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reply to post by JayinAR
I have a question to ask of any believer. If God is all powerful why would he knowingly create a being that was going to eventually turn against him, deceive his creation into following him in his treason and eventually punish the people for buying into what was, for all intents and purposes, a 'Godly Mistake'?
Originally posted by DaisyAnne
Someone needs to read more.
Did you not notice their absence until the Book of Daniel?
Originally posted by CJaKfOrEsT
Free will carries with it the potential for evil. A failure to show consideration to others has the potential to be misread as cruelty, leading to hurt, leading to vengeance, leading to war, and worse. Evil tends to begin with a logic that says, "I know better. I will do it my way, regardless of what has been proven." The greater the evil, the greater the casting off of subordination, and the greater the rebellion.
The irony is that the "evil one" fails to see that in liberating himself of his "oppressor", he essentially becomes his own oppression; the cruelest task master of all, demanding his own desires be fulfilled. So the question is one of who we are subordinate to: a benevolent Master, who is capable of meeting our needs, and knows what they are, better than we do ourselves.
The pre-material creation of angelic beings, were fixed in their choices, leading to a permanent decision of being either "good" or "evil". The principle at work is that the greater the level of personal maturity, the greater the consistency of belief. God desired to have beings created in His own image, capable of choosing between good and evil. He chose to take the route of creating them into a "Father/child" relationship, in regard to subordination. The idea being they would learn of Him, and He would provide for them.
He created a temporal reality for His "children" to exist in, which is where Genesis 1 picks up. In allowing the angelic beings access to man, He provided them with the means of making an educated choice, allowing the possibility exposure to good and evil, without the permanency of an eternal nature. In the garden He placed two tress, which I believe were literal, but represented something symbolic - Moral Choices, and Eternal Life; neither to be taken for a "tree", but given by God. Interestingly, it would appear that one tree was attractive enough, for the other to be ignored.
Ultimately, the choice was between the advice of two beings: God, and an evil angelic being (finite and the Infinite), in the form of a serpent.
Originally posted by DaisyAnne
The quotes you have used mention angels, malakhey elohim: These are simply messengers without names.
Again, I refer you to the Talmud, where it clearly states that the names of the angels were taken from Babylon.
As for Jacob in the desert, surely you remember that he claimed to have wrestled God himself?
I know you would prefer to think that my disagreement with you, my adherence to scholarly facts, must be based on ignorance. But, I think you'll find it is based on research, facts, and insight.
Excerpt from Robert Graves book, The White Goddess (Farrar, Straus and Giroux 1948) "The Essenes invoked angels in their mysteries. Here is something odd: that the "Hounds of Herne the Hunter', or the 'Dogs of Annwm', which hunt souls across the sky are, in British folklore, also called 'Gabriel ratches' or 'Gabriel hounds'. Why Gabriel? Was it because Gabriel, whose day was Monday, ran errands for Sheol (the Hebrew Hecate) and was sent to summon souls to Judgment? This was Hermes's task, and Herne, a British oak-god whose memory survived in Windsor Forest until the eighteenth century, is generally identified with Hermes. Gabriel and Herne are equated in the early thirteenth-century carvings around the church door at Stoke Gabriel in South Devon. The angel Gabriel looks down from above, but on the right as one enters are carved the wild hunter, his teeth bared in a grin and a wisp of hair over his face, and a brace of his hounds close by. But Hermes in Egypt, though Thoth in one aspect, in another was the dog-headed god Anubis, son of Nepthys, the Egyptian Hecate; so Apuleius pictures him in the pageant at the end of The Golden Ass as 'his face sometimes black, sometimes fair, lifting up the head of the Dog Anubis'. This makes the equation Gabriel=Herne=Hermes=Anubis. But was Gabriel ever equated with Anubis in ancient times? By a piece of good luck an Egyptian gem has been found showing Anubis with palm and pouch on the obverse, and on the reverse an arch-angel described as Gabriel Sabao, which means 'Gabriel Sabaoth', the Egyptians having, as usual, converted the l into an R. (This gem is described in de Haas's 'Bilderatlas.) then is 'Annwm', which is a contracted form of 'Annwfn', a Celtic version of 'Anubis'? The B of Anubis would naturally turn into an F in Welsh."
Originally posted by Blue_Jay33
reply to post by DaisyAnne
Nah you just got pwned by Miriam from her numerous quotes from the bible.
She knows the bible too well for you to try that one on her.
One thing people who want to post on ATS need to understand you aren't talking to your typical uneducated Joe/Jane in here.
The ATS forums have some of the most knowledgeable informed people posting on the net, you'll have to step your game up next time. Or don't post at all, when you don't understand the subject at hand.
"So went the present over before him: and himself lodged that night in the company. 22 And he rose up that night, and took his two wives, and his two womenservants, and his eleven sons, and passed over the ford Jabbok. 23 And he took them, and sent them over the brook, and sent over that he had. 24 And Jacob was left alone; and there wrestled a man with him until the breaking of the day. 25 And when he saw that he prevailed not against him, he touched the hollow of his thigh; and the hollow of Jacob's thigh was out of joint, as he wrestled with him. 26 And he said, Let me go, for the day breaketh. And he said, I will not let thee go, except thou bless me. 27 And he said unto him, What is thy name? And he said, Jacob. 28 And he said, Thy name shall be called no more Jacob, but Israel: for as a prince hast thou power with God and with men, and hast prevailed. 29 And Jacob asked him, and said, Tell me, I pray thee, thy name. And he said, Wherefore is it that thou dost ask after my name? And he blessed him there. 30 And Jacob called the name of the place Peniel: for I have seen God face to face, and my life is preserved. 31 And as he passed over Penuel the sun rose upon him, and he halted upon his thigh. 32 Therefore the children of Israel eat not of the sinew which shrank, which is upon the hollow of the thigh, unto this day: because he touched the hollow of Jacob's thigh in the sinew that shrank."
Originally posted by Joecroft
Interesting thread S+F
I thought I would play devils advocate here (no pun intended) and throw this question into the mix.
How did Adam and Eve commit the original sin, “fall of man” sin, if they had no knowledge (prior to eating the apple) of “good or evil”?
Nagas (serpents) are recognized as superior to humans. They inhabit subaquatic paradises, dwelling at the bottoms of rivers, lakes and seas. A most important function of these divine serpents is their function as guardians. We find them at the doors of Hindu and Buddhist shrines. They van not only frighten ordinary human intruders with their dangerous aspect as cobras, they can as divinities, discern and repel any divine invader.
Originally posted by Taskism
reply to post by JayinAR
It was the tree of knowledge of good and evil, not knowledge as a whole.
And believing in reptilians makes no more sense than believing in God. You've seen neither, sources of both existing are sketchy and include faith in something that has no evidence.
Find enlightenment and see where that takes you.
24God is a Spirit (a spiritual Being) and those who worship Him must worship Him in spirit and in truth (reality).
29Then Jacob asked Him, Tell me, I pray You, what [in contrast] is Your name? But He said, Why is it that you ask My name? And [the Angel of God declared] a blessing on [Jacob] there.
15 Then Manoah said to the angel of the Lord, “Please stay here until we can prepare a young goat for you to eat.”
16 “I will stay,” the angel of the Lord replied, “but I will not eat anything. However, you may prepare a burnt offering as a sacrifice to the Lord.” (Manoah didn’t realize it was the angel of the Lord.)
17 Then Manoah asked the angel of the Lord, “What is your name? For when all this comes true, we want to honor you.”
18 “Why do you ask my name?” the angel of the Lord replied. “It is too wonderful for you to understand.”
19 Then Manoah took a young goat and a grain offering and offered it on a rock as a sacrifice to the Lord. And as Manoah and his wife watched, the Lord did an amazing thing. 20 As the flames from the altar shot up toward the sky, the angel of the Lord ascended in the fire. When Manoah and his wife saw this, they fell with their faces to the ground. 21 The angel did not appear again to Manoah and his wife. Manoah finally realized it was the angel of the Lord
reply to post by dzonatas
Back on topic, thanks CJaKfOrEsT
Oops, you made that judgment of "evil"... not the bible.
If any fruit was eaten, the knowledge obviously was not inherited by you or anybody else that makes the same mistake to pass such judgment of evil that isn't even supported by the bible.
This is evidence, dear watson. *wink*