Satan vs Lucifer

There is a great deal of vagueness about these two (one?) characters.

Most people in common usage swap between the names and consider them the same.

Others see a difference. This difference has been positied in many ways, but perhaps the most common is to identify "Satan" with "Satanel," the shadowy, primeval serpent that tempted Eve in the garden, while "Lucifer" is seen as a high angelic being close to God who fell from Heaven due to his hubris and lust to surplant God as the highest being, taking a whole host of aligned fallen angels with him after losing the War in Heaven to the Archangels Michael and Raphael.

"Satanism" and "Luciferianism" are also seen by many as two different types of "-isms," but even here there is a lot of confusion about what each term might or might not mean. It really depends on who you talk to.

It's interesting to me that while so many issues in Christian History have been argued over and doctrines on this or that detail have been hammered out with the precision of micro-glassmakers, this whole side of things has been left rather...vague, with seemingly no doctrinal consensus within or among any of the major branches of Christianity.

What say you?

And please let's not turn this into another "Christian versus athiest" thread...there are already zillions of those elsewhere if that's your cup of tea....if you think they are both imaginary creatures of deluded humans than fine, that's your right, but I'm really not too interested in ploughing through a gajillion posts arguing about this matter back and forth. I respectfully ask all participants of whatever faith to confine their discussion here to the possible difference or identity between these two figures, rather than arguing tiresomely about their existence or lack thereof. If you consider the whole thing a myth, that's fine as far as I'm concerned and you are welcome to participate, but let's focus on clarifying the myth itself according to its own internal logic, rather than whether or not it it is valid (something you can do in ten quintilklion other internet threads).

Thanks in advance.

reply to post by silent thunder



I just did a quick read on the wiki and from them it would seam the difference is night and day it would seam that the Jews identify Satan as there protagonist and Christians identify threes as Lucifer

The Lucifer story
A pagan myth of the fall of angels, associated with the morning star, was transferred to Satan already in the pre-Christian century, as seen in the Life of Adam and Eve and the Second Book of Enoch[3], where Satan-Sataniel (sometimes identified with Samael) is described as having been one of the archangels. Because he contrived "to make his throne higher than the clouds over the earth and resemble 'My power' on high", Satan-Sataniel was hurled down, with his hosts of angels, and since then he has been flying in the air continually above the abyss.[4]

Lucifer, another of Gustave Doré's illustrations for Paradise Lost by John Milton.A pagan myth of the fall of angels, associated with the morning star, was transferred to Satan already in the pre-Christian century, as seen in the Life of Adam and Eve and the Second Book of Enoch[3], where Satan-Sataniel (sometimes identified with Samael) is described as having been one of the archangels. Because he contrived "to make his throne higher than the clouds over the earth and resemble 'My power' on high", Satan-Sataniel was hurled down, with his hosts of angels, and since then he has been flying in the air continually above the abyss.[4]

Early Christian writers continued this identification of "Lucifer" with Satan. Tertullian ("Contra Marrionem," v. 11, 17), Origen ("Ezekiel Opera," iii. 356), and others, identify Lucifer with Satan, who also is represented as being "cast down from heaven" (Revelation 12:7-10; cf. Luke 10:18).[4]

However, some contemporary exorcists and theologians such as Father Jose Antonio Fortea and Father Amorth in their experience and based on Bible interpretations have reasons to believe that Satan and Lucifer are different beings.[5]

The New Testament shows a high development of demonology. In consonance with the Gospels beliefs of the lower orders of society, the devil and his realm are regarded as an entire ubiquitousness in all the events of daily life. In accordance, he has many names: "Satan" (Matt. 4:10; Mark 1:30, 4:15; Luke 10:18), "devil" (Matt. 4:1), "adversary" (1. Peter 5:8, ἀντίδικος; 1. Tim. 5:14, ἀντικείμενος), "enemy" (Matt. 13:39), "accuser" (Rev. 12:10), "old serpent" (Rev. 20:2), "great dragon" (Rev. 12:9), Beelzebub (Matt. 10:25, 12:24), and Belial (comp. Samael). In Luke 10:18, John 12:31, 2. Cor. 6:16, and Rev. 12:9 the fall of Satan is mentioned. The devil is regarded as the author of all evil (Luke 10:19; Acts 5:3; 2. Cor. 11:3; Ephes. 2:2), who beguiled Eve (2. Cor. 11:3; Rev. 12:9). Satan brought death itself into the world (Heb. 2:13), being ever the tempter (1. Cor. 7:5; 1. Thess. 3:5; 1. Peter 5:8), even as he tempted Jesus (Matt. 4). The Christian demonology and belief in the devil dominated subsequent periods[6]. However, though the New Testament includes the conception that Satan fell from heaven with the velocity of lightning (Luke x. 18; Rev. xii. 7-10), [7] it nowhere applies the name Lucifer to him.

lucifer

Hmm, I have always thought they have the same meaning “the devil” just different names given in the many religious texts, but I would go for Lucifer because we all know that Satan plays for the Pittsburgh penguins.

sorry i could not resist

reply to post by paradiselost333


who'd have thunk it that he pronounces his name "shuttanne".
Myself, i think it's entirely possible that the real protagonist has been buried so as to allow those that would the power to assign their own, befitting their needs at the time.

I seem to recall Jesus using the word satan "away from me satan" and lucifer..but i don't know.

Maybe somebody who knows the bible well can remember off the top of their head if possible? I'd be interested in looking at the context of the opposing usages, myself.

I was looking around for some info on what the difference between lucifer and satan was. So I came into this source:
www.theosophy-nw.org...

according to the source, Satan was an angel in the court of god with the function of accusing people. in other words he was a servant of god.

Lucifer means "bearer of light" or "shining star". according to the source, the king of babylon was called Lucifer when being mocked by a prophet.
"In Isaiah 14 the prophet is taunting the king of Babylon: "In the figurative language of the Hebrews, . . . a star, signifies an illustrious king or prince . . . The monarch here referred to, having surpassed all other kings in royal splendour, is compared to the harbinger of day, whose brilliancy surpasses that of the surrounding stars"

in other words, Lucifer is not satan or the devil, but in fact the title of a king, a man.

In fact, according to the source there is no evidence for the fall of satan anywhere in the bible except for christian literature. the only evidence would be the fall of Lucifer, which in fact is a misconception because Lucifer was a King, not an archangel.

Lucifer and Satan were further confused as the centuries went by and erroneously interchangeable with each other when referring to the fallen angel.
Of course, if this source is correct and there is no evidence for the fall of satan other than the misconception that Lucifer is Satan... then that little fact would bring a whole new problem to where the devil came from in christian stories.

Lucifer literally means "light-bringer" or "light-bearer."

Satan is "the devil," lol.

There is a huge difference imo. Lucifer is an angel.

ive also herd a theory about how since God is perfect in all ways possible and that he created angels without the freedom of choice!! that is one of the things that seperates us from angels is it not? if this is true then God could have possibly "ordered" lucifer, satan, etc to do a job here on earth and tempt us as is his job....this theory comes from a friend that was a wiccan....

Another site claiming that the word lucifer is generally misinterpreted:

www.apologeticspress.org...

reply to post by heyo


More or less our sources mention the same thing. Interesting... Maybe I could debate this with my seventh day adventist uncle. So if lucifer is not actually the devil, and satan was not mentioned to have fallen (since the fall would not be part of the story since the fall of Lucifer would be the fall of a king, not an angel) then who exactly would the messiah come to fight?

to the OP, thanks for opening this thread, you made this atheist go and look for some more info into this subject.

reply to post by newworld



first off, good for you for thanking the op for the circular argument disclaimer lol: thanks op.

yeah, you know, from what i recall, and i don't recall much, is that jesus generally referred to the devil as satan, or maybe deciever, but i could be wrong on that second one.
What's weird is it isn't the kind of thing that would really matter, yet if it was wrong, people would fight to the death to keep it's meaning.
I definately don't think they're two seperate angels, but maybe one a former king and one the fallen angel.

reply to post by heyo


I think Jesus referred to the devil as the "deceiver" or the "enemy" unless I'm wrong. However the sources also mention that there was a difference on the role Satan played on both the old and new testament. Maybe some of the writers of the bible also made the assumption that Lucifer was Satan? that would explain the issue of Satan's role change in the book.

reply to post by silent thunder


Lucifer was the name of one of the covering Cherubim depicted on the Ark of the Covenant. He was one of the angels that stood on either side of God's throne.

He was given 1/3 of the angels and placed on Earth to continue God's government, to beautify and complete the Earth, and in so doing: "Develop his character".

He rebelled against God's rule. His name was changed to Satan.

Lucifer does not exist anymore, his name was changed to Satan, and it is the same being, in both instances!!!!!!

Lucifer: "Bringer of light"

Satan: "Enemy of God"

reply to post by heyo


Hi heyo/

As we know in the Old Testament and in the New Testament Names were often changed....

Genesis 17:1-7, 9-12, 14
1 And when Abram was ninety years old and nine,
the LORD appeared to Abram,
and said unto him,
I am the Almighty God; walk before me,
and be thou perfect.
2 And I will make my covenant between me and thee,
and will multiply thee exceedingly.
3 And Abram fell on his face: and God talked with him,
saying,
4 As for me, behold, my covenant is with thee,
and thou shalt be a father of many nations.
5 Neither shall thy name any more be called Abram,
but thy name shall be Abraham;(Abraham means 'father of many nations) for a father of many nations have I made thee.
6 And I will make thee exceeding fruitful,
and I will make nations of thee, and kings shall come out of thee.
In the New Testament Jesus Christ does the same thing with all His Apostles...Under the New Covenant
Simon became Peter, Saul became Paul.
Mary (Theotokos)however did not because she was not chosen to have a new nature or function later in life; rather she was already chosen from the beginning - which she gave her consent and freely accepted as seen in Scripture.


Establishes the New Covenant because...A PSALM for the future!
My people did not hear My voice,
and Israel harkened not to Me ...
They gave Me gall for My food,
and in My thirst they gave Me vinegar to drink ...
Let their eyes be darkened,
and their back bend down always.
Pour out Thy indignation upon them: let Thy wrathful anger take hold of them.
Let their habitation be made desolate,
and let there be no One to dwell in their tabernacles,
because they have persecuted Him Whom Thou hast smitten,
and they have added to the grief of My wounds.
Add Thou iniquity upon their iniquity; and let them not come into Thy justice.
Let them be blotted out of the Book of the Living,
and with the Just let them not be written.
Psalm 80:12,68:22-29

They have rejected Me,
that I should not reign over them ... They have forsaken Me and served strange gods....I wonder WHO it is these STRANGE gods are refered to?
1 Kings 8:7-8

Let their eyes be dim so that they cannot see,
and let them walk bent-backed forever with a heavy load.
Psalm 68:24...Prophecy fullfilled.


You stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears,
you always resist the Holy Ghost; as your fathers did,
so do you also.
Which of the prophets have not your fathers persecuted?
And they have slain them who foretold the coming of the Just One,
of Whom you have now been the betrayers and murderers.
Acts 7:51-52

Lucifer was an Angel who God Loved.
Lucifer was the BRIGHTEST of Angels....But became the DARKEST-SATAN!
Lucifer was the first to rebel in pride against his Creator,
and he was followed by many other angels who left God....these fallen ones that followed Lucifer became demons!
But to leave God means to leave life and embrace death.(DEATH means without Gods Presence)
The rebellious/evil spirits left God of their own accord,
and the just Lord also left them,
leaving them to their own will....They became jealous that God created Man and sought to bring DEATH to mankind through ADAM,only partially succeeding as Prophesy was Fullfilled by the Son of God, Jesus Christ the Lord!
+The struggle of Satan against God and all His creation+
What Pure hatred and EVIL...Thus, Satan being unable to attack God Himself,attack God through His creation,
especially through man,
who has been created in His likeness and image...
Satan takes great pleasure in getting people to become his slave and do his evil work....And likewise Angels of God do their work in relation to being Gods Messengers.

ICXC NIKA
helen

Originally posted by starwarp2000
reply to post by silent thunder


He rebelled against God's rule. His name was changed to Satan.

Lucifer does not exist anymore, his name was changed to Satan, and it is the same being, in both instances!!!!!!

Lucifer: "Bringer of light"

Satan: "Enemy of God"

Hi starwarp/

Sorry I didn't see your post...
Name change,



ICXC NIKA
helen

there is nothing in the ogrinal bible writtn in hebrew that speak about an angel that fell from heaven called satan or lucifer. lucifer s actualy a latin name for venus tha got mistranslated by the romans.

but in the bible it does speak about giants not of this world

I think Satan may eminate from Setan or Setian, who was the dark brother of Horus, or Osiris.

I think of it in terms of
1) the ego-self attempting an assent to the Godhead in violation of universal law.

2) It could also be thought of as a spiritual rebellious principal involving a universal controvery or contest over divine authority.

Jesus said to Peter I believe it was, when Peter indicated that Jesus should NOT under any circumstances allow himself to be taken and killed when in Jerusalem for the passover - "Get thee behind me Satan! Peter, you are thinking as MAN thinks, not as God thinks."

Interestingly in Revelations, Jesus is himself as enlightened God-consciousness, referred to as the "bright morning star" which is Venus.
The bright morning star was also said to be on the horizon at the moment of Sidartha Buddha's enlightenment experience.

The light of illumination is the light of enlightenment, where ordinary human consciousness transforms into God-consciousness. IMO

Jesus, therefore, is himself a type of Lucifer.

[edit on 31-7-2009 by OmegaPoint]

Originally posted by starwarp2000
Lucifer does not exist anymore, his name was changed to Satan, and it is the same being, in both instances!!!!!!

Lucifer: "Bringer of light"

Satan: "Enemy of God"

That's an interesting opinion. Mind if I probe you for a few questions?

Where do you think Satan or Lucifer exist? Or where hell exists? Do you think they're physical beings or that hell is a physical place, or is it non-physical? If it's non-physical, do you think quantum physics still applies there, or time itself, any of those things?

don't mean to double post but why do ppl used the holy bible or king james version to make a point? don't youknow the roman bible was approved by the roman government? there are over 40 gospels but yet the roman bible only uses 4 of them. this the same bible that claims slavery is okay and more verses about money than about peace and love, the same bible that claims the earth oly been around 6000 yearswhile we've bones of humans much older than that.

the bible is just cover story like 9/11 commission report. to find tru words we to go further back in time and connected the dot, and besides jesus in th bible is just other alter ego of nimrod

Originally posted by Apache-Yaqui
there is nothing in the ogrinal bible writtn in hebrew that speak about an angel that fell from heaven called satan or lucifer. lucifer s actualy a latin name for venus tha got mistranslated by the romans.

but in the bible it does speak about giants not of this world

Hi Apache/

Of-course there is!
The Original SEPTUAGINT(of the Seventy)Old Testament was in fact Translated by Hebrew and Greek....
The whole Chapter is a good one,but here it is in Greek and English/
Esaias Chapter 14
12 How has Lucifer, that rose in the morning, fallen from heaven! He that sent [orders] to all the nations is crushed to the earth.
13 But thou saidst in thine heart, I will go up to heaven,
I will set my throne above the stars of heaven: I will sit on a lofty mount, on the lofty mountains toward the north:
14 I will go up above the clouds: I will be like the Most High.
15 But now thou shalt go down to hell, even to the foundations of the earth.
Greek///
12 πῶς ἐξέπεσεν ἐκ τοῦ οὐρανοῦ ὁ ἑωσφόρος ὁ πρωΐ ἀνατέλλων; συνετρίβη εἰς τὴν γῆν ὁ ἀποστέλλων πρὸς πάντα τὰ ἔθνη.
13 σὺ δὲ εἶπας ἐν τῇ διανοίᾳ σου· εἰς τὸν οὐρανὸν ἀναβήσομαι, ἐπάνω τῶν ἀστέρων τοῦ οὐρανοῦ θήσω τὸν θρόνον μου, καθιῶ ἐν ὄρει ὑψηλῷ, ἐπὶ τὰ ὄρη τὰ ὑψηλὰ τὰ πρὸς Βορρᾶν.
14 ἀναβήσομαι ἐπάνω τῶν νεφῶν, ἔσομαι ὅμοιος τῷ ῾Υψίστῳ.
15 νῦν δὲ εἰς ᾅδην καταβήσῃ καὶ εἰς τὰ θεμέλια τῆς γῆς.

Lucifer!
There is NO mistranslation just Falsified Translations!

ICXC NIKA
helen

EDIT...BOOK OF Book of ESAIAS ~SEPTUAGINT~~~

[edit on 7/31/2009 by helen670]

reply to post by silent thunder


Religion is getting more and more like chinese whispers everyday.

So much of it changes...another book is found etc.

After a while I tend to tire of even considering who does what, who could be who... pfft!

I am off to sit in the park and enjoy the sunshine

peace