I Would Side With the Serpent

Originally posted by JayinAR
As I told the other one, you don't have free will.
Yes, you may FEEL as if you have the choice to jump off that cliff, but you only did so in accordance with God's plan.....

Maybe I'm demanding, but if you can't understand this, there isn't much for us to talk about.

its not hard to understand, its illogical.

how can a god who is just (who instilled us with a sense of justice btw) and who is love condemn someone for breaking a commandment that according to you, they were destined to break?

makes for irrational thinking

reply to post by miriam0566


Yeah, the whole story is pretty irrational.
Hence the premise of the thread.

Originally posted by JayinAR
Yeah, the whole story is pretty irrational.
Hence the premise of the thread.

ok so you are basing your conclusion that this story is irrational on an assumption that free-will doesnt exist?

I know I am coming into this sort of late, and for that, I apologize.

Anyways, I pretty much completely agree with what you are saying, and have too felt the same way even since I was a child.

For the purpose of theory, I'm just going to assume the bible as true for this.

If though god knows what will come of his creations, it is almost as if he created the Serpent to punish us in a way. I agree that the gift of knowledge is something I am so grateful for, but let's say god knew the serpent was going to give us knowledge, then he would have also known from the start that we were created to be banned from the garden.

Now humanity has been supposedly tricked and banned from the garden of eden, but god may have knew this would happen. So what then, he creates Hell and unleashes a book upon the world to scare a large majority of humanity. It would be almost as if he were using the tactics some governments use, scare your citizens into obeying.

It's very much a double edged sword with no good way for it to have happened. If he knew what the serpent would do, and knew he would have to create Hell and punish us, then he would almost have had it planned from the start.

However, let's say his ability to be "all knowing" didn't somehow reach around the serpent, and he didn't see it coming. Then you are right and god would have been trying to withhold us from freedom.

The one question I really have is let's say if the serpent won the fight, many Christians assume everyone would be cast into Hell. But wasn't Hell created as a punishment by God? What would the serpent have created if he won the battle? Would we basically be getting knowledge like he wanted, plus a different flavor of heaven, or perhaps even just life on earth forever?

And going with that last question, if that is so, he may have won and we may just be on earth for the rest of our existence. We will just never know.

I know it was a long post but I am pretty much agreeing with you completely, and saying that any way it could have happened, it doesn't seem good.

reply to post by Our Lord And Master


Precisely . From a logical standpoint there is absolutely no way around this.

I was wondering if the thread would ever even follow me to this. Unfortunately most of the time has been spent arguing other aspects of the theology of the Bible.

While interesting, it all still misses the point.
YOU HAVE NO FREE WILL. You CANNOT.

That's right, Christers. The Calvinists are correct.

reply to post by JayinAR


Yeah. There is one evil if he knew what would happen, and another evil if he didn't.

I also wondered when I was younger about the whole fruit from the tree of knowledge thing. God saying that we would become like him after eating it, which we didn't. This puts god in a lie. Either that or I wonder, was the entire fruit eaten, or just a bite each? Maybe even greater knowledge would be achieved had more been consumed.

That is of course, if humanity actually did start off as two people in a magical garden.

I just don't understand why if god is benevolent, humanity couldn't be created both with knowledge and freewill, yet the approval of the creator.

Then as some people say siding with the serpent is going against Gods Law, but blind following is not the way to follow any ruler. I will not follow any law if the law is tyranny, and having to live in set standards, without freewill, is tyranny.

I must say, I just joined today and your argument/discussion is the best I've read yet.

reply to post by Our Lord And Master


Well, I appreciate the kind words.
On the thought of the fruit itself and becoming like God, though. I would ask why you think we are NOT like God?

What is "God" to us? Well, he is our creator.
Other than that, we know NOTHING of him other than he dictated to us what we shall do and what we shan't.

This isn't the stuff of religion, it is the stuff of legislature.
Any Buddhist would say the same.

And you said it yourself. The entire Bible reads like the US Tax code. Sure, it mixes in nice stories, but from a purely philisophical standpoint it certainly leaves one questioning.

Perhaps we are JUST LIKE "God" in the fact that we have the KNOWLEDGE to create or own projects. Cloning and the like... And those "angels" from the Heavens weren't supernatural at all.
Perhaps just travellers.

Afterall, this is basically what is said of them.


[edit on 26-8-2009 by JayinAR]

reply to post by JayinAR


Very good point. Well I see the god from these stories as being able to be all knowing, and while we have similarities such as the ability to create and give and take away life now, I don't think we are there yet.

However, we may very well get there if we keep growing intellectually. I just meant that Adam and Eve didn't bite the fruit and immediately be able to be just like god. I read like god as the ability to know what will be the outcome of everything, being all knowing, and the ability to create basically from thought, not from with tools.

I may very well be incorrect though. I mean our minds have greatly increased since the days of biblical times, so we may someday be like god.

I just see eating the fruit may have given us potential to be like him, but it didn't immediately spring their minds forward to where ours may be at in a few thousand more years. If I made any sense at all this late, it's a miracle.

reply to post by Our Lord And Master


Nah, you make perfect sense.
I just wonder about the specifics.
I think the entire account is allegorical. Obviously there isn't some magical fruit somewhere that gives anyone God-like knowledge. I feel like this knowledge that was given was more or less the building blocks for civilized life. Rather than living like a beast.

The knowledge of surveying (measuring land), construction, math, governance, ASTONOMY, etc.
Now of course, Adam and Eve would have went out and built the Sistine Chapel after talking to the Serpent, nor even the Ark.
These things take plenty of time.
But the knowledge that makes man god-like is the ability to become civilized and pass knowledge through non-genetic means vs. simply living like an ape and never advancing as a species...

This is what also makes us uniquely Human and appear to have a "soul" against other beasts, who are inferior.

Superiority/inferiority... Godlike/Beast

reply to post by JayinAR


Yeah. The entire fruit/tree and christian genesis theory is all rather far fetched. It was all just for the sake of the theory on who to side with.

I see what you mean now. I just read "be like god" differently. My apologies.

reply to post by Our Lord And Master


No need to apologize!

I was just giving my take on what I think it COULD POSSIBLY be interpreted as and still retain any sort of logic. I'm sure there are lots of ways to interpret it!

So you are siding with the Devil because you arent impressed by God?
You are afraid of being a 'slave of God' (Good) you rather be a slave of the Serpent (Evil)?
Humans will always be slaves on Earth, nomatter how you look at it we are pretty pathetic and not driven by free will but by necessities and emotions.
By refusing God, you are basically saying that you are going to follow your own path even if it means doing the Evil things. And you believe you are above God and know better what's good for you and others.

Obviously you do not believe in the afterlife, if you did know what is beyond this puny life on earth, trust me you'd do what it takes to book your place in 'heavens' and not be desperate for it to be the way you like it.

And this is coming from a hardcore atheist, after some life changing events and a near death I now believe and understand. I really do feel sorry for those who live the selfish or evil path.

Originally posted by TheOracle
By refusing God, you are basically saying that you are going to follow your own path even if it means doing the Evil things. And you believe you are above God and know better what's good for you and others.

that is exactly what he is doing. that is exactly what adam did.

taking the fruit didnt bestow any new "knowledge" other than the fact that man would decide for himself what is right and wrong.

theres this romanticism that comes with the gnostic way of thinking. man has become like the gods... this forbidden knowledge that is unlocked... it all inspires us to think more of what is.

want independence from god? you got it. god gave it to you. THATS FREE WILL. its a decision you make.

want proof its free will? everyone on this earth will face the consequences of their decisions.

heres the point...

a just god who loves his creation would not make them deal with consequences of decisions they were destined to make.

genesis 2:[16] And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat:
[17] But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

- why would god even bother commanding the man not to eat if it was destined that he would eat it?

- why would god give him such a harsh consequence for something he is making the man do?!

your getting hung up of god being omniscient. but knowing something doesnt make it destined and it doesnt put the responsibility in god's lap.

reply to post by miriam0566


Hello Miriam

The ways of God are impenetrable indeed. So impenetrable we don't really know the extent of Its power. Free Will may well be something beyond Its control, It may have given us flesh and soul but are we really masters or slaves of our decisions?
Some are bound to do good things, other bad things and everyone a bit of both. I think in the end, It will judge our overall performance during our brief lives.
In Life there are always consequences for good and bad. If you take care of a tree, it will grow and you may reap its tasty rewards - if you destroy the tree, you wont get any reward but you are also endangering the environment and yourself in many ways. When we are being good to each others, no matter how much it is difficult for you, then you are working towards bettering the human race and the planet. We are a very long way from giving up all our sins, but every little counts.
There are omniscient powers beyond our grasp, I know it because I have seen it. I had the chance to even communicate and understand better our place in the universe and that is the best thing that has ever happened to me.

Originally posted by TheOracle
So you are siding with the Devil because you arent impressed by God?
You are afraid of being a 'slave of God' (Good) you rather be a slave of the Serpent (Evil)?

I hope you read the whole thread. We've covered issues where people just automatically accuse the Serpent to be evil, even though the bible doesn't say such. That is more or less peer pressure for you to think that.

There would be a lot more peace in this world if people learned not to bare false witness.

Originally posted by dzonatas
I hope you read the whole thread. We've covered issues where people just automatically accuse the Serpent to be evil, even though the bible doesn't say such. That is more or less peer pressure for you to think that.

it does say such... logic really

- the serpent is telling eve a lie. "thou shal not die"

- god doesnt lie
num 23:[19] God is not a man, that he should lie;

- adam and eve died (whatdoyouknow, god didnt lie)

- satan (which literally means "adversary") is a liar. lying is evil.

lev 6:[2] If a soul sin, and commit a trespass against the LORD, and lie unto his neighbour in that which was delivered him to keep, or in fellowship, or in a thing taken away by violence, or hath deceived his neighbour;
[3] Or have found that which was lost, and lieth concerning it, and sweareth falsely; in any of all these that a man doeth, sinning therein:

so who's bearing false witness?

isa 5:[20] Woe unto them that call evil good, and good evil; that put darkness for light, and light for darkness; that put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter!
[21] Woe unto them that are wise in their own eyes, and prudent in their own sight!

reply to post by dzonatas

 

I hope you read the whole thread. We've covered issues where people just automatically accuse the Serpent to be evil, even though the bible doesn't say such. That is more or less peer pressure for you to think that.

There would be a lot more peace in this world if people learned not to bare false witness.

Ok. You have made this point a few times. May I ask you a question: How does the Bible define "evil"? In order to establish whether the Bible says something/one is or isn't evil, would require such a definition to be firmly grasped.

I look forward to reading your response. I'm sure it will be a doozy.

reply to post by Our Lord And Master

 

Yeah. The entire fruit/tree and christian genesis theory is all rather far fetched. It was all just for the sake of the theory on who to side with.

Although I detect a note of sarcasm in your last sentence, this is the point. As I have stated in earlier posts, the point is not one of there being a tree that was intended to endue people with knowledge, but who we will entrust our learning of morality to. I am reminded of the Simpson's episode when the "Inanimate Carbon Rod" gets awarded the employee of the month, instead of Homer. Adam and Eve decided that an "inanimate tree" was a more reliable source of knowledge than the "Author of the universe", who they had free access to.

It is not tyranny to state the obvious, and assign consequences for wrong actions. Responsible leaders would do all they could to ensure the safety of others. A tyrant would seek to do so by removing the free will of his subjects. The difference between a warning and a threat, is that with threats, the intensity of the penalty is increased, until the point when choice becomes impossible. Tyrants seek two modes of control. First they deceive, and if that doesn't work, they threaten.

In contrast, a benevolent leader would be firm, but patient. The emphasis would not be on the control of his subjects, but on their mutual benefit. He would be firm, but fair; just but merciful. Like any fair law (you have to admit that there are some), his statutes would merely legislate common sense, in order to protect the "sensible" from the "selfishly dangerous".

When we throw divinity into the mix, we have someone who is ultimately able to enslave his subjects (if he were a tyrant), and ultimately able to have a firm grasp of all the subtle implications attached to every moral decision (if benevolent). If God's goal was tyranny, a quick look at the atrocities of the world will show that He is a dismal failure at it (perhaps He could take some lessons from the US government).

As a parent (and I would like to say a "benevolent" one), I often find myself in a position where I have to say, "How about you just do it, and I'll explain it later." Say, in situations like when the kids wanted to race each other to the car, when the car is on the other side of a busy street, or when they decided to paint a lovely mural...on the the wall of the hotel we were staying in, for example.

Sometimes when the explanations come, I don't go into too much detail, like when I had to explain to my five year old daughter, the importance of being careful where she puts here hands, when hugging people. All she needed to know was that there are some grown ups who could trick her into doing "bad things that she wouldn't like", instead of asking her not to. She didn't need to know what kind of "bad things" they could do. My goal was to protect her, not to traumatise her. The tragic thing about such a "rule" being imposed, is that my child could be the one suffer as a result of the disobedience.

The further extension is the fact that most (if not all) pedophiles start of as victims, and for many the activity evolves into an addiction that they wish they could stop, but can't. In other words, a child's disobedience, could result in many future victims. Suddenly a rule about inappropriate touching, albeit done in innocence, becomes one of utmost seriousness from the position of having "greater knowledge", toward the one who is not quite ready to have such knowledge. As my daughter's maturity increases, she is entrusted with more knowledge, because she has demonstrated that she can handle it.

Contrast that with a another, who simply throws pornographic literature at my daughter, or worse yet, demonstrates sexual activity "with" her, before she is old enough to be able to handle it, and who would you say is the "tyrant" and the "benevolent leader"?

Originally posted by miriam0566
it does say such... logic really

By logic? You mean you can't find it said directly within the bible by exact quote?

k... let's analyze by logic...

- the serpent is telling eve a lie. "thou shal not die"

If whatever is beyond the mortal body does not die, then the the serpent didn't lie. However, you said serpent and not "satan."

Your fingernails are dead.

- god doesnt lie
num 23:[19] God is not a man, that he should lie;

huh?

- adam and eve died (whatdoyouknow, god didnt lie)

Are you sure they didn't ascend? Where is the bible quote and not your 'peer pressure' interpretation?

- satan (which literally means "adversary") is a liar. lying is evil.

So the bible lies to tell everybody that there is a being called "Satan" when really it means just anybody who is your adversary... that is quite a lie!

lev 6:[2] If a soul sin, and commit a trespass against the LORD, and lie unto his neighbour in that which was delivered him to keep, or in fellowship, or in a thing taken away by violence, or hath deceived his neighbour;
[3] Or have found that which was lost, and lieth concerning it, and sweareth falsely; in any of all these that a man doeth, sinning therein:

isa 5:[20] Woe unto them that call evil good, and good evil; that put darkness for light, and light for darkness; that put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter!
[21] Woe unto them that are wise in their own eyes, and prudent in their own sight!

Those quotes don't say the name "satan" or "serpent"



[edit on 28-8-2009 by dzonatas]

Originally posted by dzonatas
By logic? You mean you can't find it said directly within the bible by exact quote?

actually it is. the book of revelations identifies satan as the serpent

rev 12:[9] And the great dragon was thrown down, the serpent of old who is called the devil and Satan, who deceives the whole world; he was thrown down to the earth, and his angels were thrown down with him.

also states that satan would be destroyed

rev 20:[10] And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

not hell... destroyed

[14] And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
[15] And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

tough luck for a guy who is supposedly working for god uh?

even the apostles used "serpent" interchangeable with satan

2 corinthians 11:3 But I am afraid that, as the serpent deceived Eve by his craftiness, your minds will be led astray from the simplicity and purity of devotion to Christ.

there is more evidence to say that satan is the serpent than there is to suggest he isnt.

john 8:44 "You are of your father the devil, and you want to do the desires of your father. He was a murderer from the beginning (in eden), and does not stand in the truth because there is no truth in him. Whenever he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own nature, for he is a liar and the father of lies.

1 Timothy 2:14 And it was not Adam who was deceived, but the woman being deceived, fell into transgression.

eve was deceived not enlighted

- the serpent is telling eve a lie. "thou shal not die"

If whatever is beyond the mortal body does not die, then the the serpent didn't lie. However, you said serpent and not "satan."

Your fingernails are dead.

gen 2:[7] And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

adam BECAME a living soul. he didnt exist before that moment

gen 3:[19] In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.

adam did not exist before he was created. dust to dust says quite clearly that he returned to that nonexistent state.

ezekial 18:[20] The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.

adam sinned, and therefore he died.

sorry but no transcendence. the serpent (satan) lied.

- god doesnt lie
num 23:[19] God is not a man, that he should lie;

huh?

if the serpent wasnt lying, then you are implying that god did lie when he said "thou shalt surely die."

- adam and eve died (whatdoyouknow, god didnt lie)

Are you sure they didn't ascend? Where is the bible quote and not your 'peer pressure' interpretation?

eccl 9:[5] For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.
[10] Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do it with thy might; for there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave, whither thou goest.

psalms 146:[4] His breath goeth forth, he returneth to his earth; in that very day his thoughts perish.

1 cor 15:[22] For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

why do you keep going on about peer pressure?

- satan (which literally means "adversary") is a liar. lying is evil.

So the bible lies to tell everybody that there is a being called "Satan" when really it means just anybody who is your adversary... that is quite a lie!

umm no. its doesnt mean "anybody" who is an adversary.

satan is a title that means adversary. it means satan is not working for god as you seem to imply

lev 6:[2] If a soul sin, and commit a trespass against the LORD, and lie unto his neighbour in that which was delivered him to keep, or in fellowship, or in a thing taken away by violence, or hath deceived his neighbour;
[3] Or have found that which was lost, and lieth concerning it, and sweareth falsely; in any of all these that a man doeth, sinning therein:

isa 5:[20] Woe unto them that call evil good, and good evil; that put darkness for light, and light for darkness; that put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter!
[21] Woe unto them that are wise in their own eyes, and prudent in their own sight!

Those quotes don't say the name "satan" or "serpent"

they dont have to.

satan lied in the garden of eden. lying is a sin. logically then satan is not a tool of god.

isa 5:20 i cited for a different reason. its because people that go on about this theory of satan being good are doing exactly that. they call evil good