Originally posted by TruthParadox
I doubt the human 'ability' to 'know' what is outside our senses.
I don't completely discount it.
But... I've heard a lot of stories of people 'knowing' or 'understanding' or having personal experiences, OBE, etc.
They hardly ever seem to match up.
More reason for me to doubt people who claim to know.

And you should. If you were to just believe me, then that would be foolish on your part. Because anyone can make such a claim. I do not blame you for not believing me, and if you did I would call you foolish.

But if you understand what I'm talking about, then great. I completely agree with the quote welfard put up there. Doubt me, doubt me hard, and doubt me until you have no need to doubt.

What I do not like however is when people call what I have experience ignorant and just my imagination. It was much much more than just what can be imagined. It wasn't just images, it was a completely different perspective on everything.

I "see" the world differently now, but nothing within my 5 senses changed. Physically the world is the same.

It's like when you first realized the way politicians use double speak. Nothing physically changed in how you seen them, but how you perceive them changes. You start to see the manipulation and spin for what it is etc.

Where did I say that?
I'm not denying your experiences or calling them false.
I'm saying that ultimately your perspective is limited, as is mine.

Here's what I know:
1) You don't allow the possibility that you could be wrong
2) As far as we know, anything is possible.

Put the two together...
Doesn't compute.

If you simply realized your limitations, and that you could be wrong, I wouldn't be arguing against you now.

Well if you aren't calling my experiences fake and such, then I can't say too much. But it certainly felt that way. It is human nature for us to deny in others what we ourselves lack.

For me to be wrong and to find out I'm wrong would be like you finding out that math is wrong. It's not just something I "see", it's something I understand. And that understanding goes deeper than I can even express.

But there are things I can be wrong about and so forth. It's just that some things are on that basic level of understanding as math is.

Originally posted by badmedia
Not at all.
As far as I know, anything is possible.
And I have a very small (ok, large) hunch that the same could be said of you, though you may never admit it.
To you, only one thing is possible.
God created this existence and we're part of a whole, experiencing stuff - just because.

Everything is possible. But in the end all things that are possible exist - even if not being observed/experienced.

Now, for all I really know, I could be some brain in vat with some scientist creating reality for me. And in that way my reality is completely dictated by that scientist. And for all we know, maybe that scientist is just a bit of AI on somekids computer, who's picking his nose and laughing as the scientists feels all so powerful controlling my brain in the vat, while having no clue he is just an image on a computer screen. And on and one we can go.

Realities inside realities inside realities etc. The possibilities are endless, and as far as what my current position is within all these possibilities, I don't know. And what we do know has come from observation and so forth. So while in this reality, science is king for discovering the nature of the reality and so on.

But I understand that in the end, where the original source is, and that it is all just really 1 big universe, even with the "multiverses" and there is only 1 true observer of all things. And it is that observer within me that gives me the ability to percieve at all. The stuff in between that - no clue.

It was the fact that I couldn't know what was real or not that I started to put such a huge emphasis on understanding. I realized I couldn't trust what a man told me, even if he was giving me his honest opinion, and that I couldn't really trust reality as a whole. But then I look at math. Well having 1 item in 1 hand, and 2 items in another hand - that goes beyond just any reality. That is a basic understanding, and is therefore a universal understanding. And when I look at the world, I try to see it on that level of understanding.


[edit on 8/25/2009 by badmedia]

I have heard of this study before, being an atheist myself. Although I do not completely deny the existence of a God like figure I would rather meet it than believe it for nothing, but a more religious person does not seek out answers for its the will of God, that is the answer. As to an atheist goes for a more scientific approach looking for answers in knowledge instead of leaning to one answer. Just because they show a lower IQ doesn't mean they don't have the ability to know as much as anyone else. One of the greatest physicist and astrologist to ever live was also a minister, he stated that he knows that God built it and he wanted to know how he made it work. In my opinion the only reason for an IQ drop is simply the rejection of scientific reasoning.

MUAHAHAH!!! I always knew we were smarter!! sorry religious maniacs but we win! XD

I suppose most people are more intelligent than Isaac Newton or Blaise Pascal? What about people who are excellent scholars but believe in a god?

Atheists think they're smarter, but that's not always the case. They're just louder about how superior they are to religious people for not believing in "fairy tales".