First Osama, then Saddam and now Bush Kills Americans and Innocent People

Originally posted by Satyr
Actually, no. It's not our duty to "aid" everyone in the world. I'm not sure where this idiotic excuse to play world policeman came from. Our safety was never in jeopardy because of Iraq, IMO. My sense of what is right and wrong tells me that this is wrong....that we should leave people alone, unless that becomes impossible. We should never make it our policy to get into other's "family fights". In doing so, you only make enemies. Have you ever made the mistake of getting into a family fight, other than one of your own family's? You might understand what I'm saying, if so.

I did not mean to imply that we should be the policemen of the world, simply that if we have the ability to help others, then we should do so. If you were witness to someone trying to kill someone else, would you intervene? Isn't that the "right" thing to do? If we sat by and did nothing, as a country, what would that say about our values? It is okay to kill as long as it is being done miles away? We don't think that everyone should have the right to the same things we have? We, as a country, have high ideals and a certain set of values, and I feel that by fighting for those ideals and values, the soldiers are protecting our very way of life. What if, we sat by and did nothing, and then what if those that were in power grew stronger, and then what if they attacked us again. Then we would fight, but it would already be too late. It is the truly honorable person who fights for what they believe in even when it comes at great cost to them. I do agree that we should not try to push our values on others, such as your family fight example, however if we stood back and did nothing when we had the power to help, would that not also make us enemies?

Originally posted by Satyr
We should never make it our policy to get into other's "family fights". In doing so, you only make enemies. Have you ever made the mistake of getting into a family fight, other than one of your own family's? You might understand what I'm saying, if so.

There is a bigger family that we all belong to, and thats the human family. Untill we realize that, and realize that we must help eachother this world will never be free, and there will never be true peace.

Originally posted by gkoelker
If you were witness to someone trying to kill someone else, would you intervene? Isn't that the "right" thing to do?

Have you personally seen anyone getting killed way over there in Iraq? I can't see that far, and frankly, I don't care. I'm sure there are alot of people getting killed as I type. I won't pretend that it's my responsibility to stop it. It's not. Now, if it happens right in front of me, or in my neighborhood, that's different.

Originally posted by TheEXone
There is a bigger family that we all belong to, and thats the human family. Untill we realize that, and realize that we must help eachother this world will never be free, and there will never be true peace.

I agree, actually. But as many people have pointed out here, this approach isn't very realistic until everyone else realizes this. That's the sad truth of it. The people who can't see that peace comes from within, are those who are fighting, even now. They think someone owes them peace, apparently. Or that peace can be obtained by killing those who also don't see the big picture. Kill the killers!

[Edited on 5-11-2004 by Satyr]

Originally posted by Satyr
Have you personally seen anyone getting killed way over there in Iraq? I can't see that far, and frankly, I don't care. I'm sure there are alot of people getting killed as I type. I won't pretend that it's my responsibility to stop it. It's not. Now, if it happens right in front of me, or in my neighborhood, that's different.

My statement was not made on a personal level. No, I have not personally seen anyone getting killed in Iraq. Have the new media and government officials informed me that it is occurring, yes. You state that if it happens right in front of you or in your neighborhood it is different. As a country, is Iraq not in our global neighborhood? What is the difference? We live on a planet that has become very small. The things that go on in countries across the globe affect us locally. I, for one, do care that there are people out there that are killing innocents, no matter where the killing occurs. I make my argument based on the fact that the leaders of our country knew this was going on and thought stopping it was the right thing to do based on our values as a country. Your argument that you don't care who gets killed in Iraq leads me to believe that perhaps there is a general deterioration in those values. If that is the case, then I would have to ponder what it really is that our soldiers are over there dying to protect when it seems that there are those who "don't care" about what they are fighting for.

There are still jungle tribes who sacrifice people. Should we go stop them too? We used to sacrifice people. It was normal to us, back then. It's just part of the civilization process, apparently. It's not our business to help them evolve, nor to try to force them to evolve. Furthermore, it's impossible. No one is going to solve their problems, but them. In other words, we're merely pretending that we have the power to help them. We don't. In our arrogance, we think everyone should want to be like us, and have what we have. It's just not true, and this is what pisses much of the world off about Americans. Remember, the leaders of our country also thought it was the right thing to put Saddam there in the first place. Who's next, Satan himself?

[Edited on 5-11-2004 by Satyr]

Thought this was newsworthy!

"My friend who's been in Falluga today and for the past few days:.........There is a 13 km long convoy of people trying to reach Baghdad. The Americans are firing bombs, everything, everything they have on them"

"The Americans are dropping cluster bombs and new mortars.............There are people lying dead in the streets"

sydney.indymedia.org...

Originally posted by Satyr
We used to sacrifice people. It was normal to us, back then. It's just part of the civilization process, apparently. It's not our business to help them evolve, nor to try to force them to evolve. Furthermore, it's impossible. No one is going to solve their problems, but them. We don't. In our arrogance, we think everyone should want to be like us, and have what we have. It's just not true, and this is what pisses much of the world off about Americans.
[Edited on 5-11-2004 by Satyr]

I may be wrong, but I did not realize that we used to sacrifice people. And I would have to disagree that sacrificing people is part of the civilization process. There is no fundamental necessity to sacrifice the lives of people that I have found. I do agree that no one will solve their problems but them, however if we can supply them with the tools to do so, then is that wrong? Also, is it not jealousy over what we have some of the cause of the hatred that people have of Americans? America is not just a dream for Americans, the world over, no matter where you go, you will find people that wish to come to America to find freedom, opportunity, security and stability.

Originally posted by drunk
They joined the army to fight for their OWN country not som1 elses so Strangelands is right,

O.K GeniusSage if u were a soldier of eithjer nation and you were ordered to fight som1 else's war what you think?

We, those of us in the military, did not join to "fight wars" as you civilians seem to think. We joined to SERVE OUR COUNTRY. That means doing whatever we are asked to do within the confines of the Constitution, the Uniform Code of Military Justice, and the Geneva Conventions.

You characterize this as "someone else's war". You are wrong. This war belongs to the world. It's a war on terrorism, and those that sponsor and support it.

To say that those who join the military didn�t' know that there was a possibility that they may have to fight in a conflict is absolutely asinine. It's taught, engrained into every aspect of training, and every soldier, sailor, airman and marine knows that they may be called upon to fight and make the ultimate sacrifice for their country.

Defending our country does not just mean our boarders. We live in a global society with partners in every corner of the world. To not defend them in time of need would be tantamount to assigning ourselves the same fate in our time of need.

If you are not in the military, have not served, quit speaking for those of us who do. You have no right, and have no idea what you are talking about.

Originally posted by gkoelker
I may be wrong, but I did not realize that we used to sacrifice people. And I would have to disagree that sacrificing people is part of the civilization process. There is no fundamental necessity to sacrifice the lives of people that I have found.

"Sacrifice" may not be the correct term, but we sure killed people for stupid reasons, and it was considered just a normalcy. Look at the Salem witch hunts...horrid # went on, and was just accepted by the majority. People were beaten into confessions. Hangings were afternoon entertainment...people were drawn and quartered.

I do agree that no one will solve their problems but them, however if we can supply them with the tools to do so, then is that wrong?

As far as I'm concerned, there's no point. In trying to help them in the past, what have we done? We've drawn attacks on our homeland. Is that what we had in mind? Good going!

Also, is it not jealousy over what we have some of the cause of the hatred that people have of Americans? America is not just a dream for Americans, the world over, no matter where you go, you will find people that wish to come to America to find freedom, opportunity, security and stability.

I really don't think jealousy/envy is even significant enough to be considered a foremost reason for the hatred of the US. People who hate us, hate us mainly because we're far too involved in everything. Everywhere they look, they see America this, and America that. It's gotten to the point that other countries barely have an identity, and this is what bothers them most. Not everyone wants to be a subsidiary of America, no matter how many TV's we might have per household. The US gov't has their dirty fingers in everything, and some people see it as globalization. I know I do.

Originally posted by Satyr

As far as I'm concerned, there's no point. In trying to help them in the past, what have we done? We've drawn attacks on our homeland. Is that what we had in mind? Good going!

So, then it is only allright to help those that want help? If we get hit while trying to help someone else take out the people that hit us, we should just crawl into a hole with our tail between our legs and let the person we were trying to help fend for themselves? I for one do not see the sense in that.

It's gotten to the point that other countries barely have an identity, and this is what bothers them most. Not everyone wants to be a subsidiary of America, no matter how many TV's we might have per household.

I was not speaking of how many TV's we have per household, I was speaking of the fact that we have enough food to eat, the ability to find a job, the power to do what we wish with our lives. I do not think that everyone wants to be a subsidiary of America, but many of them might like to be able to have enough to eat, or enjoy some of the other freedoms we have that the soldiers throughout history have given to us. Is it wrong of us to try and help others achieve even some of the things we have? Is it wrong for us to be there for others in their time of need? Then, as was already stated, if we are there for others, when the day comes and we need someone, they will be the first ones lending a hand to us.

#1 The Iraqi government was stable and civlized before the illegal invasion.

#2 More died and are dying violently in the Iraq than before the U.S. and the coliation got there.

#3. No president would liberate a country just out of "being nice" Bush and his kooks had to lie to people to get into this war, a war in which you have to lie to the people becomes a war against the citizens and the other country. Look at all the other countries that could use "liberating"

#4 It is idiocy to even try to push a democratic form of government on a peoples whos culture/religion is not very compliant with such government systems.. just leave them and their culture be.

I support the European decision to stay out of war, to build up their economy and to advance society.

Originally posted by RedOctober90
#1 The Iraqi government was stable and civlized before the illegal invasion.

#2 More died and are dying violently in the Iraq than before the U.S. and the coliation got there.

#3. No president would liberate a country just out of "being nice" Bush and his kooks had to lie to people to get into this war, a war in which you have to lie to the people becomes a war against the citizens and the other country. Look at all the other countries that could use "liberating"

#4 It is idiocy to even try to push a democratic form of government on a peoples whos culture/religion is not very compliant with such government systems.. just leave them and their culture be.

I support the European decision to stay out of war, to build up their economy and to advance society.

STABLE AND CIVILIZED???

You have to be joking, right?

Stable? A dictatorship that allowed only one candidate on the ballot and then claimed 100% win for the incumbent?

Stable? A ten year war with it's Islamic neighbor Iran?

Stable? After having it's ass handed to it on a platter, it invaded the tiny country of Kuwait because it new it could win?

Civilized? On taking control of the country, it's leader murdered a vast number of government leaders in a purge of those who may have had differing opinions, taking them outside and having them shot on the spot with no trial what so ever?

Civilized? Murdering thousands of Kurd civilians, men, women and children by the use of chemical weapons?

Civilized? Draining the southern wetlands to attempt to exterminate the Shiite populace there that disagreed with him?

Civilized? Torturing and murdering hundreds of thousands of Iraqi's and dumping them in mass graves?

You have a very warped sense of what is civilized and stable. I think the question is how civilized and stable YOU are if you honestly think Iraq was so before the war...

Time to stop with the American (Does all right) patriot stuff. Let's look at the realities.

MORE people are being slaughtered now in this war than before we invaded. People are loosing jobs, the Iraqi economy is crushed, the civil war is breaking out.

BEFORE we got there, people had jobs, less people were dying.. no civil war, an active economy.

It's not the job of the U.S. to play world supercop, it's necessary to solve problems here at home before we start screwing up other countries, it's causing more terrorism! It is not a good thing to continue to ignite the islamic fundementalists even more.. so when a city is smoldering in your country then you may understand the consequences of forcing unwanted government systems/culture on the Islamic people who are not compliant with such concepts like "Freedom" and "democracy"

Why not just leave there culture alone? Just because they do things vastly differently doesen't mean there culture is wrong and ours is right. Who says demoracy is the only way? Especially when it's forced on people who do not want it/not capable of it.

The Europeans are doing it right like I said, worrying about fixing the problems at home before spending vast resources and lives on things that don't really help the homeland.


I am at the moment readying myself for the day when the major terror strike occurs in the U.S.A. homeland. While others are sitting around praising Bush who lied to his own people to go to war and kill thousands.


[Edited on 11-5-2004 by RedOctober90]

Originally posted by RedOctober90

Time to stop with the American (Does all right) patriot stuff. Let's look at the realities.

MORE people are being slaughtered now in this war than before we invaded. People are loosing jobs, the Iraqi economy is crushed, the civil war is breaking out.

BEFORE we got there, people had jobs, less people were dying.. no civil war, an active economy.

It's not the job of the U.S. to play world supercop, it's necessary to solve problems here at home before we start screwing up other countries, it's causing more terrorism! It is not a good thing to continue to ignite the islamic fundementalists even more.. so when a city is smoldering in your country then you may understand the consequences of forcing unwanted government systems/culture on the Islamic people who are not compliant with such concepts like "Freedom" and "democracy"

Why not just leave there culture alone? Just because they do things vastly differently doesen't mean there culture is wrong and ours is right. Who says demoracy is the only way? Especially when it's forced on people who do not want it/not capable of it.

The Europeans are doing it right like I said, worrying about fixing the problems at home before spending vast resources and lives on things that don't really help the homeland.


I am at the moment readying myself for the day when the major terror strike occurs in the U.S.A. homeland. While others are sitting around praising Bush who lied to his own people to go to war and kill thousands.

Mister, you are either blind or stupid, or both. Everything you said is absolute bull.

More people dying now? Excuse me, are you deaf? Can you read? HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS TORTURED AND DUMPED IN MASS GRAVES!!! THOUSANDS OF KURDS GASSED!!!

Get the picture?

before we got there, people were oppressed, lived their lives in fear, had no say in what they did, could not speak their minds. Now, they have the freedom to speak out against whatever they wish. Jobs? They've just been through a war, man!!! Do you think things will all just go back to normal in a day or two? Get a clue!

The Europeans you speak of are Germany, France, and Russia, all who had ulterrior motives for us not to go in. They were afraid we would find what we did, that they were making illegal deals with Saddam.

Get a clue....

Less people were dying?

How about the thousands who were starving every year because of Saddam's abuse of the oil for food program?

How about the over 400,000 people he killed simply because they spoke out against his tyranny?

How about the thousands more that he would have killed over the next few years?

How about the utter fear and terror people had to endure when saying anything about the government, the knowledge that there was no hope because one man decided long ago he would become a god above his people?

Estimates put the civilian deaths durring the whole war at slightly above 10,000, and only a handful are dying now and that is due more to the terrorists who have infliltrated the country than anything our troops have done.

No one ever reports the common everyday things that happen in Iraq, and the continuing recontruction of the country because simply death is more of a newsmaker. That does not mean that the whole country is falling apart.

It's also increasing the amount of islamic fundementalism, I don't need suicide bombers and deadly attacks in my country. This war in Iraq is increasing the chances, once again Bush cares more about his own personal agenda than the citizens. To me there is nothing more important than the citizens, none of those politicans mean nadda to me.

Good diplomatic ties with Europe were hurt badly by this war, we have Spain pulling out of there, soon more will probably begin leaving.

I do not wish to have to pay to defend others freedoms so that years later they can come back and give us hell.

Billlions are being spent which could of been used to improve security here on the motherland and to improve on other services. The U.S. will be there for decades... we are dealing with Islamic fundementalists here....they are going to raise hell as long as we are there. Keep counting the bodybags of your fallen comrades.

And they still leave the U.S./Mexican border wide open... yet they'll do more to protect the Iraqi border rather than the U.S. border.... idiocy. Yet they do not want private citizens taking up arms on the border.. well someone has to do it!!

OUR (directed to Americans) country comes first.... once we can fix the problems here then maybe we can fix problems we created in other countries.

The American imperialism is beginning to have it's toll on the world, why do you think Russia is building up again and doing all sorts of ICBM tests?

BUsh can't be president of two countries... a democracy in Iraq is a joke! It's not going to happren! Quit messing with foreign cultures and pushing unwanted forms of government/culture.

[Edited on 11-5-2004 by RedOctober90]

THREAT OF DENIAL OF "FREEDOM OF SPEECH" BY seekerof:

Orang....did you comprehend what I wrote initially?
I didn't need to hear a discertation from you about your views and warnings.
I sent this u2u to you to mention that you need to PROPERLY LINK/CITE your source of articles, etc.
I have done it for you since you failed to grasp what I was saying.
It will be the last time. Next time you post an article, etc. that is not given proper citation by link, etc. your post will be deleted.

seekerof

TextTo seekerof: Interesting you refuse to support Op-Ed threads; it will be interesting to see if you are one of those Neocons that denies Freedom of Speech to Americans with an opinion that disagrees with your Neocon culture.

Re: LINK/CITE your source of articles:

The daily news media documents the truth of everything I say, and all you need to do is start to start reading and thinking about the truth for a change instead of Neocon hate rhetoric.

Your Neocon philosophy of Watch and Do Nothing except defend Bush regardless of his criminal negligence is killing Americans and YOU WOULD RATHER CENSOR FREE SPEECH THAN THINK.

[Edited on 12-5-2004 by orang]

Originally posted by gkoelker
So, then it is only allright to help those that want help?

You got it! In fact, it's impossible to help those who don't want help. You only end up infuriating them. Look at the war on drugs, and what a complete failure it is.

I was not speaking of how many TV's we have per household, I was speaking of the fact that we have enough food to eat, the ability to find a job, the power to do what we wish with our lives. I do not think that everyone wants to be a subsidiary of America, but many of them might like to be able to have enough to eat...

I was speaking of our wealth in general. Unfortunately, that kind of aid only comes from becoming a subsidiary of the US. It's a package deal, apparently....an unavoidable side effect. We are the Borg. How many times do we need to kick the bees nest before we learn?

[Edited on 5-12-2004 by Satyr]

Originally posted by Satyr
You got it! In fact, it's impossible to help those who don't want help. You only end up infuriating them.

Who is to judge whether or not the average people of Iraq wanted help or not? I am not speaking of the radicals, the everyday people that were being oppressed and killed. Don't you suppose that they may have wanted help but didn't know who to ask? The children that were losing their parents, or the girls who could not go to school, don't you think they might have wanted help? We are seeing retalliation from the radical elements in Iraq as they struggle for power, and as they struggle to find out how their country works. All new countries have such growing pains. Does this mean that we should stop trying to help the average citizens that need it the most?

Originally posted by gkoelker
Who is to judge whether or not the average people of Iraq wanted help or not? I am not speaking of the radicals, the everyday people that were being oppressed and killed. Don't you suppose that they may have wanted help but didn't know who to ask? The children that were losing their parents, or the girls who could not go to school, don't you think they might have wanted help? We are seeing retalliation from the radical elements in Iraq as they struggle for power, and as they struggle to find out how their country works. All new countries have such growing pains. Does this mean that we should stop trying to help the average citizens that need it the most?

Again, quite frankly, I don't care. There are literally billions of people who need help in this world. I'm not saying that I wouldn't help, but I am saying there's no point. If you can't help them all, why help any of them? There are also lots of bums in the street who would love to have some of your money. If you're really that charitable, why don't you go find them and give them all of yours? We have plenty of people here who need help, and are asking for it.
Besides, our gov't does not help anyone without some underlying alternate agenda. As mentioned above, we don't go around just helping people because we're nice. That's a great little vision of the US, but it's just not true.