Satan vs Lucifer

reply to post by Shadowflux


I guess my point was to bring up the question about things like the flood, apocalyptic events and man being thrown out of the garden of Eden as punishment by an angry God. I feel it is possible that these events were naturally occurring and foreseen by Yahweh.

Personally I find all of this much more appealing as a record of our ancient history rather than a doomsday prophecy of a vengeful and frightening God. As I read some of the Gospel of Thomas I realize there exists an original bifurcation point for the teachings of Jesus, Christianity and/or Catholicism which brings up another question about the definition for 'Anti-Christ". Does it mean, Those who are against Christ and his teachings, or is it another term for 'Devil', 'Lucifer', and 'Satan'?

reply to post by Devino


You bring up a few good points which I have contemplated myself. I think there is a problem with justifying the difference in attitude between the OT God and the NT God if you try and go along accepted theological doctrine. I believe a lot of the answers are in the Apocrypha, some of which are lost to us as of right now (Book of Giants).

In the Book of Enoch we are told that the Moon should be our guiding light as the Sun can fool and confound us at times. This may be mentioning the Sun as a bad reference point due to it's constant change while the Moon follows a rather cyclic change. In addition, the Jewish calendar was a Lunar calendar.

However, there is more to it. In magical theory the Moon represents the hidden truth and comes up often in Qballah, Alchemy and Tarort (all of which are related). In addition, Hebrew is written without vowels, the vowels then represent the hidden Numerological, and by default Gematric, truth in a word or name. We also have the instances of Jesus saying things like "For those who have eyes to see and ears to hear". This is often taken to mean that there is hidden truth in scripture but one must know how to decipher it.

What I'm saying really is that there is hidden truth buried in scripture underneath the commonly understood meanings and that fact has been the basis for magical and scriptural studies for centuries.

What you said about God foreseeing the defiance of the Grigori (watchers), is completely true. In Enoch, God had already built the prisons for the angels before they made a pact and descended to Earth. This makes sense if we are to understand God in the ancient magical sense of many and one at the same time. Fundamental to magical theory is the idea that God is all and all is God, which basically makes it almost impossible to go against God's will, in other words, nothing happens unless God allows it. This begs the ancient theological question: If evil fulfills a good purpose and the outcome of it's actions are good, then is it truly evil? Has God not ordered acts that would otherwise be considered evil and dark such as the destruction of cities?

About the Antichrist, this again is magical ideology. In the Qaballah, each force has an equal yet opposing force. In other words, there is a good force and a mirroring bad force. However, I think it's more than that and we are getting to one of the points of my current phase of research.

What is the importance of Christ worship in Religion and what it it's historical basis? Basically I mean, did Jesus really want us to worship Him, create a religion around Him and build churches that defy the heavens in His name?

Theres so much I have to say I can't fit it all into one post but to put it simply, one of my current postulated theories is that the "Christian Religion" is not what it purports to be, that it was taken over and corrupted by demonic (grigoric) forces, corrupted and bent towards the worship of "The Lord of the Earth", namely "The Devil", or the grigori. Some evidence to this idea is the fact that the Cross used to represent the four elements that composed all matter on Earth, with the lower arm extended it points towards the Earth and away from heavenly things. I feel I have much evidence to support this claim but I have yet to compile it in a cohesive way.

I will say that I am not alone in this idea as it was shared, to a greater or lesser extent, by many "heretical" sects, one of which were the Gnostics.

(i've been enjoying our discussions btw)

reply to post by Shadowflux


WOW, we are most definitely on the same page here! I have a problem with the word 'Magic' though, perhaps it's just unknown science. The truth in scripture is hidden in plain sight which we are taught to dismiss as impossible and thus it becomes unbelievable. For example the importance of the calendar and your reply about the Lunar Calendar in the Book of Enoch has been lost to most of us.

In ancient recorded history Earth had a different calendar year of 360 days with 12 Lunar cycles of 30 days each. As the Myth goes the Lunar cycles remained the same and Earth's rotation, axial spin, changed by extending the year almost 5 1/4 days. This has been recorded by civilizations all over the world from around the same time period but most people believe that this is impossible thus making it not true or "unbelievable". The amount of evidence supporting this change in Earth's year is overwhelming yet all of it is still dismissed as ridiculous and is ignored, the truth is hidden in plain sight.

This is just one example out of thousands that has lead to the corruption of these scriptures and is what I consider the Anti-Christ, not some evil demon but those who are against the true teachings of Jesus.

Originally posterd by Shadowflux
"What is the importance of Christ worship in Religion and what it it's historical basis? Basically I mean, did Jesus really want us to worship Him, create a religion around Him and build churches that defy the heavens in His name?"

This is a good question and I believe that Jesus did not want anyone to 'worship' anything. Furthermore I believe proclaiming one's self a Prophet or Messiah makes it false. When Jesus was asked if he was the Messiah he said, "What do the people say I am? That is what I am". I believe that Jesus is the Christ and this makes it true for me but I will not corrupt this truth by preaching to anyone else what I believe as truth, it is what it is

Originally poste by Shadowflux
Theres so much I have to say I can't fit it all into one post but to put it simply, one of my current postulated theories is that the "Christian Religion" is not what it purports to be, that it was taken over and corrupted by demonic (grigoric) forces, corrupted and bent towards the worship of "The Lord of the Earth", namely "The Devil", or the grigori.
I will say that I am not alone in this idea as it was shared, to a greater or lesser extent, by many "heretical" sects, one of which were the Gnostics.

Whatever the name used to describe these corrupt and controlling forces they are all the same to me. 'Fear' and 'Hatred', which do not exist without belief. They are both used to deceive and it is not just the church or Christianity that is veiled by this deception. Gnosticism might also be something other than what it appears which begs the question, "Who are the real heretics?" Truth cannot be taught, it an only be found.


Add; I agree that there is far too much to discuss here, or anywhere else for that matter. Often times I feel that someone should write a book about some of this stuff.

[edit on 8/29/2009 by Devino]

Originally posted by skeetontheconspiracy
Lucifer wasnt banished from heaven, he hasn't fallen, he is still God's right hand man.
He does hate man like legend says and he puts man through trials and tribulations and tries to steer them in the wrong direction, thing is, he does this with god's approval. He is basically the one that tests man's faith.

 

Posted Via ATS Mobile: m.abovetopsecret.com

 

Your almost right but not 100% right. It is the responsiblity that was given.


Light bearer means one who holds light and shines light for others. There is no light without darkness. 666 Means test of the divine and man. The bridge between heavens and earth.

God is no greater than we. God is all that is.

hunanity will know the end of it.


Whats at the end of the tunnel.

Originally posted by Shadowflux
reply to post by plutoxgirl

 

The concept of Light, Dark and Ambivalence is very important. It is a commonly accepted fact that "good" can not exist without "evil", light without dark. However, there is more to it.

Light and Dark, Good and Evil, these are not separate concepts because of the magical law that "All is One" a fundamental law of Alchemy. God is perfect completeness, He is everything and contains within him all that is. The true God, the ultimate power literally IS everything and contains every possibility. Often through out the Bible we see "God" achieving his divine plan through the use of both "good" and "evil", "light" and "dark". God destroys people, cities, and at one time, the entire world. These would ordinarily be considered the actions of an "evil" deity yet they facilitate the "good" outcome of God's divine plan.

When we say that an angel or "demon" (from Greek daemon, a catch all term for spirits and gods) is "dark" we mean that it represents the darker side of the Universe and is usually responsible for what would be considered darker actions. However, a "dark" angel can act by the will of the Most High Creator and therefor can not be considered to truly be committing an act of "evil".

This is the concept of divine duality which is justified and reconciled in the concept of the complete oneness and perfection of all creation. God is at one time light and dark, good and evil, male and female. God encompasses all and all is God, therefore nothing can truly be deemed "evil".

The concept of Ambivalence is the key to the concept of prayer through saints or lesser divine beings such as the worship of angels or demons. God was ambivalent to Jesus's suffering, He neither punished Jesus's tormentors nor relieved Jesus of his duty.

God is so powerful and abstract that He is ambivalent to the majority of human requests. One may wish for material success but it is well known that praying to God for riches and fame is futile at best. This is why there is a host of lesser beings which represent and patronize different ideas and desires. These beings, sometimes known as angels and sometimes demons are not ambivalent to Earthly desires and are often very willing to impart that which is asked as long as it coincides with that being's station.

Since all is God and God is all then you can call upon these lesser forces without fear of committing "sin" or "evil". There is a caveat, however, and that is the idea that the fulfillment of Earthly desires quite often opposes spiritual development. That is the basis of the difference between "light magic" and "dark magic".

Sorry I missed this great post Shadowflux!-

But good timing to find it again.

Just for the record- I don't follow any formal religion or cult.
I like to contemplate about existence, and all that IS without any "coersive forces" hanging above me like sword of 'unique truth-do as I say or be prepared for the consequences.

I think we all find our 'personal' truth in the path, which might change/transform many times along the roads of time & destiny.

Originally posted by plutoxgirl
I like to contemplate about existence, and all that IS without any "coersive forces" hanging above me like sword of 'unique truth-do as I say or be prepared for the consequences.

If I understand your point here then this is what I call a 'God fearing' Christian point of view. I have always wondered what it is meant to be "a good, God fearing, Christian".
The more that I look into this question the more I find that God is not something that needs to be feared. I strongly believe that God is something that needs to be loved, God IS Love.

So the terms Satan, Devil, Hell and God fearing are used (or misused) by people to manipulate people for the purpose of control because of fear. The use of Revelations to promote fear as though the apocalypse is coming and we shall then be judged is false prophetical preaching. So now who is the anti-Christ?

Just to be clear on this last point of mine.
The version of Revelations that the apocalypse is a doomsday prophecy is just one version, a version that I believe to be false. Another version has this as an account of historical events. Some were descriptions of prophetic events that were yet-to-come for that time but have since passed. In other words this is a history book of world changing events.

So the idea of preaching Revelations today as an apocalyptic prophecy might be incorrect but in all fairness I might be the one who is incorrect.

However, to do this for the purpose of adding fear and confusion in order to control others is false. especially when all the while those preaching this fear are doing it because of fear. Understanding is Truth, confusion is fallacy.

I came across this video, "The History of the Devil" (aprox. 52 min), and thought it would make a good addition to this thread.

In a sense, Man has created Satan in his own image.

Someone here mentioned the Eastern Star....

Masonic Tradition is Luciferian at its Heart....LoL.

We are always facing the Eternal East.... we just can't see it.

Look there very close....

become a great archer.

yada yada

Heh it's really so simple, you'll prolly take a year or so of denial with it... because you thought all this time, it was some elaborate guru puzzle...

I think the Occult loves to play it up as some big mystery parade... loves to feel that they have some great intellectual advantage over the "normies"....

Well Lucifer is simple. Lucifer is the God Man. Lucifer is you, Me, and everyone. Satan is the portion of ourselves which run from the sight of this simple mystery. Lucifer is the Christ risen.... who now bears the light, having defeated his Fear of the Light of the Eastern Star... the Eternal East... the three wise men whom follow this star to the cradle of the SUN of God.....

I can't spell it out for you..... but the center of the circle is a good place to look... just beware of what you seek.... for you may find yourself in a very similar situation as Jesus was on the cross.... bleeding to death from his wounds, and unable to move... crucified between two thieves....

The only thing that separates Kings from mere men is their willingness to die.

Simplicity was never so hard to accept...

Perhaps that's wh it's so heavily steeped in allegory. No one would believe that the truth is literally hidden right in front (or behind?) of their faces...

Although... I believe that most people would rather argue over the conflicting details of the much more elabrate allegories, because ya know... once we all agree on something, there will be nothing left to argue about.

And as well...

Once the Truth is found, most will simply glance over it.... either out of discomfort or disgust... or their own arrogance, thinking that they know of some loftier thing that it should be.

Everyone has seen the Truth at least once in their lives....

Simple, elegant..... solemn, serious, awful.... but do not fret, because it is not the end.

Let the pigdogs fret.... let them die trembling in fear.

They will never wish to understand. They therefore relegate themselves to the slave trade.

Let this language I use here not confuse nor offend you. If you wish to know the Truth, you wish to be offended to death. I will offend the ego to death, for I am the Beast 666. I eat people for breakfast. I # out Gods like turds.

Hahaha this would be great fun if it weren't for the fact that I was dead serious... but it's all an act, basically to convey something to anyone with eyes to hear and ears to see (paradoxes). Satan knows his place but rejects it. Lucifer accepts his place, and does what he must. It might be right handed. It might be left handed. As long as man is not in denial of who he is.. he will do great things. Great good. Great evil. Always and forever... you cannot win without losing.

The biblical lessons, the talmudic lessons, the Vedic lessons, the Celtic lessons, the Babylonian lessons.... ALL talking about the same thng.

Use your sense of feelings to find the correspondances. When you begin to understand the symbolism behind the allegores, then you begin to see the correspondences, and it will eventually lead you either directly or indirectly towards a confrontation with Truth.

Of course, the intellectual person probably won't get it. They like knowing lots of things and being very tedious and accurate about "facts".

So argue on until the Beast comes a knockin....

Oh and only worship what you KNOW is a Lie, because the more absurd the belief, the better. Beliefs are living tools. Either you use them, or they use you.

reply to post by dunwichwitch

Originally posted by dunwichwitch
Well Lucifer is simple. Lucifer is the God Man. Lucifer is you, Me, and everyone. Satan is the portion of ourselves which run from the sight of this simple mystery. Lucifer is the Christ risen.... who now bears the light, having defeated his Fear of the Light of the Eastern Star... the Eternal East... the three wise men whom follow this star to the cradle of the SUN of God.....

I can't spell it out for you..... but the center of the circle is a good place to look... just beware of what you seek.... for you may find yourself in a very similar situation as Jesus was on the cross.... bleeding to death from his wounds, and unable to move... crucified between two thieves....

It is as simple as that but oh so difficult for so many to accept. Lucifer and man have the same myth of falling from grace. The Bright and Shining Morning Star is used to describe both Lucifer/Satan and the Christ. Whether it's the Son of the Morning or the Archangel Michael they are both two sides of the same coin. One descending into the depths of matter and one rising onwards to victory and glory.

Originally posted by dunwichwitch
I can't spell it out for you..... but the center of the circle is a good place to look... just beware of what you seek.... for you may find yourself in a very similar situation as Jesus was on the cross.... bleeding to death from his wounds, and unable to move... crucified between two thieves....

Christ said "Narrow is the way which leadeth unto life and few there be that find it". Couldn't the "straight and narrow way" mean the very understanding of the above, i.e the polar opposites in mythology, Satan and Christ? Only by viewing both together as a whole do we understand the whole picture.

It's not a matter of good and bad and it's not a matter of bad and good. It just is.

"Beware what you seek". Yea. Hercules knew this pain all right. When in the myth of the search of the Golden Apples, for instance. After not finding apples of wisdom in the east, north, south or west, he finally heard they could found upon a certain mountain. He was climbing the mountain side in his pursuit when he saw Atlas holding the world on his shoulders, his body bowed over and his face lined with pain. Hercules immediately forgot about his pursuit for the fruits of wisdom, dropped everything and began to take the weight of the world on his own shoulders. It's the ultimate sacrifice, like the Great Renunciation of the Buddha. "Beware what you seek", there's comfort in ignorance but no moving on.

I believe the crucifixion between two thieves is very symbolic. The three crosses on Mount Golgotha were Biblical symbols of these three astrological crosses, the Common or Mutable Cross, the Fixed Cross and the Cardinal Cross and each cross marks a certain crises point in the path of our evolution. The Cross of the Crucified Christ is represented by the Fixed Cross. It's the cross of the bull, the lion, the eagle/serpent and the man, see Ezek. 1:10 and Rev. 4:7, and corrosponds to the four corners of the earth.

These are some of my ponderings. I have to go now (my daughter's bugging me for the internet).

Cheers.

- Neo