Palin 'death panel' claim sets Truth-O-Meter ablaze

Originally posted by poedxsoldiervet
reply to post by HunkaHunka

 

A question is politco an Obama outlet or a true middle of the road paper?

I think you mean PolitiFact?

Judge for yourself, here is Obama's page.

And Obama's Campaign Promises Page. Notice that this one is listed on the main menu bar, and there are various breakdowns you can use to track them. And there is also a 'Flip-o-meter' that tracks when people have changed their minds on topics.

And Nancy Pelosi

And John McCain

And Newt Gingrich

And Sarah Palin

So there are plenty of starting places, for you to judge. Are the people and issues being treated fairly?

reply to post by milesp


And the government will make these decisions based on what exactly? We don't know. We do know that under the current plan that health care will be rationed out and that the elderly and severely afflicted may be left out to dry based on criteria that we have not been made aware of. We know the motivation of insurance companies is to turn a profit, but what is the governments motivation?

One thing no one in this debate is making a stink about is the amount of debt we're in. We cannot sustain this system, or any system under the current conditions without paying down our debts.

As far as rationing goes, it isn't a matter of policy, but a matter of available doctors to put this plan in place. Rationing will happen, and it will be a priority basis. We've already seen this in other systems. This is why we need to come up with our own.

I'm actually not against socialized medicine in its entirety, but there are kinks even in this system that will have people fall through rather large cracks.

[edit on 10-8-2009 by projectvxn]

Originally posted by Hastobemoretolife
reply to post by weedwhacker

 

Exactly there is a panel, but it is general there is nothing in there that states they are going to euthanize old people or ration care, but the language is so vague that potential for them to ration care will be there.

It's not just "a panel," but 54 panels in addition to the already bloated federal bureaucracy overseeing health care. Not to mention those that govern/control finance, immigration and taxation; all of which are involved explicitly or implicitly in the bill.

This Bill is only an outline of the general nature of the Health Care Plan. The specifics will be worked out by Federal agencies.

Why does this matter?
(I do not care which party is in office. I do care if a bureaucrat makes decisions that I want to make myself.)

The Bill, like all legislation, is subject to public scrutiny and open debate in Congress. We are seeing the initial stages of that here on ATS and in the 'town hall meetings' so much discussed in the MSM.

The actual implementation of the Bill will be from executive/administrative agencies (read: political/ Obama appointees) and NOT subject to public debate.

Typically, AAs publish proposed "Rules" and "Rule Making" in the CCH or administrative publications for "public comment." There are NO HEARINGS. There is no Administrative review or even a requirement that 'comments' be acted upon. After a set period of time, usually 90 to 180 days, the "Rules" become law.

The real danger is what the non-publicly-accountable AAs do to "implement" these broad changes. Remember how the EPA, and DoE came up with the "5 Gases" regs that will embody Obama's "climate change" agenda?

Congress doesn't have to do ANYTHING else! The Administrative Agencies will do the heavy lifting once they have enabled them through this legislation!

If the Feds can't appropriately monitor and police the fraud-ridden Medicare and Medicaid programs (serving far fewer 'constituents'), what do you expect to come of a program that is exponentially larger and, in fact, ENCOMPASSES these two bankrupt licenses to steal?

What about States Rights and the 10th and 11th amendments? Welfare Reform was initiated under individually-tailored STATE programs, then "federalized" to adopt the best of the best plans.

State-run medical benefits programs (remember the previous question about 'Health Insurance Exchange' programs) are being swept out of the picture when they are best positioned to assess needs and deliver resources to their residents. A federal bureaucracy is no "solution" to a problem best addressed through co-ordinated State efforts and re-direction of State tax payments to the people who need the money the most.

reply to post by CuriousSkeptic


The death panel visits grandma every 5 years. They are to 'advise' her of her choices. Some of those choices involve how to distribute her wealth upon her inevitable and probably hastened death. (no doubt to the governments benefit.)

The law specifically allows the panel to withhold information about life saving treatments if it is deemed legal by their panel of bureaucrats and lawyers. It also mandates a level of standardized care (also chosen by bureaucrats and lawyers) that may or may not include life saving treatments for granny.

The possibilities for euthanasia are endless here. Care can be denied rationed and even hidden from the undesireables at will. I see this as the real intent of this law. You start to get a feel for it once you see how evil it is. It reflects the feelings of it's bio-ethically challenged authors from the Hastings institute who, even now, are advocating Hitlerian-like eugenics.

reply to post by SevenThunders


More fear. Why is there so much of this?

Is it because they want to generate enough fear to make everyone forget how the racket of healthcare currently 0wns them?


Evidently the fear mongers of the world didn't learn when their tactics lost the election.

Originally posted by weedwhacker
reply to post by jdub297

 

I think you've found one of the cherry-picked "talking points" designed to instill the exact "fear" that is causing you angst.

Read again. The patient/family have the right to request the advice, and the provisions simply dictate that IF they opt for the advice, it will be free of charge.

Nope. You haven't read this have you? Or are you just intentionally deceptive?

Section 1233 is not a "talking point," it will become the LAW.

Doctors SHALL initiate the discussion. DOCTORS can draw up the LEGAL documents to end life. Doctors are PAID to perform these "services."

This is not patient/family "choice."

If we are "free to choose," why even mention it in a LAW that will be implemented by agencies and providers with a financial incentive to perform these "services."

It MUST be performed, and re-performed, regardless of the patient/family, by all doctors accepting Medicare patients. They are given money to do this.

That's why it is called an 'end of life MANDATE."

Read the bill. Section 1233. The section is not a "talking point." It will become LAW.

My only "fear" and "angst" present themselves when people state falsehoods as fact when the truth is before them. And when they expect me and others to act on or be bound by such.

Read the bill.
Deny ignorance!
jw

Originally posted by HunkaHunka
reply to post by SevenThunders

 

More fear. Why is there so much of this?

It is because of people who refuse to inform themselves of facts when they are easily accessible.

You haven't read the bill, have you?

If you don't understand it, have a grownup explain it to you.

Deny Ignorance!

jw

reply to post by HunkaHunka


I don't disagree with anything you said. Although I could see them splintering in to many directions. Leaving a solid Democratic party to vote for. Which would lead to one party rule for a while. Some people would probably enjoy this, lol. I would prefer to have some different view points in power positions. As it stands now we really don't. This is another thread though.

Sorry about going a bit off the topic of The Death Panel.

reply to post by jdub297

If we are "free to choose," why even mention it in a LAW that will be implemented by agencies and providers with a financial incentive to perform these "services."

It MUST be performed, and re-performed, regardless of the patient/family, by all doctors accepting Medicare patients. They are given money to do this.

No, you are being told this, and whoever is saying it is trying to twist your mind.

Physicians can earn far, far more money than sitting and "consulting" for 30 minutes with people. THAT'S how lawyers "earn" their outrageous fees.

Doctors, having an "incentive" to ensure a patient's death???

Nope, this is a scare tactic, that is preying on people who fall for it.

Not only does it make MORE sense, "financially", to keep the patient alive, it is the MANDATE that every physician swears by. I'm sure you've heard of the Hippocratic Oath.

Deny Ignorance ( AND manipulation ).

reply to post by jdub297


What you are talking about is one of the other main problems I have with this bill when I read it, there is so much in it, it's hard to remember it all.

This bill give unprecedented power to the HHS Secretary, CDC, and all the other agencies that will be set up under this. Our treatments will be totally politicized. Anybody can file those comments your were talking about earlier, but is it really that far out of a thought to think that certain comments will get enforced because of who they are connected with?

That is the way it works now, I don't know why this wouldn't be any different. There are lots of stuff in this bill that is horrendous. What you pointed out though is definitely one of the most important though.

When ever a bill has "this "XXX" shall not be subject to any judicial review" should throw up a huge red flag to anybody.

Originally posted by jdub297

Originally posted by HunkaHunka
reply to post by SevenThunders

 

More fear. Why is there so much of this?

It is because of people who refuse to inform themselves of facts when they are easily accessible.

You haven't read the bill, have you?

If you don't understand it, have a grownup explain it to you.

Deny Ignorance!

jw

Excuse me? I have a read a good portion of the bill. Specifically the parts folks have been spreading lies about.

Grown up? do I really look that young in my avatar? I'm 37!

Maybe that's why I still get carded.

Originally posted by jdub297

Originally posted by HunkaHunka
reply to post by SevenThunders

 

More fear. Why is there so much of this?

It is because of people who refuse to inform themselves of facts when they are easily accessible.

You haven't read the bill, have you?

If you don't understand it, have a grownup explain it to you.

Deny Ignorance!

jw

Have you read the bill? Could you please explain to us how senior citizen murders will be carried out?

Just watch this -

If I were Palin I would be more concerned about all those investigations into her and her cronies activities while she was governor.

In Vino Veritas.
On page 7?? (it's in my notes, read the different bills yourself and get your own migraine).
The nurse practicioner will come by your house to discuss birth spread according to your income and school preperation. That appears to state if you can't really afford the baby you have growing inside you should give it up one way or another (abortion). Oh wait, a fetus does not count to some of you and others think it should be ok if it keeps the poor from spreading. (I tried to say it nicely OP). RTFM (of course there are 2 in the lead in the House & only 1 in the Senate so you can skip the other 2 if you want.

Us old folks forget sometimes
How do you tell if a politician is lying. HIS LIPS ARE MOVING!!!
BOTH SIDES ARE POLITICIANS!! RTFM

Originally posted by sweatmonicaIdo
reply to post by weedwhacker

 

AND, this is different from the FOR-PROFIT Health Insurance Companies denying needed medical care and dropping patients rather than paying claims.....this is different how, again???

Applause, applause!!! Finally, somebody showed the depravity of the entire discourse.

Basically, those who oppose universal health care are okay with the same supposed "evils" of the bill, as long as its the free market doing the dirty deed. Talk about hypocracy, immorality and depravity of the highest (or lowest, depending on how you choose to define "high" and "low") order.

We need to stop acting like the free market is God and the government is the anti-God. Any system that relies completely on one kind of system is destined for failure.

You and the other supporters of obamacare also need to understand that while reform is needed, a bad healthcare bill is NOT better than no healthcare bill, it is worse.

And even if the obamacare bill in congress does not use the specific words "death panel", thinking people that have read the bill do understand that section 1233 is on the slippery slope to the same thing. Look what the UK is talking about doing - withholding painkillers from senior citizens because they are "too expensive". Again, thinking people see it as not much of a leap to think of the same thing happening here under obamacare. "Sliding further down the slope", how many people in agony due to withheld pain medicine do any of you think would suddenly be much more receptive to their government paid doctors suggestions about "dying with dignity"?

So, a "death panel" can take several forms. Perhaps there isn't one (yet) to directly decide who lives or dies, but there easily could be one who's decisions could directly impact who wants to live or die. From the individual patient's perspective, it would be hard to tell the difference.



[edit on 8/11/2009 by centurion1211]

Baby born in USA, there were some complications.. parent's bill came to 1.5million US dollars

Baby born in New Zealand, there were some complications.. parent's bill came to 0

Has anyone against reform stopped to think some of the other countries out there have got it right? Or are Americans so stubborn they'd cut off their nose to spite their face? I'm guessing it's the latter. To admit a bunch of commie socialists know how to manage health care and America should follow their lead.. BLASPHEMY!!

reply to post by centurion1211


I see.. so you prefer the insurance companies make the decision. As in the other day when they held off paying for a little girls operation. They waited until near death, then approved the op but it was too late.

Originally posted by contemplator
reply to post by centurion1211

 

I see.. so you prefer the insurance companies make the decision. As in the other day when they held off paying for a little girls operation. They waited until near death, then approved the op but it was too late.

No, I don't think you do see. BTW, exactly what is a "believer and skeptic"?

I see that you didn't even read (or understand) what I wrote.

Let me summarize in fewer words to try and help you understand.

1 - Reform is needed, but a bad bill (that congress hasn't even read) is worse than no bill.

2 - There are provisions in the bill(s) being considered that could lead to an actual or defacto "death panel", even if those words aren't actually used in the bill(s).

[edit on 8/11/2009 by centurion1211]