without serious brain damage.

I don't think we can claim God is responsible for these "miracles" just because we don't know how they happen.

I think the doctor saying it was an act of God is BS, and they are just slightly exaggerating the condition of the "dead guy". Although I do believe he appeared very dead.

Autowrench:
Right on. I too have seen may things that border on the supernatural, but I do not attribute these things to a Christian Deity each and every time. when the doctor said, "The Holy Spirit spoke to me," that is when I knew better. I have friends who are doctors, and they too have told me of things not of this world. For one thing, and the main thing, in my book, IF God, just one time only, reached down and did something like this....just once now, that would negate free will, and the man would be seen as supernatural godman.

You see, there is a force out there, called the "Ether," and "Orgone," (The Force, Luke!) that is composed of pure energy, and it can be bent, and altered to suit our desires at will. Once in tune with it, it become quite easy to have your own way, according to will, with a heart of love, and harm toward none. "An Harm Ye None, Do What Thou Wilst", shall be the whole of the Law. (Crowley, and other Wiccan sources) LOVE is the Force, but Love has two polarities, and you all know them well. How many times have you heard someone say, "I hate you!? Did you not know that Hate is one polarity of Love? Love=Hate=Love=Hate. Balance is the key. Even a God, having all of the power attributed to them, would have two sides that make up a whole.

Do you think for even a second that the powers that be do not use this power for their own agendas? Do they not call on the Ancient Gods to help them? Of course they do. It pays to know thine enemy.

As for the man who rose from the "dead:" The medical personnel embellished the story, and the guy wasn't as close as they said. Perhaps, like me, he was pushed back into his body when he tried to leave it? It happened to me, during a heart attack. I was met by three beings of light (others were there, too) who said to me, "go back, it is not time yet." About that time they did the "Clear!" thing, and back I was. In my studies, I have discovered that each human being has 5 "exit points" in their life, 5 times they will be close to leaving the body, and at any one time they can do this. I also believe that some have a special mission to preform, and they cannot leave until this is done, no matter how close they come.

It's funny that people cannot just say a thing is real, without attaching a God to it?? People, we live in an artificial reality anyway! We have no Master(s) we are our own beings, each one of us has a piece of the One Who Is Two Creator inside them. We are in training, folks, for something bigger and better, a new utopian world that we ourselves create. Anyone agree?

reply to post by autowrench


"In my studies, I have discovered that each human being has 5 "exit points" in their life, 5 times they will be close to leaving the body, and at any one time they can do this. I also believe that some have a special mission to preform, and they cannot leave until this is done, no matter how close they come."

Hi, can you elaborate on this? Or point me towards where I can get started researching this concept? This "5 exit point" concept sounds completely fascinating to me.

reply to post by autowrench


Hi auto/

Free will is not to interfere with mans mind in a choice in a matter.
Prayer on the other hand, is a heart felt desire that comes from within....it is usually said at the time of unrest or suffering or pity for someone or even of oneself suffering(although monks and Elders of early Christianity welcomed sufferings as this drew them to Humility,which is the opposite of PRIDE)...
If Prayer is said in a kind of LOVE that is felt toward another human being,it is done out of humility.
God does not interfere with free will in making choices, but 'heart felt' prayer for concerns of another is done out of humility other then yourself.
Did not God say He hears the prayers of righteous men,even if it be just ONE?
If a little faith can do miracles, then I'm sure that being concerned for another human being other then yourself, can raise people from the dead.
What about different faiths?
Again where is the 'Prayer' coming from?
Is it out of humility because we care for someone other then ourselves?
This again is how God works in Individual people.
In the Old Tesament God allowed Demons to work their magick!
Why?
Not because Satan is god, but because the people CHOSE to put their beliefs in gods rather then the one true God.
God “maketh His sun rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust” (Matthew 5.45)
Not ALL that call on the Lord shall be saved...Last minute repentance out of Ignorance?
“I know that you acted in ignorance” (Acts 3.17), after which thousands repented and were baptized.
Again, the Apostle Paul “received mercy because ''
''I had acted ignorantly in unbelief” (I Timothy 1.13)...God acts in mysterious ways!
Those that DONT want anything to do with the truth....

“because they refused to love the truth and so be saved.
Therefore God sendeth upon them a strong delusion,
to make them believe what is false,
so that all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness” (II Thessalonians 2.10-12)...Does it not make sense that this would please those that had pleasure in unrighteousness,if this is what they wanted?

Hope that makes sense.
ICXC NIKA
helen

reply to post by azzllin


Hi azzllin/
Sorry,I forgot to answer..

I have always wondered, 2009 years since Christ, what or who was doing the Miracles before that?

Since we are speaking of Scripture and Christ...was He not called the WORD?
IN THE BEGINNING WAS THE WORD, and the Word was with God and the Word was God.
Miracles happen all the time...I guess it's our negative mind that wont allow us to believe in Gods miracles.
We would rather say 'I' is greater.
If only we allow ourselves a little 'faith' of what the early Christians had!

ICXC NIKA
helen

Double post

[edit on 8/23/2009 by helen670]

reply to post by helen670

To unbelievers...God works in mysterious ways and not all Miracles or things of the unexplained are always identical.

When they become identical this would be testable, when testable this becomes science and no longer mysterious.

If there was any truth in this story (clearly there are lies) then the surgeon, would simply put down his scalpel and repeat what he did to save more lives.

Time and again when xtians are asked why they need medical insurance or to see a doctor when they've just come from church. One of the same old lame excuses is that yahwehjesus works through doctors.

Well here we finally have evidence of this ?

Ah well ahum, no just another BS twisted anecdote.

Let's be real about it, how many decent compassionate doctors, on discovering that a mere prayer could raise the dead. Would not head straight down to the Morgue and repeat the process on the bodies of infants etc ?

But we all know the BS answer to this -

Jesus doesn't answer prayers in the way we want to .

reply to post by moocowman


Hi moo/

Jesus doesn't answer prayers in the way we want to?
You are right, He does not!
Why?
Because prayer must be sincere, without thoughts of oneself and done with humility and not because it would benefit 'us' in some way....be it of a loved one!
eg of Famous faces and the likes///
As human beings, we all get old and die of old age,some of us dont ever want to get old and look for wordly ways to help us in avoiding the inevitable(sp?)so we look at ways to stay young forever by plastic surgery and the plastic likes of them.
All the above is about the prideful nature of the 'I' and this kind of prayer or 'wishful thinking' wont happen, ever!
It is only when 'Humility' steps in that prayer works miracles.

ICXC NIKA
helen

reply to post by helen670

Miracles happen all the time...

Except when they don't

I guess it's our negative mind that wont allow us to believe

No it's simply a matter of corroborative evidence.

I note with interest that the definition of miracle changes greatly according to the amount of evidence required of an xtian.

A baby is born, that's a miracle,

The sun came from behind a cloud and melted the ice just as the vehicle would have careered over the mountain. That's a miracle.

Xtianity takes all cases of good fortune and slaps a miracle work of god sticker on it.

All the bad stuff get's the devil sticker, leaving nothing to chance or human responsibility.

Of all the people that did not die on 911 are we to assume that that was a miracle and yawhe jesus saved them ?

If so why did he not save everyone ?

If he didn't save everyone because he moves on mysterious ways, then why the hell blame Al Quaeda ?


If Al Quaeda were under the influence of the devil, then it's yahweh jesus' bloody fault for creating it.

If al quaeda were under instruction of Allah, then it's about bloody time that Allah and Yahweh jesus tallied up who has the most kills in their name and the loser naff off back to nothingness .

reply to post by helen670

jesus doesn't answer prayers in the way we want to? You are right, He does not!

Except when he does

Why?

because he's imaginary

Because prayer must be sincere, without thoughts of oneself and done with humility and not because it would benefit 'us' in some way....be it of a loved one!

Well this is obviously BS, why don't you and all other xtians not pop into a pediatrics ward or war zone of a weekend and save someone else s child from a miserable death ?

Here's a short video,please answer the question it asks with the same humility that you speak of.





.

Personally, I would have a heck of a problem with a doctor relying on faith to help me as opposed to scientific medicine....but thats just me....

Originally posted by moocowman
reply to post by helen670

 

Miracles happen all the time...

Except when they don't

I guess it's our negative mind that wont allow us to believe

No it's simply a matter of corroborative evidence.

I note with interest that the definition of miracle changes greatly according to the amount of evidence required of an xtian.

A baby is born, that's a miracle,

The sun came from behind a cloud and melted the ice just as the vehicle would have careered over the mountain. That's a miracle.

Xtianity takes all cases of good fortune and slaps a miracle work of god sticker on it.

All the bad stuff get's the devil sticker, leaving nothing to chance or human responsibility.

Of all the people that did not die on 911 are we to assume that that was a miracle and yawhe jesus saved them ?

If so why did he not save everyone ?

If he didn't save everyone because he moves on mysterious ways, then why the hell blame Al Quaeda ?


If Al Quaeda were under the influence of the devil, then it's yahweh jesus' bloody fault for creating it.

If al quaeda were under instruction of Allah, then it's about bloody time that Allah and Yahweh jesus tallied up who has the most kills in their name and the loser naff off back to nothingness .

Ok, you are obviously upset!
Im sure that all EVILS are not the Devils, and all GOODS are not Gods.
People are capable of doing evil and doing good.
It is a CHOICE that each of us make that influences the situation.
I would say that a belief in a religion and what it teaches plays a big role in what people do!

Again 9 11 amongsts many other similar tragedies were done and still continue to happen by the evil of mans minds or hearts or whatever it is they have!
As to Why and for whatever reason, only THEY know!
I will say this again, God does not interfere with MAN because man is not a robot and is not controlled like a mechanical beast.
Free will is a choice in matters...those choices always have consequences.
An action always has a reaction...good and bad, depending on the choice.

In Scripture,Satan is also called the Devil(DECEIVER,A LIAR)he works through the mind,he tempts and it is our free will to act upon it.
This does not nesassarily mean that SATAN is fully at fault, does it?
It's our choices in life that each of us make that will also determine the end result,be it of good or bad, it is Free will!
As for HIDDEN secrets by those that say otherwise,all shall be not hidden forever!

Oh,I nearly forgot, your last paragraph made me laugh(literally a smile)Im sure many would like them both to come down and do some explaining!

Take care,

ICXC NIKA
helen

reply to post by moocowman


Hi moo/
You want to me to watch a jug of milk?
But I dont even like milk, let alone pray to milk.


ICXC NIKA
helen

reply to post by ChemBreather
Disclaimer: As elsewhere!

Explanation: RE: "The case would probably have been a non-issue if the surgea had not prayed, and it wouldnt have been even a topic of discussion !!"....Or if you as the OP hadn't posted it without the original source linked or failing to mention that it was a christian Doctors forum! :p

See I quote your misdirection here "At World Doctors Conference, Heart Surgeon Relates Astounding Account -
of a Resurrection from the Dead."

Oh and what was that very 1st thing you posted after the topic hmmm? Was it this ===> " The best medicine is Jesus Christ."....Seems to me you were pushing a religious agenda 1st and are now trying to play dodgeball! Care to refute?

Personal Disclosure: I noticed in the video provided by Ferris.Bueller.II
at the 3:55 mark where the lazarus clone says that it was "Bob" who stayed with him! Bob??? WTF! happened to Jesus or Yahweh etc???

P.S. An angel called Bob! :shk: Maybe Jay and Silent Bob got promoted after doing Dogma? Only God knows ya know as she sorta works in mysterious ways huh!

reply to post by helen670

Ok, you are obviously upset!

No, why should I be

Im sure that all EVILS are not the Devils, and all GOODS are not Gods.

Hmm so if all good is not gods' where does that which doesn't, come from if not from God ?

Again 9 11 amongsts many other similar tragedies were done and still continue to happen by the evil of mans minds or hearts or whatever it is they have!

This does not answer the problem I put to you

Originally posted by OmegaLogos
reply to post by ChemBreather

 

Disclaimer: As elsewhere!

Explanation: RE: "The case would probably have been a non-issue if the surgea had not prayed, and it wouldnt have been even a topic of discussion !!"....Or if you as the OP hadn't posted it without the original source linked or failing to mention that it was a christian Doctors forum! :p

See I quote your misdirection here "At World Doctors Conference, Heart Surgeon Relates Astounding Account -
of a Resurrection from the Dead."

Oh and what was that very 1st thing you posted after the topic hmmm? Was it this ===> " The best medicine is Jesus Christ."....Seems to me you were pushing a religious agenda 1st and are now trying to play dodgeball! Care to refute?

Personal Disclosure: I noticed in the video provided by Ferris.Bueller.II
at the 3:55 mark where the lazarus clone says that it was "Bob" who stayed with him! Bob???

WTF! happened to Jesus or Yahweh etc???

P.S. An angel called Bob! :shk: Maybe Jay and Silent Bob got promoted after doing Dogma? Only God knows ya know as she sorta works in mysterious ways huh!

I'm not pushing any agenda, And by the opening statement, it was suposed to be abit sarcastic: God heals all, Christ is the holy medicine etc.

But, feel free to have your opinions on it.
Futher more, I cant see the importens of 'where' the article comes from has to do with the story, It was surly a God like experience for these people, and that is an Good thing !!

And Im not dodgeballing any thing...

reply to post by ChemBreather
Disclaimer: As elsewhere!

Explanation: I reread the OP in light of your disclosure RE: It was sarcasm! and I can now see it in that light and have recalibrated my outlook and I apologize If I was a "little knee jerk"* [*=read as A BIG JERK! :shk: Me a ]!

So moving on RE: "It was surly a God like experience for these people, and that is an Good thing !" and I fully agree with you and I would love to discuss the pro's and cons of it! We both obviously see it as a pro but can you forsee any cons that might come attached to it for both recipients and the community at large? What if a heinious criminal who was sentenced to death was AUTO brought back to "life" several hrs after justice was done and signed off by the attending doctor and other official witnesses etc! Not likely but I pose the question anyway for yours and other members consideration!

Personal Disclosure: RE: " Im not dodgeballing any thing" ... And I agree! Thanks for replying!