Palin 'death panel' claim sets Truth-O-Meter ablaze

Originally posted by CuriousSkeptic
At this point even though I have a few issues with the health bill I want it to pass just so I can laugh in these people's faces.

I think you summed up the left's position pretty well. It's not about doing what's right. It's about revenge, eh?

And you wonder why the majority of Americans are p.o.'d about this.

[edit on 11-8-2009 by Freenrgy2]

Originally posted by weedwhacker
reply to post by jdub297

 

If we are "free to choose," why even mention it in a LAW that will be implemented by agencies and providers with a financial incentive to perform these "services."

It MUST be performed, and re-performed, regardless of the patient/family, by all doctors accepting Medicare patients. They are given money to do this.

No, you are being told this, and whoever is saying it is trying to twist your mind.

You are wrong.

You presume to know what my thought processes are and how I evaluate the law.

Prove it, or admit you've injected your own bias into your assessment.

Any doctor accepting elderly patients "shall" perform the specified "end of life" services.

He gets paid if he does it every 5 years.

The services include the preparation of legal documents directing terminating medical treatment.

No one is 'telling me' anything.

I have dealt with legal documents and legislation for over 30 years. My profession requires objective analysis. And frank assessment.

No one is "saying" anything about this to me. And while my mind is sometimes twisted, I can objectively read, analyze and think for myself, without letting pre-conceptions or politics sway my conclusions.

You propose that no provisions permit what I've described. I've given them to you along with a reasonable interpretation.

You refuse to face facts inconsistent with your delusions or manipulative ideation. See, Section 1233.

Simple, really.

deny ignorance

jw

The US is heading inexorably towards, at best, developing world status through various obvious policies which dare not speak its name- good luck in the future with these health care plans in view of that

Or maybe it is just me, but have people forgotten about Science Czar John P. Holdren and his belief in Eugenics?

It is not my intention for this to sound like a political bait but it might be interpreted as such and I really hate to shout but:

CONNECT THE DOTS

A rushed bill ramrodded through Congress that will subject the entire US population to government ran and controlled healthcare. Letters and actions to identify and segregate dissenters. An administration that has not overturned sweeping Constitutional side-stepping powers from the previous administration. And a Eugenicist in a position of autonomous power and influence....do they really need to spell out a "death board" in the bill for people to notice such things?

But I can already see the replies now: "No, no, Ahabstar, that doesn't make you paranoid...it just means you are a racist since you disagree."

[edit on 11-8-2009 by Ahabstar]

reply to post by poedxsoldiervet


Lines 3-26 of the HC bill outlaws private insurance by forbidding enrollment after HR 3022 is passed into law, but page 16:sec. 102 describes protecting the choice to keep your current coverage.

Page 29:sec. 122 Essential benefits package defined in lines 4-16 in the HC bill - stating your health care is rationed.

Page 30: sec. 123 Health benefits advisory committee of HC bill - there will be a government committee that decides what treatments/benefits you get.

I could go on for hours (literally) and you say you have read it?

Originally posted by CuriousSkeptic

Have you read the bill? Could you please explain to us how senior citizen murders will be carried out?

Yes, I have.

There is no provision in the bill for senior citizen murders.

However, execution of the legislative mandates will be directed by federal agency regulations and carried out by "health care professionals."

Can you provide a source for any statement that the bill call for "senior citizen murders?"

I didn't think so.

Post a quote and link if you can.

I dare you.


Exaggeration, projection and 'straw man' arguments are the weakest tactics. They are neither logical nor admirable.

They evidence a lack of substance, and an effort to play upon emotion.

You've mastered these tactics. Well done.

Deny ignorance.

[edit on 11-8-2009 by jdub297]

Originally posted by 4nsicphd

Originally posted by undo
reply to post by 4nsicphd

 

EEK! are you serious?! i will talk to hubby about this. i had no idea they were doing that to our disabled vets!

I'm as serious as a heart attack, which, fortunately, I haven't had yet. And we Vietnam era guys are better off than the kids coming home now, what with their traumatic amputations, TBIs, and untreated PTSD. Most of us are nearing Medicare age.And it's going to get worse. 22,000 VA staff positions have been cut since 1994. Primary care docs are leaving the VA en masse as a result of the doctors' perceived diminishment of care. 20,000 acute care beds in VA facilities have been eliminated. At a time of increased need, admissions into VA facilities are being reduced by 25,000 per year.

I am going to call BS on your story.... You have some proof to back up any of these wild allegations about the budget cuts and VA losing 22,000 jobs since 1994 which I may add was under a Dem President. Got some proof to back that up?

I am also going to call BS on Primary Care Docs leaving en Masse from the VA. Being that I am an H.R person, We have plenty of pysicains. And must get paid 200,000 a year. Which is small potatoes considering what some other docs in NON-VA postions make. Also Alot of these docs are able to get huge bonus to make up for not making what NON-VA docs get as well as able to work at other hospitals or there own Private Practices which many of them have.

And really if you think about it, what you have mentioned can and will be whats avaible for all of you on a goverment health Insurance plan. Think about it really think about it.

All the wait time you have been waiting for to get VA treatment, your going to wait even longer when 300Million Americans get goverment health care.








www.va.gov...
www.navytimes.com...
www.vfw.org...
www.namvets.com...
www.va.gov...
www.whitehouse.gov...

Originally posted by skycopilot
reply to post by poedxsoldiervet

 

Lines 3-26 of the HC bill outlaws private insurance by forbidding enrollment after HR 3022 is passed into law, but page 16:sec. 102 describes protecting the choice to keep your current coverage.

Page 29:sec. 122 Essential benefits package defined in lines 4-16 in the HC bill - stating your health care is rationed.

Page 30: sec. 123 Health benefits advisory committee of HC bill - there will be a government committee that decides what treatments/benefits you get.

I could go on for hours (literally) and you say you have read it?

Um dude I agree with your point I am against the current Healthcare bill in the house... and I have read the bill..... so um you may want to re-read what I wrote.

Originally posted by poedxsoldiervet
reply to post by 4nsicphd

 

I am also a vet, who gets treatment at my local VA, The wait line is long to even see a doctor... And there are options out there for you, you should contact a case manager and you will get what you need. I dont see how you cant get a flu shot when they have open shot seasons for any Disabled Vet.. BTW I work at my local VA as well. Did you receive your injuries on Active Duty? If you did you should be taking care of... and have first priorty at federal jobs....

And the so called "Right Wing" Cuts diddnt happen, money is directed to the VA Hospitals with the most patients so VA administrators want as many vets as they can get into there system for more money..... Maybe you should call them...

It was very active duty, at about 28,000 feet over Muang Pakxan province in eastern Laos, where, according to the administration then, we weren't. Very short but very violent intersection with a Lavochkin OKB S-75 (
a/k/a SA-2 SAM. I talked to a case manager who seemed very dedicated to helping. But all he could offer is that there is a "walk-in" clinic, I guess for those who can walk, 75 miles away in St. Pete. To utilize the open shot season, you first have to be enrolled, and the VA facility here in not enrolling any new patients since thay are "full."
If there have been no budget cuts, why the reduction in staff of 22,000 and reduction of beds of 25,000 since 1994. The long waits you referred to are mainly to see a Primary Care physician, who acts as a gatekeeper for referrals.
I would be willing to wait, if at the end of the wait, there is treatment.
I do have to take some of the blame for my problems with the VA. When outprocessing from active duty, I didn't push hard enogh for a medical disharge or a 100% rating. I, like most at that time, just wanted to get the hell out (sorry mod) and go home.So I accepted the easy to get 25%.

reply to post by jdub297


Page 425:sec.1233 Advance care planning consultation Lines 4-12 (Gov. mandates advance care planning consult 'end of life')
Lines 17-19 Gov. will instruct and consult regarding living wills, durable power of attorney - this is mandatory!
Lines 22-25 and page 426 lines 1-3 - Gov. provides a list of end of life resources guiding you into death!
Page 427 lines 15-24 Gov. mandates program for orders for end of life; in other words, the Gov. has a say in how you die.

reply to post by poedxsoldiervet


Sorry - friendly fire. Meant to reply to another. AF vets flying above the ground-pounders sometimes make mistakes.

reply to post by brianmg5

I get the feeling that most of the nay sayers on this site assume the Obama administration is part of the NWO, Illuminati, Bilderburg, etc but isn't it possible that the Obama administration is a sincere entity within the corruption? I would recommend staying objective to allow all possibility's exist in your head instead of insisting that they have bad, selfish, or evil intentions

I would love to feel they did not have evil intentions but I am afraid the facts speak for themselves.
How could you even think this about your own grandmother if you were even remotely mentally healthy?

Obama cited the case of his grandmother, Madelyn Dunham, who died on the eve of his election, suggesting one way to cut medical costs would be to stop expensive procedures on people about to die.
Families, Obama said, need better information so they don't approve "additional tests or additional drugs that the evidence shows is not necessarily going to improve care."

"Maybe you're better off not having the surgery, but taking the painkiller," the president offered.

Obama was slightly more explicit in a May 3 interview with the New York Times, when he said there ought to be a national "conversation" over whether "sort of in the aggregate, society making those decisions to give my grandmother, or everybody else's aging grandparents or parents, a hip replacement when they're terminally ill is a sustainable model." Such decisions, added Obama, shouldn't be left to patients or their relatives, but to a "group" of "doctors, scientists, ethicists" who are not part of "normal political channels."

One such elite medical decision-maker would be Obama’s special adviser for health policy, Dr. Ezekiel Emanuel, brother of Rahm Emanuel. He's a longtime advocate of "age-weighted medical rationing" – meaning, the older you are, the less care you get, as in Britain.

www.wnd.com...

Emanuel thinks that the optimum age group for any worth let alone medical treatment is 15-40. Anyone outside that range is of lesser importance even to the point of a 20 yr old being more important than a 2 year old (because of wasted investment). Doctors will have no choice but will be instructed as to who will live or die by computer from the board's decree. What he thinks about 'defective' children makes my blood run cold...just look it up

Savings, he writes, will require changing how doctors think about their patients: Doctors take the Hippocratic Oath too seriously, "as an imperative to do everything for the patient regardless of the cost or effects on others" (Journal of the American Medical Association, June 18, 2008).
Yes, that's what patients want their doctors to do. But Emanuel wants doctors to look beyond the needs of their patients and consider social justice, such as whether the money could be better spent on somebody else.
Many doctors are horrified by this notion; they'll tell you that a doctor's job is to achieve social justice one patient at a time.

Emanuel, however, believes that "communitarianism" should guide decisions on who gets care. He says medical care should be reserved for the non-disabled, not given to those "who are irreversibly prevented from being or becoming participating citizens . . . An obvious example is not guaranteeing health services to patients with dementia" (Hastings Center Report, Nov.-Dec. '96).

Translation: Don't give much care to a grandmother with Parkinson's or a child with cerebral palsy.

He explicitly defends discrimination against older patients: "Unlike allocation by sex or race, allocation by age is not invidious discrimination; every person lives through different life stages rather than being a single age. Even if 25-year-olds receive priority over 65-year-olds, everyone who is 65 years now was previously 25 years" (Lancet, Jan. 31).

Since Medicare was founded in 1965, seniors' lives have been transformed by new medical treatments such as angioplasty, bypass surgery and hip and knee replacements. These innovations allow the elderly to lead active lives. But Emanuel criticizes Americans for being too "enamored with technology" and is determined to reduce access to it.

Dr. David Blumenthal, another key Obama adviser, agrees. He recommends slowing medical innovation to control health spending.

www.nypost.com...]

So it will be anyone who gets dementia. or is disabled as they will take over sales of wheelchairs even, reduction of mental health services, so will those people even survive or be 'assisted'?. God help you if you have a disabled child (restrictions on special needs) or even need dialysis. God help you if you get a serious illness that needs specialised drugs or even go to marriage counselling.
The government can dictate that your mother or grandmother will be killed upon governmental order, that is unless she hasn't already 'agreed' in the mandated end of life ‘counselling’ to 'assisted suicide'. Even if you need a hip replacement it will be rationed and as you will be above the prime years by then you will be in great pain.

If you don't think this is the EVIL machinations of demented men then I wonder what would fall into that category?
This is exactly how the Nazi’s started before they became more obvious.

The divorced father of three daughters age 18, 22 and 25, Dr. Emanuel has an unusual lifestyle.

“I don’t have a car, don’t have a TV, don’t have a house,” he said. “I do, however, have four cellphones, so go figure.”

www.nytimes.com...

Exactly, so from a man ruled by his head, dissociated from normal life and normal emotion. It is people like this in my view who are of no use to the society they wish to expunge the less than physically fit from. So no it is not scare tactics, and the Hippocratic oath will be no more. This is scary stuff indeed.
These people have no feelings even for their own families. This is eugenics plain and simple.

End-of-life services = Death Panel????

You really only understand what you WANT to understand..
End-of-life services are things like "palitative care":

Palliative care (from Latin palliare, to cloak) is any form of medical care or treatment that concentrates on reducing the severity of disease symptoms, rather than striving to halt, delay, or reverse progression of the disease itself or provide a cure. The goal is to prevent and relieve suffering and to improve quality of life for people facing serious, complex illness. Non-hospice palliative care is not dependent on prognosis and is offered in conjunction with curative and all other appropriate forms of medical treatment. It should not be confused with hospice care which delivers palliative care to those at the end of life. In the UK, this distinction is not operative; hospices and non-hospice-based palliative care teams both provide care to those with life limiting illness at any stage of their disease.

en.wikipedia.org...

It does not mean eutanasia! Its for people that have an incurable and suffering disease like cancer! For they can have a less suffering, better end of life!

Really guys, deny ignorance.. Argue what you want about higher taxes and such.. But this??? Thats being ignorant!

Is it possible that the entire death panel thing is misunderstood?
Palin is an idiot by the way

Originally posted by Picao84

End-of-life services = Death Panel????

You really only understand what you WANT to understand..
End-of-life services are things like "palitative care":

Palliative care (from Latin palliare, to cloak) is any form of medical care or treatment that concentrates on reducing the severity of disease symptoms, rather than striving to halt, delay, or reverse progression of the disease itself or provide a cure. The goal is to prevent and relieve suffering and to improve quality of life for people facing serious, complex illness. Non-hospice palliative care is not dependent on prognosis and is offered in conjunction with curative and all other appropriate forms of medical treatment. It should not be confused with hospice care which delivers palliative care to those at the end of life. In the UK, this distinction is not operative; hospices and non-hospice-based palliative care teams both provide care to those with life limiting illness at any stage of their disease.

en.wikipedia.org...

It does not mean eutanasia! Its for people that have an incurable and suffering disease like cancer! For they can have a less suffering, better end of life!

Really guys, deny ignorance.. Argue what you want about higher taxes and such.. But this??? Thats being ignorant!

Did you read your own defintion?

It should not be confused with hospice care which delivers palliative care to those at the end of life.

reply to post by ModernAcademia


olbermann is a bigger one - is he supposed to be some sort of expert?

expert - definition: 'X' an unkown quantity.
spurt - a drip under pressure.

reply to post by ModernAcademia


he makes some excellent points about it being like shouting fire in a crowded theater and then goes on to do the same thing himself by posting pics of those poor people that were hanged, as if to suggest anyone who disagrees with the health care thing is somehow willing to hang people. this is getting out of hand! he just proved it both in her case and his own.

Originally posted by Highground

Originally posted by Picao84

End-of-life services = Death Panel????

You really only understand what you WANT to understand..
End-of-life services are things like "palitative care":

Palliative care (from Latin palliare, to cloak) is any form of medical care or treatment that concentrates on reducing the severity of disease symptoms, rather than striving to halt, delay, or reverse progression of the disease itself or provide a cure. The goal is to prevent and relieve suffering and to improve quality of life for people facing serious, complex illness. Non-hospice palliative care is not dependent on prognosis and is offered in conjunction with curative and all other appropriate forms of medical treatment. It should not be confused with hospice care which delivers palliative care to those at the end of life. In the UK, this distinction is not operative; hospices and non-hospice-based palliative care teams both provide care to those with life limiting illness at any stage of their disease.

en.wikipedia.org...

It does not mean eutanasia! Its for people that have an incurable and suffering disease like cancer! For they can have a less suffering, better end of life!

Really guys, deny ignorance.. Argue what you want about higher taxes and such.. But this??? Thats being ignorant!

Did you read your own defintion?

It should not be confused with hospice care which delivers palliative care to those at the end of life.

It was you that did not pay attention:

Non-hospice palliative care is not dependent on prognosis and is offered in conjunction with curative and all other appropriate forms of medical treatment.

Non-hospice palliative care means this services are not only provided on end-of-life situtations.. They can be provided even if the patient can live, to reduce their suffering!



[edit on 11-8-2009 by Picao84]

Originally posted by poedxsoldiervet

Originally posted by 4nsicphd

Originally posted by undo
reply to post by 4nsicphd

 

admissions into VA facilities are being reduced by 25,000 per year.

I am going to call BS on your story.... You have some proof to back up any of these wild allegations about the budget cuts and VA losing 22,000 jobs since 1994 which I may add was under a Dem President. Got some proof to back that up?

I am also going to call BS on Primary Care Docs leaving en Masse from the VA. Being that I am an H.R person, We have plenty of pysicains. And must get paid 200,000 a year. Which is small potatoes considering what some other docs in NON-VA postions make. Also Alot of these docs are able to get huge bonus to make up for not making what NON-VA docs get as well as able to work at other hospitals or there own Private Practices which many of them have.

And really if you think about it, what you have mentioned can and will be whats avaible for all of you on a goverment health Insurance plan. Think about it really think about it.

All the wait time you have been waiting for to get VA treatment, your going to wait even longer when 300Million Americans get goverment health care.

Look at The Federal Times, November 17, 1997, page 10
clinicalfreedom.org...

Originally posted by Hastobemoretolife
I'm not agreeing with what Palin said, because the bill does not say anything about a "death board", but I will label this article "misleading".

As somebody that has read this bill, I would like to point out that this article completely forgets to mention the fact that the Health and Human Services Secretary will appoint a panel that will decide what treatments should be administered. The HHS Secretary also has the power to either approve or deny I a request for treatment that has not been approved, and there is no judicial review for the decision that the Secretary makes.

The panel that they are talking about does exist, but they neglected the part about the panel that will be appointed by the HHS Secretary that will decide which treatments shall be administered.

Provided this is true, please explain how any of this is different or worse than a private insurer who does the exact same thing right now. Insurance companies profit by refusing to pay out on claims.

The doctor will determine which treatments will be administered. Doctors now don't ask insurance companies every time they do every routine test. That's not gong to change. There may be questions if an experimental procedure is performed but those same questions are not asked by a private insurer. You can't condemn the government option by criticizing things that are currently done by private insurers routinely. That would be absurd.


[edit on 11-8-2009 by andrewh7]