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Satan vs Lucifer

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posted on Aug, 2 2009 @ 09:51 PM
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This idea of religious beliefs and mythology being astronomical events only describes some of the stories. There are many elements that do not fit but I would like to point out that it makes a lot more sense than much of what is being preached as gospel.

Most importantly is to think of these accounts of catastrophes as historical events and not doomsday prophecies. All of the alleged prophetic apocalyptic events are nothing more than fear propaganda just like teaching that sinners go to hell and that the corruption of Satan needs to be destroyed. Promoting fear and hatred is the creation of evil, do not become what you despise.




posted on Aug, 2 2009 @ 10:04 PM
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reply to post by Devino
 


well i think that's quite an interesting tale about venus and jupiter and so on but unfortunately, it requires you ignore pretty much everything else
that's why i say, ya can't just cherry pick the ideas. they all mesh together. it's multi-layered.



posted on Aug, 2 2009 @ 11:10 PM
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reply to post by undo
 

You lost me on that one, how could anyone cherry pick ideas about the difference between Lucifer and Satan when there is so little to pick from. It's hard to ignore any of it when there are only a few vague references.

As for the tale in my post it's based on some of the myths I have read from different cultures and even though I made several of the connections the characters and story lines are not mine. I guess you could say I cherry picked the connections but from what I have found that really isn't necessary as ancient myths are full of connections and references to gods, angles, mythical creatures, stars, constellations, moons and planets. One would have to ignore all of that and cherry pick their way out of it.

It's possible what I saw was due to a lot of incorrect translations and numerous errors made in the way it all was recorded through history. If that's the case than I feel the only thing left to do would be to find the closest thing to the original documents as I can and go from there.



posted on Aug, 2 2009 @ 11:40 PM
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reply to post by Devino
 


i wasn't referencing lucifer and satan in this case. it's just a good idea when referring to ancient history, to look at the big picture, since taking only one example out of thousands is probably going to be less than revealing. an example is the references to the planets, that you made. not saying it isn't legit, just that it's part of a much greater conglomeration of data. how do i explain this....

it's like trying to describe a complex and ancient thing with only one glimpse at one part of it, as seen by someone other than yourself, and that someone getting his/her information from only one source and one perspective, and that source is translating the data based on his own translations that don't match anyone else's translations and ......you get the idea.



posted on Aug, 3 2009 @ 06:56 PM
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Hi
Great thread I thought i would also add Tawsi Malek the peacock angel.
Some thought him as the devil other say he is the true creator and ruler of the universe.
The Yezidi belives him to be good and that pride was not his sin,that Meleke Taus was the greatest angel of all,because he did not bow down to man,following god's order not to bow down to anyone but him.
“The first day which He (the Supreme God) created was Sunday. On that day He created an angel whose name was 'Azra'il. This is Melekê Taus, who is the greatest of all.
On Monday He created the Angel Darda'il, who is Shaikh Hasan.
On Tuesday He created the Angel Israfil, who is Shaikh Shams.
On Wednesday He created the Angel Mika'il, who is Shaikh Abu Bakr.
On Thursday He created the Angel Gibra'il, who is Sagad ad-Din.
On Friday He created the Angel Shimna'il, who is Nasir ad-Din.
On Saturday He created the Angel Nura'il, who is Yadin [Fakhr ad-Din].
And God made Melekê Taus the greatest of them.”
Truth: In the Yezidi tradition it is indeed stated that the Peacock Angel was present in the Garden of Eden. He failed to bow down to Adam because he was obeying God. The Yezidis claim that previous to the creation of Adam the Supreme God had informed all Seven Great Angels never bow down to any other entity other than Him.

www.yeziditruth.org...



posted on Aug, 4 2009 @ 05:44 PM
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Here is a website i think is pretty cool,some good info on Azazel and the 7 angels,thought you guys might like this.
www.semjaaza.com...



posted on Aug, 5 2009 @ 01:28 AM
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Originally posted by themuse

Hi all

I wont go as far to say Lucifer is ‘one’ being, it makes more sense to me that Luciferian worship be more of a way/belief system as opposed to a single being/entity, whether it be a dark emperor whose power/control structure depends on the perpetuation of said energy in their minions ala starwars’ darkside, or perhaps a planet/dimension, species included, whose survival depends on the energy collected, like the monsters inc world with the screams/fear of the children that was vital to their worlds survival.. Just as the Sun, or its energy rather, is key to our planet and all beings here’s survival.

I cant tie Lucifer and the god/satan concept together. Luciferianism appears to be a serious secretive business. It appears those that know the actual dynamics or fundamentals keep it hidden or perhaps they just aren’t in my neighbourhood and that why I cant find worshippers to spill their beans!

I have been pondering whether we all inadvertently contribute energy towards Luciferian worship everyday since I saw the Alpha Romeo logo of the lizard eating a person and the templars cross. Is this symbol a sign of a ritually bound brand? If so does the bound brand transform your innocent intentions and love for your vehicle into something else to feed its source? Its likely this may be the smallest cult in the world but the most prevalent in our everyday life.

When you consider it’s said that the NWO elites (the badies) allegedly worship a luciferian belief/way and their use of symbols, Key to this Luciferian worship appears to be about harvesting energy from this world or at least the human visible spectrum and directing it somewhere for a purpose we know not.

Could buying an alpha romeo or music by an artist who is signed to an badie owned music label or fast food from one of their chains be an indirect way to ‘harvest’ said energy?.

Its my view that Satan is something a guilty catholic or christian made up. I stated this in an earlier post here. The concept is just too perfect to be a plain statement that he’s a real ‘he’, Its the ideal ‘justification’ for the wrong doings of church goers but even more-so the perfect concept to induce submission and control through the fear of believers, church goers and all Christians that they COULD be led astray/sin by satan or by whatever they consider the work of satan.

He goes hand in hand in the bible with that old chestnut ‘temptation. Now with the ‘temptation is bad’ concept and the ‘wolf in sheep’s clothing’ passage in the bible, well could it be said the ‘temptation and wolf’ are infact these everyday things we consume.

As to whether Lucifer and satan are one in the same or not, regardless of what we all think or believe this concept exists as a belief system and hence something is benefiting from the worship. If this is happening through a passive means such as buying an alpha because you like them then that sucks


Cheers everyone
Have the best day
themuse




[edit on 2/8/2009 by themuse]


yes, your correct (IMHO). it's very secretive which certainly does not lend any favors to what most consider "the true satanist, or, luciferian.
there are several factors at play here.

first, if the "true satanist" keeps his/her practices/belief to themselves then there can be no one burned at the stake whenever TPTB decide what is best for them (history can and does repeat as we all know).

second, nothing is more personal than how a individual chooses to acknowledge the creative force termed god and it's influence (or lack there of) on what it's created. as a result, most (if not all) "true satanists" will never say a word to anyone who is not apart of that structure or belief system. this is personal choice and in no way reflects the system or it's values.

third, because most are caught up in the religious wars that have existed since the dawn of free will (forever). as long as one group believes their god is superior, that group will wage wars "in the name of god" against the other deemed inferior.

the late rev. a. lavey (i use the title rev. because it was his legal title, not because he was my reverend.) founder and high priest of the curch of satan i'm sure was fully aware of the conflict the name alone would generate. no doubt that was a reason he chose it.
however, the typical view of god/devil, evil/good, christian/satanist does not apply to the belief. a "true satanist" does not believe in the judeo/christian concept of god and devil.

although most will no doubt add their own opinions regarding the system (which i might add has nothing to do with personal insight/first hand knowledge and more to do with what they have read), simply put, it's a way of living and understanding of human nature and the insights of philosophers who advocated materialism and individualism. in other words, i'm a student of earth, and because i'm eternal, my subtle bodies do not die. therefore, while i'm here i choose to study and learn from the great mother (earth).

cheers,
AA



PS- most of us are giving, compassionate, understanding humans (there are bad seeds in every apple). however, if you harm one and that was your intent, you might be in for far more than you bargained for. just food for thought.



posted on Aug, 5 2009 @ 09:05 PM
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reply to post by anonamousantichrist
 


we humans are not from earth but came out of the earth. it's the language of the ancient texts that causes the confusion. more recent texts, like those of the new testament prophecies, are closer to our language today and as a result are invaluable in deciphering the older texts. my theory is that the bottomless pit referred to in ancient texts, such as chapter 9 of the book of revelation (which see!), is an interdimensional (wormhole) portal. so the worm in your apple is likely a fancy piece of advanced technology that creates and harnesses a wormhole for interdimensional or interplanetary travel, as the case may be.




[edit on 5-8-2009 by undo]



posted on Aug, 7 2009 @ 05:47 PM
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Originally posted by gwynnhwyfar

Originally posted by starwarp2000

Originally posted by newworld
reply to post by gwynnhwyfar
 


that's the EXACT source i posted in the beginning of the thread. People either don't read it or simply dismiss the information. I thought the issue of the difference between Satan and Lucifer was already clarified in this thread? did i miss something???

(thanks for posting it here though, it will help those who decide to read from the last pages. and sorry if the tone of my post seems to be anger, it's actually neutral
)



Yes you did miss something!
The issue hasn't been clarified.

That article was written by a Theosophist which has nothing to do with the Christian religion.
For a Theosophist to comment on religious matters, would be like next time you want your car fixed you take it to a bicycle mechanic. You may get your car fixed but it wont be as good as a real mechanic and it will probably break down sooner than later.
LOL Like this argument


The Theosophist you would like to dismiss quoted references to specific historical texts. Christian or non-Christian, one can't easily deny the existence of a textual reference. Have you more qualified reference(s) that you could refer us to, in order to clarify the issue?

[edit on 1-0820098-0909 by gwynnhwyfar]


Well my source is the 'Holy Bible'.
Not some theophistic text which quotes some other Theophistic texts.
These 'documents' you speak of, written in whale's blood on toilet paper, are useful for only one thing.

Cheers



posted on Aug, 11 2009 @ 03:06 AM
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Satan is know as the Serpent who tempted eve into consuming the forbidden fruit. Serpents are reptilian in appearance. so i would assume Satan is some sort of Leader of the Reptilian Extraterrestrials that occupy the earth beneath the surface. And since it is belived that the Reptilians are Enemys to man as they use them for an energy source. It is also safe to assume that Hell would be in their domain. Certain Parts where they have dug really deep holes they have heard people screaming and such. So they may have found a place where they are holding humans captive and/or consuming them. Another note is that the Reptilians are belived to be here predating humans, Wich would also predate Christianity or the start of man kind hence adam and eve and the temptaion of the forbidden fruit. Makes sense to me.



posted on Aug, 25 2009 @ 11:38 AM
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Lucifer and Yaweh are both 6th and 7th density respectively. Yaweh governs the laws of nature. The angel Lucifer 6th density governs the 6 laws and test's the divine of all laws of 7. It was pre ordained. They are both not the actual creator of this universe but the creator of this world really. You and all that is the divine supreme creator. This is the natural test of the divine. But the ironic thing with earth is. No planet has ever been so infused by such higher dimensions in such a profound way. Most planet are governed by more simple forms of evolution where much few entities and animals exists. But the truth is the bible is mostly correct on their interpretation of earth. Though the bible is majorly fabricated.

People have to realise that after Yaweh they are 5 greater laws higher than the 7th dimension. And there are multiverses beyond this. The human mind only can understand up to the 7th dimension after that in the physical, spiritual and mental view of reality. The mind infuses with the divine in the 7th dimension, where separation and chaos doesn't exist. The mind becomes one with the one. This is why people consider 7 to be the number of completion in many respects. In actual fact it is really that. 7days of the week can be counted in on this statement for example.

So if one was of the 7th dimension you would be jesus and of Christ consciousness. Every soul that has reached this level of knowing, would all be one with nature. You would not be separated with anything whatsoever. So the idealogy of where the entity Lucifer came in was, he didn't want this, The rebellion was merely the conflict with the self. The fear stems from being simply you. That is the manifestation of fear each and everyone of our souls are now facing on this world. He knows the truth and supreme power of the higher laws of being. This holds into a lot of the idea that Lucifer/satans decepts the world.

I have to give to him though in one respect. It made earth existence interesting and unlike many worlds since this universe began. Talk about intensity on this planet. If people can get past the whole good vs evil thing, you will be able to understand this more in depth as I have done.

its a great story. Life is a game. All you need to know here is. Lucifer isn't evil and God Isn't good. It is just you testing who you are.






[edit on 25-8-2009 by Mind1universe]



posted on Aug, 25 2009 @ 03:41 PM
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As this is a subject fairly close to me I thought I might add my thoughts as I find myself with excess free time.

Lucifer and Satan are indeed two separate magical concepts that have been construed to relate to each other over the course of centuries. Lucifer is "the Morning Star" and the "bringer of light", yet even these two titles have very different origins.

Lucifer was represented by the star/planet Venus, which under classical rules was considered male. Venus is the "Morning Star" as it is the last star to defy the light of morning, it was thought the star is probably punished for it's arrogance in opposing such an omnipotent force. From this ancient belief we see the foundation for the story of Lucifer's opposition to God and his subsequent punishment.

However, Lucifer has also been connected by many with the serpent in the garden of Eden. When Lucifer is referred to as "the Bringer of Light" it was often meant to refer to the bringing of the light of knowledge into the darkness of ignorance. In ancient tradition wisdom was thought to be of the utmost importance and was a prerequisite for eternal salvation as is evidenced by Egyptian and Greek "Books of the Dead" which include instructions for the after life.

But it was this pairing of Lucifer with the Serpent of Eden that brought most of the Christian wrath upon these sects. Many believed that the God of the Old Testament was not the ultimate all powerful "God" but was somewhat evil and sought to keep man in the darkness of ignorance. Since wisdom and knowledge were needed to attain Oneness with the true God it was thought the the desire of the Old Testament god to keep man in ignorance was wholly evil. Many Christians obviously saw this as heretical and further justified the belief in the maliciousness of the Christian god by committing all manner of horrible acts upon their fellow man.

Satan, who's name means "The Adversary" or in some cases "The Accuser" is not "The Devil". Satan's original vocation was somewhat akin to that of a prosecuting attorney. It was Satan who's job it was to argue against a given defendant before God and the "Heavenly Host". Satan was not well liked due to this station and he is also often thought of as "The False Accuser" which implies that he was a bit overzealous in his persecutions.

Most of this information is not included in what is known as "The Holy Bible" as most copies are sorely lacking in real information. Much of this comes from ancient apocrypha as well as Qaballistic and Gnostic beliefs. I believe it is safe to assume that these were also inspired by Greek, Latin, Egyptian and Hermetic traditions to name but a few.

Neither Satan nor Lucifer were originally thought of as the cause of evil and sin on the Earth. Sounding a bit like Zoroastrianism, we find the original story of the origin of evil in the Old Testament in the legend of "The Watchers". These were angels assigned to watch over the Earth and to help enact God's will. These angels began to lust after the daughters of men and eventually descended to Earth and copulated with them. The products of the union between angel and human were "giants" and legendary "men of renown", yet some have considered these offspring as abominations.

Satan and Lucifer were not members of "The Watchers", their leader was the angel Azazel.

Here, again we see the correlation between "Evil" and "Knowledge" as Azazel, like the other angels, taught skills to mankind as we can see here:




he taught men the art of warfare, of making swords, knives, shields, and coats of mail, and women the art of deception by ornamenting the body, dyeing the hair, and painting the face and the eyebrows, and also revealed to the people the secrets of witchcraft and corrupted their manners, leading them into wickedness and impurity; until at last he was, at the Lord's command, bound hand and foot by the archangel Raphael and chained to the rough and jagged rocks of [Ha] Duduael (= Beth Ḥadudo), where he is to abide in utter darkness until the great Day of Judgment, when he will be cast into the fire to be consumed forever

(from wiki)


This is quite in line with both magical theory and practice as demons are known to impart knowledge upon practitioners who summon them, one of the most common of which is music talents. We also see a fundamental motif of the "wickedness" and "evil" of knowledge and the concept that certain things are not meant to be learned of by man.

This under lying fear of knowledge and comfort in ignorance and complacency continues to this day and most magical teachings and traditions are considered "Evil" and "Works of the Devil" by most people claiming to be religious despite the fact that much of it relates directly to the religion they claim to mold their lives on.

Lucifer and Satan are by no means evil, in fact the concepts of "good" and "evil" do not really exist in magical tradition and by proxy religion. There is but Light, Dark, and Ambivalence, none being more "Good and righteous" than the other and we have seen "God" enact all three on different occasions.

I hope I have helped to "shed some light" on this question.



posted on Aug, 25 2009 @ 04:02 PM
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Originally posted by Shadowflux
Lucifer and Satan are by no means evil, in fact the concepts of "good" and "evil" do not really exist in magical tradition and by proxy religion. There is but Light, Dark, and Ambivalence, none being more "Good and righteous" than the other and we have seen "God" enact all three on different occasions.


Very well said -(actually I like your whole post)-

I think pretty much the same



posted on Aug, 25 2009 @ 04:45 PM
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God is well known for changing names.. Names are important to God especially His own, thats why you had better not blaspheme it!
God changed Abrams name to Abraham which means father of many, He changed Jacobs which means foot catcher or usurper (he was a bit of a con artist!) name to Israel which means strives with God, because he fought with the angel of the Lord and wouldnt let him go until God blessed him. So God did by changing his bad con artist name too one that strove with God and man and won! Jesus' Name Yahoshua litrally means I AM salvation denoting His position and function; God (I AM) and saviour..
Satan' name means adversery/enemy, God changed it from lucifer which means light bearer, to satan because he rebelled and God cast him out from His presence, God sacked him from being a light bearer! So now he is called satan/enemy/adversery because that is what he is!
Hope this helps..



posted on Aug, 25 2009 @ 05:10 PM
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reply to post by Selahobed
 


Actually, the idea of "Using the Lord's name in vain" refers to the magical power behind the secret names of God, one of which is known as The Tetragrammaton. These names contain much power and the flippant use of them can result in terrible consequences.

Names are indeed important because names contain the power of that being or force which they are meant to represent. In addition, the numerology of a name is equally as important and numbers representing names can be used to achieve the same ends. This is evidenced in the book of Revelation which states the name of the Antichrist as 666, a numerological reference.

If you wish to contact Lucifer you should not refer to him as Satan as you will evoke the wrong power.

All of this lies at the heart of Judeo-Christian belief and those beliefs which let up to it's evolution. It is incredibly important to know as much as you are able if you truly wish to practice any religion.



posted on Aug, 25 2009 @ 05:27 PM
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reply to post by plutoxgirl
 


The concept of Light, Dark and Ambivalence is very important. It is a commonly accepted fact that "good" can not exist without "evil", light without dark. However, there is more to it.

Light and Dark, Good and Evil, these are not separate concepts because of the magical law that "All is One" a fundamental law of Alchemy. God is perfect completeness, He is everything and contains within him all that is. The true God, the ultimate power literally IS everything and contains every possibility. Often through out the Bible we see "God" achieving his divine plan through the use of both "good" and "evil", "light" and "dark". God destroys people, cities, and at one time, the entire world. These would ordinarily be considered the actions of an "evil" deity yet they facilitate the "good" outcome of God's divine plan.

When we say that an angel or "demon" (from Greek daemon, a catch all term for spirits and gods) is "dark" we mean that it represents the darker side of the Universe and is usually responsible for what would be considered darker actions. However, a "dark" angel can act by the will of the Most High Creator and therefor can not be considered to truly be committing an act of "evil".

This is the concept of divine duality which is justified and reconciled in the concept of the complete oneness and perfection of all creation. God is at one time light and dark, good and evil, male and female. God encompasses all and all is God, therefore nothing can truly be deemed "evil".

The concept of Ambivalence is the key to the concept of prayer through saints or lesser divine beings such as the worship of angels or demons. God was ambivalent to Jesus's suffering, He neither punished Jesus's tormentors nor relieved Jesus of his duty.

God is so powerful and abstract that He is ambivalent to the majority of human requests. One may wish for material success but it is well known that praying to God for riches and fame is futile at best. This is why there is a host of lesser beings which represent and patronize different ideas and desires. These beings, sometimes known as angels and sometimes demons are not ambivalent to Earthly desires and are often very willing to impart that which is asked as long as it coincides with that being's station.

Since all is God and God is all then you can call upon these lesser forces without fear of committing "sin" or "evil". There is a caveat, however, and that is the idea that the fulfillment of Earthly desires quite often opposes spiritual development. That is the basis of the difference between "light magic" and "dark magic".



posted on Aug, 26 2009 @ 06:56 AM
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reply to post by Shadowflux
 


I enjoyed reading your thoughts on this subject and it appears I have read much of the same or very similar material, at least I feel we are on the same page.

In physics 'Heat' is energy that moves through matter and there is no such thing as 'Cold', it's just the absence of 'Heat'. I have come to view 'Good' and 'Evil' in the same way as there is only the presence of a positive energy and the absence of this energy. 'Cold', or the absence of heat, must exist so that 'Heat' can move through the Universe. One cannot exist without the other, to wipe out one side of a coin is to destroy the coin altogether.

As you have pointed out the complacent propagation of ignorance through fear continues and this desire to propagate ignorance I find disturbing. Using "Fear" in this manner is like 'Evil' and 'Cold' in that it exists as a concept of human imagination and this makes it real to those that believe but it is only the absence of the positive and does not exist on its own. Propagating "Fear" is an 'Evil' endeavor and the only way to conquer this 'Evil' is to face our "Fear", dangle your arm or leg over the bed at night from time to time.


[edit on 8/26/2009 by Devino]



posted on Aug, 27 2009 @ 10:35 AM
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If anyone is interested in the true biblical root of evil, or if you are interested in the full story of The Watchers, including their names, I'd suggest you pick up a copy of The Book of Enoch. The story takes place during Genesis, before the Flood (in fact, the Watchers were the cause of God's wrath).



posted on Aug, 28 2009 @ 11:23 AM
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Originally posted by Shadowflux
If anyone is interested in the true biblical root of evil, or if you are interested in the full story of The Watchers, including their names, I'd suggest you pick up a copy of The Book of Enoch. The story takes place during Genesis, before the Flood (in fact, the Watchers were the cause of God's wrath).


What I have read from the "Book of Enoch" and "The Epic of Gilgamesh" I would argue that "The Watchers" were not the cause of the flood but rather had fore knowledge of this upcoming catastrophe. As the myth goes there was fore warning that happened to save a few.

Many of the ancient myths and legends tell of 4 apocalyptic catastrophes that usher in the age of a new world, similar to Revelations.



posted on Aug, 28 2009 @ 02:38 PM
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reply to post by Devino
 


Well, what I had meant was that it was the outcome of the coupling of angels and man, namely "the Giants", and the knowledge the angels taught to man, that brought about God's wrath.

There is a fragment of the Noah story in Enoch wherein God commands an angel to warn Noah, but that is where Noah is left off, less than a full page.

Also, the Enochian apocalypse is almost the invert of the Biblical Apocalypse, with the good people staying on Earth and the sinners being destroyed




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